NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[jl777]

100 accounts should be enough, as long as they have high enough stakes
all the complaining about unfair distribution, but it actually has some benefits
things like NEM, if they really do have even distribution, will have a much harder time to keep secure
with NXT, as long as the NXT millionaires care enough, NXT will be secure
If you had millions of NXT, would you bother to run a node?

You are basically saying the top 1% can protect the 99%, who can all turn off their computers and sleep soundly.
That is, as long as the top 1% are rich enough. This naturally leads to the question, what percentage of all available stake do
these 100 captains of Nxt-ristry need to be commanding?

Is this provable math or NxtMinnow like guesstimation? Anyway we could get metclyl (math guy) to weigh in?

I am pretty sure my math is sound on this one.

As long as there is 51% stake (of forging nodes) that are the good guys, the bad guys cant confirm their evil blocks

So, if only 40% are forging, then if the NXTristry control more than 20%, everyone else is safe

Edit: while I am a generalist I do have a "math guy" hat I wear on occasion.  good thing I didnt lose a bet and had to eat it! (ignore the two spaces after the period, purely coincidence)

[Daedelus]

Is this provable math or NxtMinnow like guesstimation?

Now who is passive aggressive

[pandaisftw]

For the record I have made suggestions about how to incentivise people to run open clients. My idea was to have a  "jackpot"  built into the core that distributes a large sum to a random forger at a random time every day. If you are not forging you can't win it and since you don't know when it's coming you always have to forge to be eligible. You could take a tiny bit from the other transactions to compile this prize. The odds of winning would be pretty low but it would be enough incentive to make people run clients.

Isn't this "jackpot" called "forging"? The more tickets (NXT) you own, the higher chance you have to win, yes?

If it isn't based on stake (aka random), what's to prevent someone from creating 10000000 accounts and winning all the jackpots? This was discussed in the very beginning of NXT - doing it this way would cause a large fragmentation of accounts (everyone would create as many 1 NXT accounts as possible), and that really is not an ideal situation.

[BrianNowhere]

For the record I have made suggestions about how to incentivise people to run open clients. My idea was to have a  "jackpot"  built into the core that distributes a large sum to a random forger at a random time every day. If you are not forging you can't win it and since you don't know when it's coming you always have to forge to be eligible. You could take a tiny bit from the other transactions to compile this prize. The odds of winning would be pretty low but it would be enough incentive to make people run clients.

Isn't this "jackpot" called "forging"? The more tickets (NXT) you own, the higher chance you have to win, yes?

If it isn't based on stake (aka random), what's to prevent someone from creating 10000000 accounts and winning all the jackpots? This was discussed in the very beginning of NXT - doing it this way would cause a large fragmentation of accounts (everyone would create as many 1 NXT accounts as possible), and that really is not an ideal situation.

Well the "jackpot" would have to be pretty big, much bigger than a typical forging reward, so I would not call it synonymous with forging. However the point on people creating tons of accounts is valid and I hadn't considered that. I didn't say I had the best idea, just pointing out that I do more than "complain", which was the accusation I was responding to.

However, you might still be able to counter the fragmentation problem by doing something like having a reasonable minimum balance
required for an account to be eligible to win the jackpot. You might also be able to make it so multiple accounts can't forge on a single computer. If they are splitting up forging accounts on multiple computers then that would only be good for the network and
would be a legitimate way to try and increase your odds.

[BrianNowhere]

Is this provable math or NxtMinnow like guesstimation?

Now who is passive aggressive

Passive aggressive would be spitting in nxtMinnow's oatmeal. I made a joke about NxtMinnow out in the open, which is just aggressive aggressive.

CIYAM would get the joke.

[Daedelus]

Does anyone know if we still have a forging pool?

Apologies for the lazy question  

[BrianNowhere]

I am pretty sure my math is sound on this one.

As long as there is 51% stake (of forging nodes) that are the good guys, the bad guys cant confirm their evil blocks

So, if only 40% are forging, then if the NXTristry control more than 20%, everyone else is safe

Edit: while I am a generalist I do have a "math guy" hat I wear on occasion.  good thing I didnt lose a bet and had to eat it! (ignore the two spaces after the period, purely coincidence)

Finally something resembling a clear answer. Rings pretty close to the ol' BTC 51% attack thing.
I thought that Nxt was supposed to be safe from a 51% attack and even a 90% attack.

If a group or government can covertly obtain 51% of all Nxt can they bring down the network?

[Daedelus]

Is this provable math or NxtMinnow like guesstimation?

Now who is passive aggressive

Passive aggressive would be spitting in nxtMinnow's oatmeal. I made a joke about NxtMinnow out in the open, which is just aggressive aggressive.

CIYAM would get the joke.

We'll call it a cultural difference then 

If you're sticking around, harmony666 might do you a good deal on some Nxts 


However, I must go so I hope it is sunny wherever you are. See you on the other side 

[Daedelus]

Someone get the link to CfBs transparent forging thread, then Ciyans duscusions on the pros and cons of using a penalty and we'll all meet back here un 6 hours when weve caught up 

I jest I'm really going now

[jl777]

I am pretty sure my math is sound on this one.

As long as there is 51% stake (of forging nodes) that are the good guys, the bad guys cant confirm their evil blocks

So, if only 40% are forging, then if the NXTristry control more than 20%, everyone else is safe

Edit: while I am a generalist I do have a "math guy" hat I wear on occasion.  good thing I didnt lose a bet and had to eat it! (ignore the two spaces after the period, purely coincidence)

Finally something resembling a clear answer. Rings pretty close to the ol' BTC 51% attack thing.
I thought that Nxt was supposed to be safe from a 51% attack and even a 90% attack.

If a group or government can covertly obtain 51% of all Nxt can they bring down the network?

they better do it soon, before CfB completes the full TF implementation
once that is in place, all the nodes can see that it is being attacked and switch to listening to only the good nodes
it is not about some fancy math algos, with transparency every node can see what the bad nodes did, so more a detection of bad forging is what is needed

James

P.S. Due to liquidity issues, if anybody tried to purchase even 10% of NXT, it will go to .01 BTC. I cant estimate the price it would go to if someone really was shooting for 51% ownership.

[jl777]

does anybody know of a portable'ish C source code that obtains the computer's IP address?

[btc2nxt]

It seems some reasonable stuff from Texas

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/news/texas-department-banking-reveals-regulatory-treatment-virtual-currencies-texas-money-services-act/2014/04/03

Exchange of cryptocurrency for sovereign currency between two parties is not money
transmission.

Exchange of cryptocurrency for sovereign currency through a third party exchanger is
generally money transmission.

[msin]

Wtb lots of NXT
Only escrow!

I can do escrow if you want and find someone to take up your offer.

make sure he includes the fee when he sends you yours. Kept me waiting for hours by not including it for mine.

lol, why should i pay for the fee? I sent what was sent to me^^

remind me to never use you as escrow.  you as the middleman had certain responsibilities here

Layoff, he did this for free as a favor to me, I donated the Nxt from Brian.

[msin]

Get your facts straight, msin wanted an escrow. Also stop bitching about waiting for a transfer that will clearly confirm if you dont even spend the amount then....

This is such a kindergarden here

Dude...You just trashed your reputation for the sake of 1/10th of a millibit.

The correct response would have been to apologize to Brian for the oversight.

Instead you spend multiple posts defending your poor etiquette. Show some class.

Man, losing respect for whiners in this thread, he sent exactly what was sent to him, there was no urgency in the transaction. What's the point in bitching about it?  Brians Nxt is now in the hands of someone actually contributing something, that's the point.

[lucky88888]

isn't this beautiful  

i need testnxts! please!
13647442964959355584

[BrianNowhere]

P.S. Due to liquidity issues, if anybody tried to purchase even 10% of NXT, it will go to .01 BTC. I cant estimate the price it would go to if someone really was shooting for 51% ownership.

Well the way I envision it, the entity could accumulate Nxt slowly so as not to set off any price raising alarms. Just have thousands of different accounts slowly buying it up til one day, POW right in the kisser.

Thanks for the answer though. I hope it all works out. Good luck.

[BrianNowhere]

Get your facts straight, msin wanted an escrow. Also stop bitching about waiting for a transfer that will clearly confirm if you dont even spend the amount then....

This is such a kindergarden here

Dude...You just trashed your reputation for the sake of 1/10th of a millibit.

The correct response would have been to apologize to Brian for the oversight.

Instead you spend multiple posts defending your poor etiquette. Show some class.

Man, losing respect for whiners in this thread, he sent exactly what was sent to him, there was no urgency in the transaction. What's the point in bitching about it?  Brians Nxt is now in the hands of someone actually contributing something, that's the point.

We worked it out dude, now you wanna come in and stir shit up again?

[msin]

Get your facts straight, msin wanted an escrow. Also stop bitching about waiting for a transfer that will clearly confirm if you dont even spend the amount then....

This is such a kindergarden here

Dude...You just trashed your reputation for the sake of 1/10th of a millibit.

The correct response would have been to apologize to Brian for the oversight.

Instead you spend multiple posts defending your poor etiquette. Show some class.

Man, losing respect for whiners in this thread, he sent exactly what was sent to him, there was no urgency in the transaction. What's the point in bitching about it?  Brians Nxt is now in the hands of someone actually contributing something, that's the point.

We worked it out dude, now you wanna come in and stir shit up again?

Are you referring to me buying all your Nxt and then you continuing to post here for some reason?  You act like you belong here.

[eatrader]

Is there a market for Aliases?

[pandaisftw]

Well the "jackpot" would have to be pretty big, much bigger than a typical forging reward, so I would not call it synonymous with forging. However the point on people creating tons of accounts is valid and I hadn't considered that. I didn't say I had the best idea, just pointing out that I do more than "complain", which was the accusation I was responding to.

This is why it is important that NXT is an ecosystem, not simply a currency. The end-goal is not to have the highest price possible, but to have as many services ontop of NXT sending transactions. PoS/TF is ideal for this - PoW is simply too slow to accommodate a large transaction bandwidth. If one day we do in-fact achieve 1000 TPS (of course, a lot of work to get there), that's 60k transactions per block. And each of these transactions have a fee.

Also, Bitcoin mining is only profitable because of the gigantic subsidy. Take a look at this (the latest Bitcoin block):

https://blockchain.info/block-index/382205/000000000000000073a67bd8f462faaa3ea9f18dda19d44976ba718be9d442ed

The subsidy is 20,600% larger than the transactions fees in the Bitcoin network. The problem with this subsidy is that Bitcoin holders are paying for it in the form of huge inflation (10% per year currently). And eventually, Bitcoin will have no subsidies, so it will have to be able to function off of fees as well.

However, you might still be able to counter the fragmentation problem by doing something like having a reasonable minimum balance
required for an account to be eligible to win the jackpot. You might also be able to make it so multiple accounts can't forge on a single computer. If they are splitting up forging accounts on multiple computers then that would only be good for the network and
would be a legitimate way to try and increase your odds.

Minimum balance had been discussed also. At what point do you draw the line? 100k? Then "poor NXTers" certainly cannot forge. Who controls this line? Will this line scale with price? (not possible via a decentralized method, by the way) Anyways, no matter where you draw the line, people will make as many accounts as their wallet allows.

A single person with 10000 accounts forging on 10000 computers is just as bad as having all of them on one computer. That one person is still in control of those 10000 nodes, which can all be relaying malicious information to other nodes. This is why hallmarked nodes exist to combat zombie nodes (there was a zombie attack in NXT's early days).

I think if we look back in the history of this thread, we will find this exact discussion somewhere. There should not be a gamable solution implemented into the core. This is why something like nodecoin can built on-top of NXT, so even if it is gamed, NXT-core will remain unaffected. Stake (NXT), which is guaranteed to be non-gamed, should be the basis for all other actions.

Pandaisftw