NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[pandaisftw]

We are talking about the RIGHT to be able to vote.

Everyone've right to vote. Even if he've 0 NXT, he can make suggestion to make Nxt stronger. Find a flaw, for example. In decentralized system no one can bound anyone's right to vote.

And the guys which hold a few thousands are able to vote more than the guys which are holding a few cents!

Disagree. The weights of opinions/suggestions/proposals should be placed by the guys that DO (and decision'll be maked by them as well: coding, installing, buying/selling, anything). Competence! That's right, you can't place your own weight precisely in close to perfect (IMO) system, cos u're living in subjective reality. In science world u've to prove u're right. In social world u've to convince (community) u're right. That's simple.

THIS IS NATURAL! If the votes are resulting in bad decisions, these decisions were made by those who will loose the most. But then, let it be this way..

Disagree with both statements. It's not natural. It's not OK to build system u expect to fail right away.

Only NXT stakeholders have a right to vote in the NXT system, so at minimum someone has to have 1 NXT. Then, to extend that, how do you prevent someone from spamming a ton of 1 NXT accounts? You have to tie voting power directly to NXT to prevent cheating (which so far, is the only proposed way that is 100% cheat proof).

For some reason you think that all large stakeholders are incompetent and all small stakeholders are competent? I'd place thousands of more times trust in someone with a large stake because I know he has a lot more at risk, and is unlikely to want to harm the NXT ecosystem. I wouldn't trust someone with 1 NXT as much, as he may be a troll that spamming faucets so he can try to mess up NXT. So technically since the large stakeholder has more invested, he will research more, and thus be more informed about the issue at hand.

Even if 1 or 2 large stake holders do want to harm the system, they still have to convince dozens of other large stakeholders to hurt their own investment. Not going to happen.

As for natural or unnatural, all I know is someone creating tens of thousands of small accounts just to vote is very unnatural. So unless someone proposes a solution of creating a cheat-less method of voting that represents everyone equally, 1 NXT = 1 Vote is the most secure, non-gameable, and natural way to do it currently. I, personally, am open to new ideas, but so far none have been proposed.

So far the list non-gameable solutions look like this:

1) 1 NXT = 1 Vote
2) ...?

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[Damelon]

also like i said before i dont expect people to understand everything on one fly by. i just want to provide the arguments in addition to the claims because thats better than just making unsupported claims. the point is not to teach them everything about nxt. its to get them interested. i think claims + arguments is more likely to acheve this than just random claims. Even if they dont listen to the arguments or understand them, the fact that they are there is value in and of its self.

*edit* they will get, oh visa level transaction volume, oh instant transactions, oh lower cost, and they have arguments to support the claims. then they can either replay it to listen to the arguments carefully or they can go do more research on their own.

I think your text would be much better suited to a longer format, for instance in a segment of the podcast.

Compressing it in one minute is not going to work, and would water your effort.

In one minute you can get maybe one or two concepts, presented rather simply through.

This is not because people are stupid, but because of how people process information.

For what you are aiming for, I think you'd need 15-30 minutes.

[newsilike]

So, just curious...How many of these spots will run in three months?  And what is the estimated number of listeners per spot?

I think its two episodes per week, with a listener base of 10000.

So we are paying a CPM of around $75 for this advertising.  That's really expensive.

I'm not saying these audio spots are a bad idea, I don't know.  I'm saying $20K is a LOT of real money for an advertising budget.

If we are ready to spend that kind of cash, we should consider print ads in Bitcoin Magazine.  

For $20K we could get full page color ads on page 1 for the next three years in a printing of 25,000 in each month's production run.

http://bitcoinmagazine.com/advertising/

http://btcmag.9wizards.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/BITCOIN-Pricing-List-Interactive-Issues-17-19_web.pdf

I'm with Rickyjames on this one.
I feel like the prices they are asking is steep as hell and they already invited us to speak there for free, didn't they? NXT is the future so they'll have to talk about us frequently if THEY want to be relevant.

Also after hearing some of these samples I get a feeling that we are a cheap brand desperately trying to get attention. NOt a good look. If it was interactive, sure, but this is just random soundbites

I see your point and I think it's a valid one.
If we could somehow manage to get someone on the show, that would be amazing!
We still got the community fund ~13kk Nxt so thats quite a lot of money.  We could do multiple things.
It's really a joke actually if we compare our marketing efforts to those of Ethereum.
We got the transparent forging, not them  

A community fund of 13K NXT is only 5% of the 275K NXT is about to be spent / blown on these audio ads.  I think some serious thought needs to be put into whether or not these are worth the high price being charged especially since page one color ads last and last and last in a prime print location while a voice message is gone in 60 seconds.  Plus the print ad has the follow-on URL / QR.  Plus it's three times cheaper.

Wasn't it 13 Million?
CfB was selling me some out of this fund to cover the payment of someone who would review the code.

[rickyjames]

Honestly, I can barely follow you reading.

Listening to this will be just noise. Especially if you try to squeeze it in one minute....

This is waaaay too wordy. Especially for a 1 minute spot. It's not close to easily digestible, as it needs to be. I would turn off before the end of the second sentence. Some friendly constructive criticism.

Not trying to hammer down a good intentions, but one minute verbal spot is just not the place to introduce deeply complex new concepts, starting with NXT itself.  On a cost per word basis, on a cost per information basis, print in Bitcoin Magazine is the way to go, not sound bites on Let's Talk Bitcoin.

Which one establishes our cool blockchain logo brand?

http://bitcoinmagazine.com/

[Anon136]

i think claims + arguments is more likely to acheve this than just random claims.

Well, I think that's the problem here. This time, I don't believe you are right.

well maybe its just me but if i hear someone make claims with no arguments i completely ignore it. maybe other people just accept claims at face value.

[jl777]

So, just curious...How many of these spots will run in three months?  And what is the estimated number of listeners per spot?

I think its two episodes per week, with a listener base of 10000.

So we are paying a CPM of around $75 for this advertising.  That's really expensive.

I'm not saying these audio spots are a bad idea, I don't know.  I'm saying $20K is a LOT of real money for an advertising budget.

If we are ready to spend that kind of cash, we should consider print ads in Bitcoin Magazine.  

For $20K we could get full page color ads on page 1 for the next three years in a printing of 25,000 in each month's production run.

http://bitcoinmagazine.com/advertising/

http://btcmag.9wizards.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/BITCOIN-Pricing-List-Interactive-Issues-17-19_web.pdf

I'm with Rickyjames on this one.
I feel like the prices they are asking is steep as hell and they already invited us to speak there for free, didn't they? NXT is the future so they'll have to talk about us frequently if THEY want to be relevant.

Also after hearing some of these samples I get a feeling that we are a cheap brand desperately trying to get attention. NOt a good look. If it was interactive, sure, but this is just random soundbites

I see your point and I think it's a valid one.
If we could somehow manage to get someone on the show, that would be amazing!
We still got the community fund ~13kk Nxt so thats quite a lot of money.  We could do multiple things.
It's really a joke actually if we compare our marketing efforts to those of Ethereum.
We got the transparent forging, not them  

A community fund of 13K NXT is only 5% of the 275K NXT is about to be spent / blown on these audio ads.  I think some serious thought needs to be put into whether or not these are worth the high price being charged especially since page one color ads last and last and last in a prime print location while a voice message is gone in 60 seconds.  Plus the print ad has the follow-on URL / QR.  Plus it's three times cheaper.

I think the audio shows are archived and downloadable. Also, I have never read this bitcoin magazine. Print tends to be out of date due to long print cycle. Not sure if I am alone in this and maybe a lot of people we want to reach are reading this magazine.

From what I can tell, the LTB audience is exactly the perfect demographic to recruit a lot of new NXT'ers from. We need as many people on the NXT team as possible. This audience certainly might buy some NXT, but I am much more interested in all the cool things they will build with NXT. That is the main value of the LTB audience as far as I am concerned.

I doubt jean-luc reads the bitcoin magazine, much more likely people like him listen to LTB.

James

[Anon136]

Honestly, I can barely follow you reading.

Listening to this will be just noise. Especially if you try to squeeze it in one minute....

This is waaaay too wordy. Especially for a 1 minute spot. It's not close to easily digestible, as it needs to be. I would turn off before the end of the second sentence. Some friendly constructive criticism.

Not trying to hammer down a good intentions, but one minute verbal spot is just not the place to introduce deeply complex new concepts, starting with NXT itself.  On a cost per word basis, on a cost per information basis, print in Bitcoin Magazine is the way to go, not sound bites on Let's Talk Bitcoin.

Which one establishes our cool blockchain logo brand?

of course its too wordy. like i said in my orginial post you always start out with something longer than you need and trim the fat with revisions. you guys are really beginning to frustrate me. notice how its gets less wordy with every revision.

[Anon136]

revision 2 (tell me if im getting closer)

Ready for whats next? Written from the ground up with brand new source code, nxt is the first truely second generation crypto. By melding short term predictibility with longer term uncertanty, nxt's 100% proof of stake security model opens the flood gates for a torrent of breakthrough innovations. The ability to predict future forging nodes allows forgers to build trust within the community. This trust can be leveraged by merchants to acheve instantly secure transactions or by customers to acheve visa level transaction volumes via transaction clearing performed by forgers before recording transactions in the blockchain. Nxt's 100% proof of stake security model eliminates many of the costs associated with blockchain security that are, with bitcoin, presently born by the savers in the form of inflation. Finally, unlike bitcoin with its limited time block subsidy, there is no arbitrarily selected date far off in the future where nxt's security model will be put to the final test, if nxt works now, it will work always.

I would drop "Ready for what's next?" right off of there. It's corny and unnatural sounding.

Yea i agree. in my newest revision i just did this

*insert intro* Written from the ground up with brand new source code, nxt is the first truely second generation crypto. By melding short term predictibility with longer term uncertanty, nxt's 100% proof of stake security model opens the flood gates for a torrent of breakthrough innovations. The ability to predict future transaction processors allows those processors to build trust within the community. This trust can be leveraged by merchants to acheve instantly secure transactions or by customers to acheve visa level transaction volumes. Nxt's 100% proof of stake security model eliminates many of the costs associated with bitcoin blockchain security. Costs presently born by the savers in the form of inflation. Finally, unlike bitcoin with its limited time block subsidy, there is no arbitrarily selected date far off in the future where nxt's security model will be put to a final test, if nxt works now, it will work always. *insert conclusion*

im not good at aesthetics. it seems to be the only thing that some other people in this thread are concerned with so ill let them handle that.

[ZeroTheGreat]

Every NXTer can forge, we all are forges, there is no "part" here. And if there is no forger, then there is no confirmed transaction.

I was talking about treating pure forging like a busniess. Goal: highest fees. But, for example, merchants (or just senders) a part of Nxters too (will be in worst case). Goal: lowest fees to compete. Not only different goals, opposite goals. How to reach equilibrium? How to reach win-win situation? I think: not but supressing losers of voting, but in competent discussion (public or not) and trying of models (in worst case in different chains/projects). Infinite evolving, much thinking required.

Oh, it does matter, because we cannot have a proof that they are really 1 million.

We don't need exact numbers, we need close assumption. Do u think competence on every problem distributed exactly like wealth? I don't think so.

[minusbalancer]

New version of .NXT Client (v.0.0.4) is available!

[Feature] Copy to clipboard functionality all over the application
[Feature] Lock account button and context menu
[Feature] Forging timer
[Feature] Not encrypted messages
[Bug fix] Performance and GUI improvements

Known issues:
- Orphaned blocks are not displayed correctly

dotNXT.0.0.4.setup.exe 915838 bytes
MD5  10c2f846eae370ba261664f53d452857
SHA1 c6bb2c6a703721ea2e8da31667c8040307ab929b
SHA256 d4597acfa716497444791801719149e1b80e38ea5c728cc95bbe9911acaf9a27

PS: Source code will be published with the next (v.0.0.5) version.

[salsacz]

jl777
+1
+ if we want to get to the journalists / celebrities / people with a lot of followers, this is a way
+ now ethereum etc cannot have that minute

[jl777]

revision 2 (tell me if im getting closer)

Ready for whats next? Written from the ground up with brand new source code, nxt is the first truely second generation crypto. By melding short term predictibility with longer term uncertanty, nxt's 100% proof of stake security model opens the flood gates for a torrent of breakthrough innovations. The ability to predict future forging nodes allows forgers to build trust within the community. This trust can be leveraged by merchants to acheve instantly secure transactions or by customers to acheve visa level transaction volumes via transaction clearing performed by forgers before recording transactions in the blockchain. Nxt's 100% proof of stake security model eliminates many of the costs associated with blockchain security that are, with bitcoin, presently born by the savers in the form of inflation. Finally, unlike bitcoin with its limited time block subsidy, there is no arbitrarily selected date far off in the future where nxt's security model will be put to the final test, if nxt works now, it will work always.

I would drop "Ready for what's next?" right off of there. It's corny and unnatural sounding.

Yea i agree. in my newest revision i just did this

*insert intro* Written from the ground up with brand new source code, nxt is the first truely second generation crypto. By melding short term predictibility with longer term uncertanty, nxt's 100% proof of stake security model opens the flood gates for a torrent of breakthrough innovations. The ability to predict future transaction processors allows those processors to build trust within the community. This trust can be leveraged by merchants to acheve instantly secure transactions or by customers to acheve visa level transaction volumes. Nxt's 100% proof of stake security model eliminates many of the costs associated with bitcoin blockchain security. Costs presently born by the savers in the form of inflation. Finally, unlike bitcoin with its limited time block subsidy, there is no arbitrarily selected date far off in the future where nxt's security model will be put to a final test, if nxt works now, it will work always. *insert conclusion*

im not good at aesthetics. it seems to be the only thing that some other people in this thread are concerned with so ill let them handle that.

Maybe this is for print? There is a logical chain presented and it is very powerful, but there is no way I would be able to follow this if I were listening to it. With bullet points and formatting, maybe a diagram and chart, it would be a very strong claim + proof about NXT.

James

[joefox]

well maybe its just me but if i hear someone make claims with no arguments i completely ignore it. maybe other people just accept claims at face value.

We don't have to back up the claims in one minute of audio.  Just make the claims and let people know where to go to get the backup info.  

Sadly, it *is* an ad... not a precis for an academic paper.  The goal is actually very simple: get people interested and involved.

You are TOTALLY on the right track.  It just needs some trimming and clarity, which is coming with each revision.  No draft you've presented so far mentions a website or tells anyone where to go to learn more.  You don't have to build all the facts into the text.  Hit the audience hard with your best feature list (you have a great handle on this) and then make sure they understand where to go to find the detail they need.

[Damelon]

revision 2 (tell me if im getting closer)

Ready for whats next? Written from the ground up with brand new source code, nxt is the first truely second generation crypto. By melding short term predictibility with longer term uncertanty, nxt's 100% proof of stake security model opens the flood gates for a torrent of breakthrough innovations. The ability to predict future forging nodes allows forgers to build trust within the community. This trust can be leveraged by merchants to acheve instantly secure transactions or by customers to acheve visa level transaction volumes via transaction clearing performed by forgers before recording transactions in the blockchain. Nxt's 100% proof of stake security model eliminates many of the costs associated with blockchain security that are, with bitcoin, presently born by the savers in the form of inflation. Finally, unlike bitcoin with its limited time block subsidy, there is no arbitrarily selected date far off in the future where nxt's security model will be put to the final test, if nxt works now, it will work always.

I would drop "Ready for what's next?" right off of there. It's corny and unnatural sounding.

Yea i agree. in my newest revision i just did this

*insert intro* Written from the ground up with brand new source code, nxt is the first truely second generation crypto. By melding short term predictibility with longer term uncertanty, nxt's 100% proof of stake security model opens the flood gates for a torrent of breakthrough innovations. The ability to predict future transaction processors allows those processors to build trust within the community. This trust can be leveraged by merchants to acheve instantly secure transactions or by customers to acheve visa level transaction volumes. Nxt's 100% proof of stake security model eliminates many of the costs associated with bitcoin blockchain security. Costs presently born by the savers in the form of inflation. Finally, unlike bitcoin with its limited time block subsidy, there is no arbitrarily selected date far off in the future where nxt's security model will be put to a final test, if nxt works now, it will work always. *insert conclusion*

im not good at aesthetics. it seems to be the only thing that some other people in this thread are concerned with so ill let them handle that.

Now that is just misrepresenting what we are saying.
Sorry, but it happens to be my job to know how to get an idea across in a particular format.
There are rules to it, and you ignore them at your peril.
Those rules are not glib, they are tested and documented.

You ask for opinions, fine.
Don't go in a strop when people here, who know about how to present and ration ideas in words tell you your way can be improved upon.

As said: the content is good, but too information dense for one minute.
It needs cutting up and needs less technical terms *for a one minute segment*
In a longer format, it could work.

Yes, I'm irritated by your tone.

[ZeroTheGreat]

So far the list non-gameable solutions look like this

Yes, non-gameable in calculation. But what result it'll bring? If VS serves goal of collecting of opinions (for reader), how it's different from BTT's thread? And here anyone even with 0 NXT can say something useful. That was I meant under "right to vote".

Will be most-coins-owners'es-competency-based result better representative (to reader, to doer) of community view on pointed problem than forum poll / thread's posts? Well, guess what: I don't think so. In worst case it'll be exact opposite.

I've thought about another one: voting worse than discussion cos it simply can eat much more time. If some competent enough people're brainstorming problem, "collective mind" work: if u didn't take in important detail there's a chance it can be immidiately repair by another brainstormer. So road to decision can be short and % of mistakes can be lowered. Voting... I hope u got me.

[bitcoinpaul]

guys are really beginning to frustrate me.

Please don't get frustrated. The problem is that some people think that simple and few content = better than rich content with arguments.

Think of apple: simplicity (not stupidity!)

[jl777]

jl777
+1
+ if we want to get to the journalists / celebrities / people with a lot of followers, this is a way
+ now ethereum etc cannot have that minute

I bet all of the people who make a living advising other people about crypto are listening to LTB and not waiting for the print version of bitcoin magazine. Now, bitcoinmagazine's website might be a different story.

I forgot about the competitive aspects. Only finite slots available and until April or even when TF is fully deployed, we need to do everything we can to reserve NXT's place in people's minds, especially the influential people's minds.

We have 10 million in community fund. Between now and April if we can't figure out what to do with it, it will be vaporized. We have proven that we will never be able to agree on how to vote...

I say that it will be much better for NXT overall if we just spent it on a PR blitz, instead of having it vaporized. Marketing increases the value of every other NXT. However, it is not possible to accurately measure what each different piece of marketing does, so it does not really fit the typical bounty model. There are still many tech projects and my understanding is that they will be bounties from the founders that will continue.

The price of NXT increased just when bter added NXT, but there was also another very significant event. NXT marketing got funded. 500,000 NXT is not much, but it was the biggest NXT marketing funding. Right after this I increased my stake in NXT and I bet so did a lot of other investors. Investors like to know that marketing is not being skimped.

Get mindshare of the movers and shakers
Recruit a bunch of new highly capable NXT community members
Get a booth at trade shows
Get print ads
Get LTB spots and shows
etc. etc.

or send 10 million NXT to the shredder

Can we vote on this?

I cannot promise that a 10 million NXT marketing budget will double NXT price right away, but I can promise that spending 10 million NXT on marketing could double the price and it is certainly much better than destroying it!

James

[bitcoinpaul]

We should stay with the plan of paying 230k nxt for this campaign and reserve the slots for the next months.
Keep in mind that Ethereum and emunie are on their way... nxt needs to be and stay in people's minds.

[NxtChg]

im not good at aesthetics.

You are, apparently, also not very good at listening to critics.

10 people told you what your main problem is and you think it's "aesthetics"?

Your text is either for print or for a separate 20 minute podcast.

For 1 minute slots, it seems like joefox can handle everything by himself, his first two samples were perfect.

If he runs out of ideas he can always ask here and then word it precisely for his voice and articulation.

[Anon136]

guys are really beginning to frustrate me.

Please don't get frustrated. The problem is that some people think that simple and few content = better than rich content with arguments.

Think of apple: simplicity (not stupidity!)

i personally totally ignore unsupported claims. that means that ive pretty much ignored every advertisement ive ever heard in my life. i kind of had this idea that maybe i would make an advertisement that i wouldn't ignore if i heard it. but w/e i cant fight off this much negativity. im used to fighting of legions of opposition with out a single person supporting me thats the story of my life. but for some reason i just cant handle it here right now in this context. these guys can do w/e they want.