NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[Come-from-Beyond]

Floating point for "scientific calculations" is and always has been *perfectly fine*.

Money is not "scientific calculations" and *everyone in the money business* knows that you don't use binary floating point.

Again my simple example:

Code:

#define test( v1, op, v2 ) if( v1 op v2 ) printf( #v1 " " #op " " #v2 "\n" )

#include <stdio.h>
#include <math.h>

int main( )
{
   volatile double a, b, c;
   char buf[ 50 ];

   a = 13.06;
   b = 0.54;
   sprintf( buf, "%lf", a + b );
   c = atof( buf );

   printf( "a = %lf, b = %lf, c = %lf\n", a, b, c );

   test( c, >, 13.60 );
   test( c, ==, 13.60 );
   test( c, <, 13.60 );
   test( a + b, >, 13.60 );
   test( a + b, ==, 13.60 );
   test( a + b, <, 13.60 );

   return 0;
}

Basically it shows that 13.06 + 0.54 != 13.60 and this is because 0.1 (and 0.01) *cannot* be represented in binary floating point (same as 1/3 cannot be represented in decimal).

The problems are *not just rounding issues* but actually are *logic issues* (and therefore not obvious to "math" people who are only thinking about things like rounding).

It means that code which say says is A > 0 might *fail* because of a simple addition or subtraction.

As was already said this problem is solved by using EPSILON.

[ChuckOne]

As was already said this problem is solved by using EPSILON.

I fear, I have to disagree.

One does not solve the problem of missing information by adding an epsilon. If I have $1000000000000000000000 and want to add $0.01, then it is $1000000000000000000000.01 and NOT $1000000000000000000000 as it would be with FP. In the example above, also data is missing, so that it cannot be reconstructed with 100% probability.

That is the whole issue with IEEE 754. Other approaches like fixed point (with arbitrary precision) etc. are the secure way to go at least in financial sector.

[Come-from-Beyond]

As was already said this problem is solved by using EPSILON.

I fear, I have to disagree.

One does not solve the problem of missing information by adding an epsilon. If I have $1000000000000000000000 and want to add $0.01, then it is $1000000000000000000000.01 and NOT $1000000000000000000000 as it would be with FP.

That is the whole issue with IEEE 754. Other approaches like fixed point (with arbitrary precision) etc. are the secure way to go at least in financial sector.

Haha, u can't do the same using integers too. 

[ChuckOne]

As was already said this problem is solved by using EPSILON.

I fear, I have to disagree.

One does not solve the problem of missing information by adding an epsilon. If I have $1000000000000000000000 and want to add $0.01, then it is $1000000000000000000000.01 and NOT $1000000000000000000000 as it would be with FP.

That is the whole issue with IEEE 754. Other approaches like fixed point (with arbitrary precision) etc. are the secure way to go at least in financial sector.

Haha, u can't do the same using integers too.  

Was not saying this.

Btw. different languages have "real" integers in the sense of unlimited size. And if you want 100% security, use those fixed point with unlimited size. Nobody needs to wrap his mind how to convert an integer forth and back between its currency counterpart by dividing by 10 or so.

[limingz]

With the crazy copy launches of all kinds of alt coins.  Do you think btc and nxt will be buried by them.

[TwinWinNerD]

With the crazy copy launches of all kinds of alt coins.  Do you think btc and nxt will be buried by them.

Do any of those coins provide any new features or anything new?

[bitcoinpaul]

Obviously, all these shitcoins get buried under BTC, NXT, Ethereum, ...

[zorke]

With the crazy copy launches of all kinds of alt coins.  Do you think btc and nxt will be buried by them.

Exactly, I read a Black Coin thread few days ago and all they talk about is pump, dump and price!!
They have one dev, only feature that they have is interest rate of 1% yearly.
OK they are mentioning multipools all the time as well.
Apart from these two things they have nothing.
Yet somehow they are sure they will be the next big thing.

I don't understand!!

All these clones are just living short lives on the current fame and are instruments for pump & dumps in order for big players to make BTCs.
That is really all it is to it.

[TwinWinNerD]

With the crazy copy launches of all kinds of alt coins.  Do you think btc and nxt will be buried by them.

Exactly, I read a Black Coin thread few days ago and all they talk about is pump, dump and price!!
They have one dev, only feature that they have is interest rate of 1% yearly.
OK they are mentioning multipools all the time as well.
Apart from these two things they have nothing.
Yet somehow they are sure they will be the next big thing.

I don't understand!!

All these clones are just living short lives on the current fame and are instruments for pump & dumps in order for big players to make BTCs.
That is really all it is to it.

Yeah, many coins have a big amount of followers, but NO innovation and no Dev team. Big blahblah and no substance.

[instacalm]

With the crazy copy launches of all kinds of alt coins.  Do you think btc and nxt will be buried by them.

Let me quote Vitalik for you:

"I personally think the 2.0 stuff is by far the most interesting part of the cryptocurrency scene in general... Ok, you can send money instantly from A to B -- congrats, you know. There's a whole bunch of services that let you do that in China. Sure, Bitcoin is an improvement in a lot of ways. But that by itself isn't really enough of an improvement to get the entire world excited and get [it] switch over on to a cryptographic ecosystem. I think the reason why people want cryptocurrencies and cryptoprotocols is precisely because of some of these 2.0 smart contracts and decentralised incentivised protocol ideas; like that's the sort of thing that you can absolutely not do with traditional finance, no matter how hard you try" [hear]

Now ask yourself, do "crazy copy launches of all kinds of alt coins" have a future?

[TwinWinNerD]

With the crazy copy launches of all kinds of alt coins.  Do you think btc and nxt will be buried by them.

Let me quote Vitalik for you:

"I personally think the 2.0 stuff is by far the most interesting part of the cryptocurrency scene in general... Ok, you can send money instantly from A to B -- congrats, you know. There's a whole bunch of services that let you do that in China. Sure, Bitcoin is an improvement in a lot of ways. But that by itself isn't really enough of an improvement to get the entire world excited and get [it] switch over on to a cryptographic ecosystem. I think the reason why people want cryptocurrencies and cryptoprotocols is precisely because of some of these 2.0 smart contracts and decentralised incentivised protocol ideas; like that's the sort of thing that you can absolutely not do with traditional finance, no matter how hard you try"

Now ask yourself, do "crazy copy launches of all kinds of alt coins" have a future?

While i agree that the 2.0 features are the most intresting thing about cryptos, i doubt that the majority of people give a shit. If they will ever use those features, then without knowing that they do!

[instacalm]

While i agree that the 2.0 features are the most intresting thing about cryptos, i doubt that the majority of people give a shit. If they will ever use those features, then without knowing that they do!

Yes. Just like protocols such as http or smtp indeed. Lotta people use these protocols on a daily basis, but hardly think about what they're using.

[TwinWinNerD]

While i agree that the 2.0 features are the most intresting thing about cryptos, i doubt that the majority of people give a shit. If they will ever use those features, then without knowing that they do!

Yes. Just like protocols such as http or smtp indeed. Lotta people use these protocols on a daily basis, but hardly think about what they're using.

Exactly, but Vitalik talks about getting the world exited. That won't happen. Period.

I hope it would, but most people don't even appreciate the internet even though they use it 16hours a day...

Sad but true!

[instacalm]

While i agree that the 2.0 features are the most intresting thing about cryptos, i doubt that the majority of people give a shit. If they will ever use those features, then without knowing that they do!

Yes. Just like protocols such as http or smtp indeed. Lotta people use these protocols on a daily basis, but hardly think about what they're using.

Exactly, but Vitalik talks about getting the world exited. That won't happen. Period.

I hope it would, but most people don't even appreciate the internet even though they use it 16hours a day...

Sad but true!

There's a lot of excitement about the internet in the world & there are lots of different people around -- the world is a diverse place.

I believe that we are just at the beginning, aren't we?

[jaime]

Vitalik is a good guy, but quoting him on any other thing that it's not programming... risky.

[instacalm]

Vitalik is a good guy, but quoting him on any other thing that it's not programming... risky.

Hola jaime, that's a pretty redundant comment

[TwinWinNerD]

While i agree that the 2.0 features are the most intresting thing about cryptos, i doubt that the majority of people give a shit. If they will ever use those features, then without knowing that they do!

Yes. Just like protocols such as http or smtp indeed. Lotta people use these protocols on a daily basis, but hardly think about what they're using.

Exactly, but Vitalik talks about getting the world exited. That won't happen. Period.

I hope it would, but most people don't even appreciate the internet even though they use it 16hours a day...

Sad but true!

There's a lot of excitement about the internet in the world & there are lots of different people around -- the world is a diverse place.

We are just at the beginning.

Sure there is. Many people do that, still most don't understand it or appreciate it.

A study in austria (my homecountry) made a comparison. If the internet were a book, than most austrians would be illiterate

[instacalm]

Sure there is. Many people do that, still most don't understand it or appreciate it.

A study in austria (my homecountry) made a comparison. If the internet were a book, than most austrians would be illiterate

Sure, it all comes down to how one decides to interpret "getting the world excited".

Just to make sure, what I quoted was meant to illustrate the/a future trend of cryptographic/digital (decentralised) financial networks in order to show that Btc copycat clones are nothing but smoke and mirrors.

Viele Grüße

[TwinWinNerD]

Sure there is. Many people do that, still most don't understand it or appreciate it.

A study in austria (my homecountry) made a comparison. If the internet were a book, than most austrians would be illiterate

Sure, it all comes down to how one decides to interpret "getting the world excited".

Viele Grüße

That is also true!
Vielen Dank

[salsacz]

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