NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[starik69]

pls leave us in peace.

...

Seems like never

[pandaisftw]

Mining in Nxt relies on cooperation of people and even forces it. Without cooperation Nxt becomes weak and can be easily attacked. It's like a system in unstable equilibrium, if people stop to care about cooperation then Nxt will fail very fast.

The crux of most of my questioning has been in regards to one fact. There's a serious potential flaw that once Nxt is more widely distributed that if people don't "cooperate" ie: run an open client, the system will fail. This was clearly the subtext in BCNext's 3rd plan released appropriately on April Fools Day. He is clearly stating that Nxt won't work if poor Nxters don't forge. This was what I suspected for some time and now that it's confirmed, it makes a lot of sense why C-F-B gets so evasive when he's asked about these sorts of things. But pay no attention to the man behind the curtain or the big elephant in the room.  Everyone who is not a cheerleader is labeled a troll. Without questioning and gauging answers here I might have made a big mistake and stayed invested in it.

Not sure how you managed to fit "poor Nxters" into that sentence...

A Bitcoin dev also admitted that Bitcoin will fail (following the current trend) if people don't run nodes. This is not a NXT-specific problem.

Also, many people forge, even those with small stakes. Forging isn't just for fees, forging secures your investment. So don't think this is an altruistic activity - there is an economic incentive. And then there are other ways to encourage forging and running nodes on top of that, such as businesses who need a robust network or nodecoin. Not to mention, forging is so cheap you can just leave it running in the background.

Honestly, you have a bad habit of blowing things in isolation out of proportion. No shit, NXT will die if no one forges. No shit, Bitcoin will die if no one mines or runs nodes. Ripple will die if no one runs their servers (or whatever they are called). Why don't you think of a way to provide an higher incentive to forge (either through economic incentive or some other method) instead of constantly crying wolf?

[BrianNowhere]

Not sure how you managed to fit "poor Nxters" into that sentence...

A Bitcoin dev also admitted that Bitcoin will fail (following the current trend) if people don't run nodes. This is not a NXT-specific problem.

Also, many people forge, even those with small stakes. Forging isn't just for fees, forging secures your investment. So don't think this is an altruistic activity - there is an economic incentive. And then there are other ways to encourage forging and running nodes on top of that, such as businesses who need a robust network or nodecoin. Not to mention, forging is so cheap you can just leave it running in the background.

Honestly, you have a bad habit of blowing things in isolation out of proportion. No shit, NXT will die if no one forges. No shit, Bitcoin will die if no one mines or runs nodes. Ripple will die if no one runs their servers (or whatever they are called). Why don't you think of a way to provide an higher incentive to forge (either through economic incentive or some other method) instead of constantly crying wolf?

I agree BTC has the same issue, but it's much further in the future. I never said I was a big Bitcoin fan. It has many problems which is why I'd like to get into whatever will be better. I thought that would be Nxt but now I see it will be something else. Mining Bitcoin is MUCH more profitable than forging Nxt is so it's not a worry for many many years that people won't mine them. The fatal flaw with Nxt is that anyone not holding at least 100K Nxt will practically NEVER generate blocks, yet these same people will NEED to keep a program running on their machine 24/7 because if they don't,  in the words of BCNext, the network will become weaker and weaker (and ultimately fail or be attacked). This community's best answer so far to this problem: nodecoin.

Why would anyone trust a system with such a GAPING unknown variable at the core of the entire system? Since no one can know if enough people will run open nodes, then no one can know if it's even safe to use long term. It's a potential sitting duck. Financial markets need a certain degree of certainty and with Nxt there is a huge degree of uncertainty about something that the entire system's future depends on.

For the record I have made suggestions about how to incentivise people to run open clients. My idea was to have a  "jackpot"  built into the core that distributes a large sum to a random forger at a random time every day. If you are not forging you can't win it and since you don't know when it's coming you always have to forge to be eligible. You could take a tiny bit from the other transactions to compile this prize. The odds of winning would be pretty low but it would be enough incentive to make people run clients.

[yuriygeorge]

Is there a way to make Nxt more anonymous? Or is it built-in? I see in the explorer you can see all the transactions... Jw

[Daedelus]

Graviton will forge out of self interest, their business depends on it
NMAC will forge out of self interest, their business depends on it
AnonSilver will forge out of self interest, their business depends on it
'CfB enterprises' will forge out of self interest, their business depends on it


Nxt is taking aim at businesses ('wall street guys' in cfb talk). The features of Nxt will appeal to them and will hopefully come on board, if enough time is given to allow the devs to do their work. In a recent fudstorm, there were complaints about Nxt not being divisible.  They were told its in dev as we speak (not that they listened). Now we have nxtquants.


If you want to take a dig at nxt, go ahead. But give it time before you bang on about the same issues! At least a week, I'd say two  Maybe post on the tech forum to find out how things are going. If you come back a day later, you won't be popular

In the future, fingers crossed, Apple 2 will forge because it is... Google 3 will forge because it is... etc

Let's move on

[kashish948]

Is there a way to make Nxt more anonymous? Or is it built-in? I see in the explorer you can see all the transactions... Jw

I don't think so

[TwinWinNerD]

Is there a way to make Nxt more anonymous? Or is it built-in? I see in the explorer you can see all the transactions... Jw

JL wrote a guide on how to use TOR with NXT

[BrianNowhere]

Graviton will forge out of self interest, their business depends on it
NMAC will forge out of self interest, their business depends on it
AnonSilver will forge out of self interest, their business depends on it
'CfB enterprises' will forge out of self interest, their business depends on it


Nxt is taking aim at businesses ('wall street guys' in cfb talk). The features of Nxt will appeal to them and will hopefully come on board, if enough time is given to allow the devs to do their work. In a recent fudstorm, there were complaints about Nxt not being divisible.  They were told its in dev as we speak (not that they listened). Now we have nxtquants.


If you want to take a dig at nxt, go ahead. But give it time before you bang on about the same issues! At least a week, I'd say two   Maybe post on the tech forum to find out how things are going. If you come back a day later, you won't be popular

In the future, fingers crossed, Apple 2 will forge because it is... Google 3 will forge because it is... etc

Let's move on

Here's the big question that I haven't been able to get an answer from anyone here about. I don't care anymore because I have divested myself but others might want to try to get an answer.

If there are say, 100,000 Nxt accounts, what percentage of them need to be running open clients for the system to be secure?
Is it 10% 20% 50% 75%? Does anyone even know? Nobody answers when I ask.

The only reason I've harped on the same question is because no one has given a satisfactory answer. In fact this is when the devs get very slippery and evasive and people start calling me a troll.

[jl777]

It seems some reasonable stuff from Texas

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/news/texas-department-banking-reveals-regulatory-treatment-virtual-currencies-texas-money-services-act/2014/04/03

[Daedelus]

Is there a way to make Nxt more anonymous? Or is it built-in? I see in the explorer you can see all the transactions... Jw

You can start a topic on nxtforum to find out about nxtcash. James is developing it and is tied in with his multisig gateway. Uber anonymous were told. Don't expect it overnight  

Or pm him.

Or he'll magically pop up and help us out  

[jl777]

Graviton will forge out of self interest, their business depends on it
NMAC will forge out of self interest, their business depends on it
AnonSilver will forge out of self interest, their business depends on it
'CfB enterprises' will forge out of self interest, their business depends on it


Nxt is taking aim at businesses ('wall street guys' in cfb talk). The features of Nxt will appeal to them and will hopefully come on board, if enough time is given to allow the devs to do their work. In a recent fudstorm, there were complaints about Nxt not being divisible.  They were told its in dev as we speak (not that they listened). Now we have nxtquants.


If you want to take a dig at nxt, go ahead. But give it time before you bang on about the same issues! At least a week, I'd say two   Maybe post on the tech forum to find out how things are going. If you come back a day later, you won't be popular

In the future, fingers crossed, Apple 2 will forge because it is... Google 3 will forge because it is... etc

Let's move on

Here's the big question that I haven't been able to get an answer from anyone here about. I don't care anymore because I have divested myself but others might want to try to get an answer.

If there are say, 100,000 Nxt accounts, what percentage of them need to be running open clients for the system to be secure?
Is it 10% 20% 50% 75%? Does anyone even know? Nobody answers when I ask.

The only reason I've harped on the same question is because no one has given a satisfactory answer. In fact this is when the devs get very slippery and evasive and people start calling me a troll.

100 accounts should be enough, as long as they have high enough stakes
all the complaining about unfair distribution, but it actually has some benefits
things like NEM, if they really do have even distribution, will have a much harder time to keep secure
with NXT, as long as the NXT millionaires care enough, NXT will be secure
If you had millions of NXT, would you bother to run a node?

[jl777]

Is there a way to make Nxt more anonymous? Or is it built-in? I see in the explorer you can see all the transactions... Jw

You can start a topic on nxtforum to find out about nxtcash. James is developing it and is tied in with his multisig gateway. Uber anonymous were told. Don't expect it overnight  

Or pm him.

Or he'll magically pop up and help us out  

Actually, all the services I am building are built on top of the NXTprotocol layer.
multisig is one such thing
so is NXTmixer and NXTcash
so is nodecoin!

I need to wait for clarity on parallel chains for NXTcash, but my opinion is that NXTcash (zerocoin) by itself is not really enough due to usability issues. I designed NXTmixer to work in tandem with NXTcash to get the uber anonymity.

Goods news is that NXTmixer is a standalone service with benefits in and of itself and I have already started coding the second version. proof of concept version was just a one off test of crypto handshake

No timeframes on these as I work on half a dozen projects at once. When a project gets close to done, I go into release mode for that project. multigateway is the current project in release mode, but stalled the last three days due to testnet resets and lack of testNXT.

James

[Daedelus]

Graviton will forge out of self interest, their business depends on it
NMAC will forge out of self interest, their business depends on it
AnonSilver will forge out of self interest, their business depends on it
'CfB enterprises' will forge out of self interest, their business depends on it


Nxt is taking aim at businesses ('wall street guys' in cfb talk). The features of Nxt will appeal to them and will hopefully come on board, if enough time is given to allow the devs to do their work. In a recent fudstorm, there were complaints about Nxt not being divisible.  They were told its in dev as we speak (not that they listened). Now we have nxtquants.


If you want to take a dig at nxt, go ahead. But give it time before you bang on about the same issues! At least a week, I'd say two   Maybe post on the tech forum to find out how things are going. If you come back a day later, you won't be popular

In the future, fingers crossed, Apple 2 will forge because it is... Google 3 will forge because it is... etc

Let's move on

Here's the big question that I haven't been able to get an answer from anyone here about. I don't care anymore because I have divested myself but others might want to try to get an answer.

If there are say, 100,000 Nxt accounts, what percentage of them need to be running open clients for the system to be secure?
Is it 10% 20% 50% 75%? Does anyone even know? Nobody answers when I ask.

The only reason I've harped on the same question is because no one has given a satisfactory answer. In fact this is when the devs get very slippery and evasive and people start calling me a troll.

I can't tell you. But you would need at least one more variable to take into account the hypothetical distribution in an arbitrary number of accounts.

Anyone interested, start a thread and send it to our maths guys. mtchl would be your starting point. If you want specialist info, go to the specialists. Not to the bus stop and then ask every passer by  

Edit: or prove james wrong

[Daedelus]

Is there a way to make Nxt more anonymous? Or is it built-in? I see in the explorer you can see all the transactions... Jw

You can start a topic on nxtforum to find out about nxtcash. James is developing it and is tied in with his multisig gateway. Uber anonymous were told. Don't expect it overnight  

Or pm him.

Or he'll magically pop up and help us out  

Actually, all the services I am building are built on top of the NXTprotocol layer.
multisig is one such thing
so is NXTmixer and NXTcash
so is nodecoin!

I need to wait for clarity on parallel chains for NXTcash, but my opinion is that NXTcash (zerocoin) by itself is not really enough due to usability issues. I designed NXTmixer to work in tandem with NXTcash to get the uber anonymity.

Goods news is that NXTmixer is a standalone service with benefits in and of itself and I have already started coding the second version. proof of concept version was just a one off test of crypto handshake

No timeframes on these as I work on half a dozen projects at once. When a project gets close to done, I go into release mode for that project. multigateway is the current project in release mode, but stalled the last three days due to testnet resets and lack of testNXT.

James

Thanks for the correction 

I'll pm you for the full details for the glossary entries 

[BrianNowhere]

100 accounts should be enough, as long as they have high enough stakes
all the complaining about unfair distribution, but it actually has some benefits
things like NEM, if they really do have even distribution, will have a much harder time to keep secure
with NXT, as long as the NXT millionaires care enough, NXT will be secure
If you had millions of NXT, would you bother to run a node?

You are basically saying the top 1% can protect the 99%, who can all turn off their computers and sleep soundly.
That is, as long as the top 1% are rich enough. This naturally leads to the question, what percentage of all available stake do
these 100 captains of Nxt-ristry need to be commanding?

Is this provable math or NxtMinnow like guesstimation? Anyway we could get metclyl (math guy) to weigh in?

[jl777]

100 accounts should be enough, as long as they have high enough stakes
all the complaining about unfair distribution, but it actually has some benefits
things like NEM, if they really do have even distribution, will have a much harder time to keep secure
with NXT, as long as the NXT millionaires care enough, NXT will be secure
If you had millions of NXT, would you bother to run a node?

You are basically saying the top 1% can protect the 99%, who can all turn off their computers and sleep soundly.
That is, as long as the top 1% are rich enough. This naturally leads to the question, what percentage of all available stake do
these 100 captains of Nxt-ristry need to be commanding?

Is this provable math or NxtMinnow like guesstimation? Anyway we could get metclyl (math guy) to weigh in?

I am pretty sure my math is sound on this one.

As long as there is 51% stake (of forging nodes) that are the good guys, the bad guys cant confirm their evil blocks

So, if only 40% are forging, then if the NXTristry control more than 20%, everyone else is safe

Edit: while I am a generalist I do have a "math guy" hat I wear on occasion.  good thing I didnt lose a bet and had to eat it! (ignore the two spaces after the period, purely coincidence)

[Daedelus]

Is this provable math or NxtMinnow like guesstimation?

Now who is passive aggressive

[pandaisftw]

For the record I have made suggestions about how to incentivise people to run open clients. My idea was to have a  "jackpot"  built into the core that distributes a large sum to a random forger at a random time every day. If you are not forging you can't win it and since you don't know when it's coming you always have to forge to be eligible. You could take a tiny bit from the other transactions to compile this prize. The odds of winning would be pretty low but it would be enough incentive to make people run clients.

Isn't this "jackpot" called "forging"? The more tickets (NXT) you own, the higher chance you have to win, yes?

If it isn't based on stake (aka random), what's to prevent someone from creating 10000000 accounts and winning all the jackpots? This was discussed in the very beginning of NXT - doing it this way would cause a large fragmentation of accounts (everyone would create as many 1 NXT accounts as possible), and that really is not an ideal situation.

[BrianNowhere]

For the record I have made suggestions about how to incentivise people to run open clients. My idea was to have a  "jackpot"  built into the core that distributes a large sum to a random forger at a random time every day. If you are not forging you can't win it and since you don't know when it's coming you always have to forge to be eligible. You could take a tiny bit from the other transactions to compile this prize. The odds of winning would be pretty low but it would be enough incentive to make people run clients.

Isn't this "jackpot" called "forging"? The more tickets (NXT) you own, the higher chance you have to win, yes?

If it isn't based on stake (aka random), what's to prevent someone from creating 10000000 accounts and winning all the jackpots? This was discussed in the very beginning of NXT - doing it this way would cause a large fragmentation of accounts (everyone would create as many 1 NXT accounts as possible), and that really is not an ideal situation.

Well the "jackpot" would have to be pretty big, much bigger than a typical forging reward, so I would not call it synonymous with forging. However the point on people creating tons of accounts is valid and I hadn't considered that. I didn't say I had the best idea, just pointing out that I do more than "complain", which was the accusation I was responding to.

However, you might still be able to counter the fragmentation problem by doing something like having a reasonable minimum balance
required for an account to be eligible to win the jackpot. You might also be able to make it so multiple accounts can't forge on a single computer. If they are splitting up forging accounts on multiple computers then that would only be good for the network and
would be a legitimate way to try and increase your odds.

[BrianNowhere]

Is this provable math or NxtMinnow like guesstimation?

Now who is passive aggressive

Passive aggressive would be spitting in nxtMinnow's oatmeal. I made a joke about NxtMinnow out in the open, which is just aggressive aggressive.

CIYAM would get the joke.