NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[ChuckOne]

[...]
Let's assume, we have a secure way to make transactions from one account to another. For instance, via a escrow account.
w, x, y, z are balances of the respective accounts; t1, t2 are points in time

Code:

t1 | t2
-----------
w  | w + 10
x  | x - 5
y  | y - 10
z  | z + 5

Who paid what to whom? I can't tell. Maybe, anyone else can.

One could say, well this example is really artificial and a real transaction graph is actually sparse with completely different amounts. So you actually get something like that:

Code:

t1 | t2
-----------
x1 | x1 + 100
x2 | x2
x3 | x3
x4 | x4
x5 | x5 - 100
x6 | x6
x7 | x7 + 2000
x8 | x8
x9 | x9 - 2000

Well, that is why I ask why splitting up larger transaction in to smaller pieces in order to cover them up into the masses. In this case, if you really want to transfer money anonymously from one account to another you must either wait or pay a variable fee. The variable fee results from dismissing the remainder of a larger transaction if you aren't willing to wait for the completion.

To finished that example. Obfuscating the way the Nxts go:

Code:

t1 | t2              | t3               | t4
--------------------------------------------------
x1 | x1 + 100        | x1 + 100         | x1 + 600
x2 | x2              | x2 + 900         | x2 + 400
x3 | x3              |                  |
x4 | x4              | x4 - 900         | x4 - 400
x5 | x5 - 100        | x5 - 100         | x5 - 600
x6 | x6              |                  |
x7 | x7 + 100        | x7 + 1000        | x7 + 2000
x8 | x8              |                  |
x9 | x9 - 100        | x9 - 1000        | x9 - 2000

and so on..

[jl777]

zerocoin alpha algo published and with source code. Porting instructions to new blockchain published.

The profs are busy and probably won't go out of their way to help us, but they want their theories to be implemented and deployed. They are not against it, otherwise why are they posting integration instructions?

Let's do this.

NXTcash will make NXT totally unique. Combine that with TF and massive TPS. I can't predict what that will do to valuation. Let's just say, big boosts.

I say we allocate 3 million NXT from community funds for this project, plus whatever other donations. Not saying to spend it all at once, but to use to for the express purpose of making NXTcash implemented.

When klee originally went crazy happy over zerocoin, I thought he was being eccentric, but I didn't know as much back then. After spending a lot of time researching, I realized that having the first crypto with the properties of cash would be MORE significant than anything else.

The world is rapidly drifting into a global electronic police state, where anything and everything we do is recorded, analyzed, scrutinized, etc. We used to be able to use normal cash to buy things. Now, cash transactions are prohibited for most things in america. Soon all cash will become illegal. This is normal cash. Without a crypto replacement for cash, the world will be controlled by people who know what everybody else is doing with their money.

George Orwell's 1984 was just a few decades too early

Politics aside, I doubt anybody here likes their local big brother snooping into what they are doing. Let's implement NXTcash so the world can still have cash of any kind

James

[SkillRoad]

Why the NTX coin price is falling ? Any bad new or dump ?

Don't worry. Remember the days when BTC was less than a dollar? These are those days for NXT. These drops are all excellent opportunities to buy. Don't look back some day and kick yourself for not buying now.

Invest in the future 

[jl777]

[...]
Let's assume, we have a secure way to make transactions from one account to another. For instance, via a escrow account.
w, x, y, z are balances of the respective accounts; t1, t2 are points in time

Code:

t1 | t2
-----------
w  | w + 10
x  | x - 5
y  | y - 10
z  | z + 5

Who paid what to whom? I can't tell. Maybe, anyone else can.

One could say, well this example is really artificial and a real transaction graph is actually sparse with completely different amounts. So you actually get something like that:

Code:

t1 | t2
-----------
x1 | x1 + 100
x2 | x2
x3 | x3
x4 | x4
x5 | x5 - 100
x6 | x6
x7 | x7 + 2000
x8 | x8
x9 | x9 - 2000

Well, that is why I ask why splitting up larger transaction in to smaller pieces in order to cover them up into the masses. In this case, if you really want to transfer money anonymously from one account to another you must either wait or pay a variable fee. The variable fee results from dismissing the remainder of a larger transaction if you aren't willing to wait for the completion.

To finished that example. Obfuscating the way the Nxts go:

Code:

t1 | t2              | t3               | t4
--------------------------------------------------
x1 | x1 + 100        | x1 + 100         | x1 + 600
x2 | x2              | x2 + 900         | x2 + 400
x3 | x3              |                  |
x4 | x4              | x4 - 900         | x4 - 400
x5 | x5 - 100        | x5 - 100         | x5 - 600
x6 | x6              |                  |
x7 | x7 + 100        | x7 + 1000        | x7 + 2000
x8 | x8              |                  |
x9 | x9 - 100        | x9 - 1000        | x9 - 2000

and so on..

No offense, but you need deep mathematical proofs like in http://spar.isi.jhu.edu/~mgreen/ZerocoinOakland.pdf

Any ad hoc method will most likely have holes and if it does, there is no point

James

[bithic]

With a divide and conquer approach, we might be able to get zerocoin functionality for NXT before zerocoin!

I'm not sure it's not a theft...

Not a theft, they want us to port, they describe exactly how to do it.

They wanted bitcoin to adopt their libzerocoin
They wanted altcoins to adopt their solution
Nobody did, so they were forced to start developing their own coin
They are professors, not really into making new coins

If this is true then maybe someone should approach them again and tell them what we're planning to do, and ask for their help. Mention that this work will be paid for from the bounty. Klee approached them once, but that was earlier when they may have thought Nxt was a scam, and Klee is not a developer so probably not able to open a discussion on the technical details.

If approached by a developer they might be more willing to join the effort. If they don't want to help, then the community can still go ahead and do it without them.

[jl777]

With a divide and conquer approach, we might be able to get zerocoin functionality for NXT before zerocoin!

I'm not sure it's not a theft...

its definitely not theft. the idea of theft requires that someone else be deprived of property. copying code doesn't deprive the other person of his copy. i mean maybe its immoral but if so than not because its theft, it would have to be some new moral construct that doesnt have a name yet. something meaning "immoral copying". i vote that we call it flibber.

Or we could just ask them... or ask their permission...

Not sure we will get a response, but I will ask them

James

[Anon136]

With a divide and conquer approach, we might be able to get zerocoin functionality for NXT before zerocoin!

I'm not sure it's not a theft...

its definitely not theft. the idea of theft requires that someone else be deprived of property. copying code doesn't deprive the other person of his copy. i mean maybe its immoral but if so than not because its theft, it would have to be some new moral construct that doesnt have a name yet. something meaning "immoral copying". i vote that we call it flibber.

Or we could just ask them... or ask their permission...

+1

i mean why not be polite about it. no sense in flibbering all over someone elses work unnecessarily.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Regarding privacy, maybe this could help:


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279249.0

Unfortunatelly, this doesn't help.

[marcus03]

@CfB: what is the plan for opening accounts for forging in clients? API call in API v2?

[xyzzyx]

I just designed and 3d-printed a NXT-keychain

http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/899322nxtkeychain.png

Nice!  

If the STL file is small enough, would you be willing to put the STL on the blockchain as a AM payload?   You know, for history's sake.

Yes, of course I'm willing to do that. The STL is around 250KB, is that small enough? I also could do some design modifications if you have some suggestions. And how would I put that STL on the blockchain?

The STL is too large by far unfortunately.  Have you ever used OpenSCAD?  Perhaps the keychain could be procedurally modeled and thus fit in under 1000 characters?

[TwinWinNerD]

I am no programmer, but i have a proposal to solve the mixing problem.

How about a pooled approach that is not traceable?

We have at specific times per day (or maybe once a day if traffic is low) a mixing event where everyone can send their coins to an automated mixing address that collects all coins. Once the specific time comes, the logic of the address creates packs of 10000 NXTs and sends them to specific addresses. For example, if you send 100.000 NXT to that address, your coins will be split into 10k pieces on 10 addresses. Those addresses are generated by the mixing algo and the private code is sent to original sender via encrypted address that is only readable if the private key of the original address is known.

Rules:
You can send whatever amount between 1000 and higher
The splitting follows those rules, Balance/10000 --> remainder/1000 --> remainder /100 --> rest is donation(? or maybe remainder/10?)
E.g. If you send 17.200 then you get 1 10k, 7 1k and 2 100 outputs.
The interval of the mixing is depending on the traffic. Only if enough people participate, the mixing will be anonymous.
The passwords are send per AM and are encrypted per the private key of the original account. (i guess that is possible)

What do you think?

[Come-from-Beyond]

@CfB: what is the plan for opening accounts for forging in clients? API call in API v2?

I could do it if u guys cooperate and give me something like a specification for API v2. Brainstorming is over as I see.

[jl777]

I am no programmer, but i have a proposal to solve the mixing problem.

How about a pooled approach that is not traceable?

We have at specific times per day (or maybe once a day if traffic is low) a mixing event where everyone can send their coins to an automated mixing address that collects all coins. Once the specific time comes, the logic of the address creates packs of 10000 NXTs and sends them to specific addresses. For example, if you send 100.000 NXT to that address, your coins will be split into 10k pieces on 10 addresses. Those addresses are generated by the mixing algo and the private code is sent to original sender via encrypted address that is only readable if the private key of the original address is known.

Rules:
You can send whatever amount between 1000 and higher
The splitting follows those rules, Balance/10000 --> remainder/1000 --> remainder /100 --> rest is donation(? or maybe remainder/10?)
E.g. If you send 17.200 then you get 1 10k, 7 1k and 2 100 outputs.
The interval of the mixing is depending on the traffic. Only if enough people participate, the mixing will be anonymous.
The passwords are send per AM and are encrypted per the private key of the original account. (i guess that is possible)

What do you think?

Need mathematical proof, peer reviewed, etc.
Common sense stuff unfortunately will almost always have holes. Even if we did something like this, we would need to document it and then pay some cryptographer to review it.

Why not just implement what is already there?

James

[Come-from-Beyond]

I am no programmer, but i have a proposal to solve the mixing problem.

How about a pooled approach that is not traceable?

We have at specific times per day (or maybe once a day if traffic is low) a mixing event where everyone can send their coins to an automated mixing address that collects all coins. Once the specific time comes, the logic of the address creates packs of 10000 NXTs and sends them to specific addresses. For example, if you send 100.000 NXT to that address, your coins will be split into 10k pieces on 10 addresses. Those addresses are generated by the mixing algo and the private code is sent to original sender via encrypted address that is only readable if the private key of the original address is known.

Rules:
You can send whatever amount between 1000 and higher
The splitting follows those rules, Balance/10000 --> remainder/1000 --> remainder /100 --> rest is donation(? or maybe remainder/10?)
E.g. If you send 17.200 then you get 1 10k, 7 1k and 2 100 outputs.
The interval of the mixing is depending on the traffic. Only if enough people participate, the mixing will be anonymous.
The passwords are send per AM and are encrypted per the private key of the original account. (i guess that is possible)

What do you think?

Everyone must use it or it's vulnerable to a Knapsack problem solver again. I'm thinking of accepting that 1M offer coz it looks like the guy is on a right way.

[jl777]

With a divide and conquer approach, we might be able to get zerocoin functionality for NXT before zerocoin!

I'm not sure it's not a theft...

its definitely not theft. the idea of theft requires that someone else be deprived of property. copying code doesn't deprive the other person of his copy. i mean maybe its immoral but if so than not because its theft, it would have to be some new moral construct that doesnt have a name yet. something meaning "immoral copying". i vote that we call it flibber.

Or we could just ask them... or ask their permission...

+1

i mean why not be polite about it. no sense in flibbering all over someone elses work unnecessarily.

I reached out to zerocoin to get permission and hopefully more.

James

P.S. They are encouraging people to port. From their website:
***
libzerocoin is only a library. To use Zerocoin in practice it must be integrated with a client. See our Integrating with Bitcoin clients page for more on this. We’re looking for example client integrations and of course would be willing to provide pointers. Send us an email and we’ll link it.
***

[cc001]

I just designed and 3d-printed a NXT-keychain

http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/899322nxtkeychain.png

Nice!  

If the STL file is small enough, would you be willing to put the STL on the blockchain as a AM payload?   You know, for history's sake.

Yes, of course I'm willing to do that. The STL is around 250KB, is that small enough? I also could do some design modifications if you have some suggestions. And how would I put that STL on the blockchain?

The STL is too large by far unfortunately.  Have you ever used OpenSCAD?  Perhaps the keychain could be procedurally modeled and thus fit in under 1000 characters?

Yes, I'm familiar with OpenSCAD (great tool, btw), but doing the design with FreeCAD was much easier and faster

[jl777]

I am no programmer, but i have a proposal to solve the mixing problem.

How about a pooled approach that is not traceable?

We have at specific times per day (or maybe once a day if traffic is low) a mixing event where everyone can send their coins to an automated mixing address that collects all coins. Once the specific time comes, the logic of the address creates packs of 10000 NXTs and sends them to specific addresses. For example, if you send 100.000 NXT to that address, your coins will be split into 10k pieces on 10 addresses. Those addresses are generated by the mixing algo and the private code is sent to original sender via encrypted address that is only readable if the private key of the original address is known.

Rules:
You can send whatever amount between 1000 and higher
The splitting follows those rules, Balance/10000 --> remainder/1000 --> remainder /100 --> rest is donation(? or maybe remainder/10?)
E.g. If you send 17.200 then you get 1 10k, 7 1k and 2 100 outputs.
The interval of the mixing is depending on the traffic. Only if enough people participate, the mixing will be anonymous.
The passwords are send per AM and are encrypted per the private key of the original account. (i guess that is possible)

What do you think?

Everyone must use it or it's vulnerable to a Knapsack problem solver again. I'm thinking of accepting that 1M offer coz it looks like the guy is on a right way.

Why not zerocoin? Any unproven tech will need to be reviewed by cryptographic authority and we know that is not so easy.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Why not zerocoin? Any unproven tech will need to be reviewed by cryptographic authority and we know that is not so easy.

I'll read Zerocoin whitepaper tomorrow and will think. Today is too late, time to drink milk and go to bed soon.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Regarding mixer,

Does is have to be Input --> {1 minute} --> Output.

Or, some Nxts can wait in the mixer longer than others?

It's up to a user I think. I could wait ~24 hours if I were selling slaves or drugs.

[NxtChg]

@CfB: what is the plan for opening accounts for forging in clients? API call in API v2?

I could do it if u guys cooperate and give me something like a specification for API v2. Brainstorming is over as I see.

If you're doing API 2, it would be a perfect opportunity to switch to the new address format!

Old API will continue working with old account IDs and new will return new addresses.