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Author Topic: www.BITSTAMP.net Bitcoin exchange site for USD/BTC  (Read 205942 times)
spin
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January 08, 2015, 10:42:38 AM
 #1521


I agree. I am not sure if they have enough capital to swallow the 5.2 million $ value of the loss.

It's all speculation anyway, but keep in mind: 10-12% of their total BTC holdings represents only about half of that percentage of their /total/ holdings, probably less if the last orderbook sums are to be taken as representative.

Assuming the 19k btc loss is really the end of it, I'd be surprised if they lost more than 5% of their total assets. Pretty bad for a company, but not necessarily catastrophic.

First of all: 19k cannot be 5% of "their assets" - customers deposits ARE NOT Bitstamp's assets, they cannot use customers money to cover the hole (Gox anyone?Huh).

Taking into account Bitstamp's average commission and volume, 19k is the income they would generate in 8/12 months - the commissions are basically the money with which they can operate, those are "their assets" and NOT customers money.

For a company to lose one full year of income is indeed catastrophic in my book. I know by heart my company would have to file for bankruptcy almost immediately Smiley. Unless they were very wise with their money management (I really hope they were), saving a lot of BTC back in the day, etc. they will have a very rough year ahead.

Let's hope that they are a healthy company and that Pantera and/or other investors are willing to help them out.

Yes, I realized this after I posted: 'asset' isn't the right word. My bad. But I'm sure you got the point though:

It does make a substantial difference whether they lost 80%, 40% or, as I claim, at most 5% of their total customers' funds, because:
- their ability to cover the loss is based on their revenue (and their company assets)
- their own revenue is based on their trading volume (and the market price, of course)
- which in turn is related to total customers' funds

So, the higher the share of customers' funds lost, the less likely is that a company will be able to refund it. That was the basic idea.

I'm not defending them, by the way: No idea why they had 19k coins in a hot wallet. Seems absolutely excessive. And unless they provide some very good information explaining the hack, how it came to it, and how they're improving their internal security from now on, I will leave Bitstamp behind as a customer.

That is, of course, assuming that I get my funds back. For all I know, this could still turn out to be another gox. I had a pretty high opinion of Bitstamp so far, and the fact that they have large outside investors is reassuring, but until I can log in again and trade or withdraw my funds, I remain extremely skeptic.

They just had 3.100BTC in the hot wallet at the moment of the hack. But they did not realize they were hacked until 24 hours after the hack. Check the transactions. During that 24 hours the hacker kept stealing all the money that was deposited on bitstamp.

This is what the transaction history tells us:

- the first transaction is the bigger one: 3.100 BTC. Probably all that was on Bitstamp's hot wallet at that time.
- after that, the hacker sweeps every coin that is deposited on Bitstamp during 24 hours.
- after a full day, he managed to steal almost 19k.
- after Bitstamp realizes is hacked, transactions slow down, but we still see some transactions going in to the hacker address. This is probably people that did not realize Bitstamp was hacked, so they are still depositing BTC from their clients address book. It could also be some ATM or automated service - anyhow after the announcement only peanuts coming in.




An alternative theory to the above:

I am not sure what bistamp realised and when but regular withdrawals were blocked quite soon after things started.  I.e. I submitted a withdrawal request only a couple of hours after the first hack transaction.  It was about 4-5am UTC on 4 Jan.  That withdrawal remained pending until that evening and was never processed.  Usually it's quite quick to process.

So something stopped allowing withdrawals soon after the hack started.  Unfortunately the thief was able to continue taking funds because he was presumably using some other vector that did not need the regular withdrawal.  E.g. he had control of the private keys.  He was (and is?) able to continue taking funds if he had private keys.

My theory is that some automated control system picked up mismatch with what balances should be vs what they actually had and stopped withdrawals.  Bitstamp management then at some point figured out what was happening.   The hacker is however not blocked by this as he is using another vector (e.g. control of the keys).

My suggestion to improve this would be that the automated control system that picked up the error should on mismatch of balances automatically transfer all at risk funds to cold storage (and continue to do so).  Not sure if this occured, but this might be what the thief was trying to prevent with his high fees.  Was their any attempted double spends on the affected addresses?

If you liked this post buy me a beer.  Beers are quite cheap where I live!
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January 08, 2015, 10:45:32 AM
 #1522

I am not sure what bistamp realised and when but regular withdrawals were blocked quite soon after things started.  I.e. I submitted a withdrawal request only a couple of hours after the first hack transaction.  It was about 4-5am UTC on 4 Jan.  That withdrawal remained pending until that evening and was never processed.  Usually it's quite quick to process.

So something stopped allowing withdrawals soon after the hack started.  Unfortunately the thief was able to continue taking funds because he was presumably using some other vector that did not need the regular withdrawal.  E.g. he had control of the private keys.  He was (and is?) able to continue taking funds if he had private keys.

My theory is that some automated control system picked up mismatch with what balances should be vs what they actually had and stopped withdrawals.  Bitstamp management then at some point figured out what was happening.   The hacker is however not blocked by this as he is using another vector (e.g. control of the keys).


It's pretty clear what stopped withdrawals. As soon as money entered the hot wallet, the hacker emptied it. So there was NO money on the hot wallet to honor withdrawals since the very first moment the hack started.

Bitstamp did not realize this on time so the hacker kept emptying the hot wallet during 24 hours - money came in from deposits, money went out to hacker's address. As soon as Bitstamp told customers "DO NOT DEPOSIT TO OLD ADDRESSES" the amount of coins stolen went down dramatically. We still had some coins stolen after Bitstamp shut down, probably from people who did not realize Bitstamp was hacked and deposited directly from the address book of their client.

If Bitstamp realized this immediately after the first 3.100 BTC theft, they would have probably saved +14k BTC.

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January 08, 2015, 10:51:03 AM
 #1523

An alternative theory to the above:

I am not sure what bistamp realised and when but regular withdrawals were blocked quite soon after things started.  I.e. I submitted a withdrawal request only a couple of hours after the first hack transaction.  It was about 4-5am UTC on 4 Jan.  That withdrawal remained pending until that evening and was never processed.  Usually it's quite quick to process.

So something stopped allowing withdrawals soon after the hack started.  Unfortunately the thief was able to continue taking funds because he was presumably using some other vector that did not need the regular withdrawal.  E.g. he had control of the private keys.  He was (and is?) able to continue taking funds if he had private keys.

My theory is that some automated control system picked up mismatch with what balances should be vs what they actually had and stopped withdrawals.  Bitstamp management then at some point figured out what was happening.   The hacker is however not blocked by this as he is using another vector (e.g. control of the keys).


It's pretty clear what stopped withdrawals. As soon as money entered the hot wallet, the hacked emptied it. So there was NO money on the hot wallet to honor withdrawals since the very first moment the hack started.

Yeah of course.  I assumed that the hacker didn't have control of the full hot wallet.  But if he did then that could be the simplest explanation...

I guess I'm hoping they had a control system, that checked for mismatched balances (or unauthorised tx on their wallets).  And locked down withdrawals in case of an issue.  It should also move funds to safe cold storage. 

If you liked this post buy me a beer.  Beers are quite cheap where I live!
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January 08, 2015, 10:52:10 AM
 #1524

An alternative theory to the above:

I am not sure what bistamp realised and when but regular withdrawals were blocked quite soon after things started.  I.e. I submitted a withdrawal request only a couple of hours after the first hack transaction.  It was about 4-5am UTC on 4 Jan.  That withdrawal remained pending until that evening and was never processed.  Usually it's quite quick to process.

So something stopped allowing withdrawals soon after the hack started.  Unfortunately the thief was able to continue taking funds because he was presumably using some other vector that did not need the regular withdrawal.  E.g. he had control of the private keys.  He was (and is?) able to continue taking funds if he had private keys.

My theory is that some automated control system picked up mismatch with what balances should be vs what they actually had and stopped withdrawals.  Bitstamp management then at some point figured out what was happening.   The hacker is however not blocked by this as he is using another vector (e.g. control of the keys).


It's pretty clear what stopped withdrawals. As soon as money entered the hot wallet, the hacked emptied it. So there was NO money on the hot wallet to honor withdrawals since the very first moment the hack started.

Yeah of course.  I assumed that the hacker didn't have control of the full hot wallet.  But if he did then that could be the simplest explanation...

I guess I'm hoping they had a control system, that checked for mismatched balances (or unauthorised tx on their wallets).  And locked down withdrawals in case of an issue.  It should also move funds to safe cold storage. 


Occam Razor: it's much simpler to hack a full wallet just by stealing it and seizing the encryption key from the server's memory, that to discover a single private key by other means.

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January 08, 2015, 11:09:35 AM
 #1525

Solid analysis of the hack, Rampion.

The 'warm wallet' architecture outlined here should be a way to decrease the likelihood of this type of attack (assuming it played out as described above).

Not sure which Bitcoin wallet to use? I can highly recommend Electrum.
Electrum is an open-source lightweight client: user friendly, extremely fast, and one of the safest ways to store and use your bitcoins.
Executables are available on the Electrum homepage, so you can get a Bitcoin wallet up and running on your own computer in a few minutes.
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January 08, 2015, 11:18:06 AM
 #1526

Solid analysis of the hack, Rampion.

The 'warm wallet' architecture outlined here should be a way to decrease the likelihood of this type of attack (assuming it played out as described above).

Egor is a boss - the solution he proposes is indeed a good one. The fact is that Bitstamp operation was not very sophisticated. They should improve now.

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January 08, 2015, 01:27:38 PM
 #1527

Call me an optonist, but theyv been upfront with it and im sure they can cover it from their reserves.
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January 09, 2015, 06:19:23 PM
 #1528

So, what's a good exchange to trade on nowdays?

Looking to launder your loot dipshit?

GAWSOME class action
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January 09, 2015, 06:22:10 PM
 #1529

So, what's a good exchange to trade on nowdays?

Looking to launder your loot dipshit?

I wish their deposited coins get locked at Bitstamp.
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January 09, 2015, 08:06:24 PM
 #1530

Site is back up, but order placement is not working, orders getting queued indefinitely
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January 10, 2015, 08:41:41 PM
 #1531

first of all. good job getting the site backup and running (didn't realize that Nejc Kodric runs Bitstamp)


i've noticed an issues with the Transactions API call (https://www.bitstamp.net/api/transactions/?time=hour)
sometimes a call returns transactions that are older than those in a previous call.

today with this call, i first received:
[{"date": "1420896736", "tid": 7102104, "price": "274.11", "amount": "2.00000000"}, ...]

and in a next call, i received:
[{"date": "1420896324", "tid": 7101926, "price": "276.06", "amount": "4.49916597"}, ...]

i left out irrelevant parts of the lists (with "...").
but clearly date 1420896324 is supposed to come before 1420896736

(i'm not sure whether this is the right place to report this issue)
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January 12, 2015, 07:59:13 PM
 #1532

first of all. good job getting the site backup and running (didn't realize that Nejc Kodric runs Bitstamp)


i've noticed an issues with the Transactions API call (https://www.bitstamp.net/api/transactions/?time=hour)
sometimes a call returns transactions that are older than those in a previous call.

today with this call, i first received:
[{"date": "1420896736", "tid": 7102104, "price": "274.11", "amount": "2.00000000"}, ...]

and in a next call, i received:
[{"date": "1420896324", "tid": 7101926, "price": "276.06", "amount": "4.49916597"}, ...]

i left out irrelevant parts of the lists (with "...").
but clearly date 1420896324 is supposed to come before 1420896736

(i'm not sure whether this is the right place to report this issue)

There seems to be some real issues with transactions at the moment. We are seeing subsequent pulls give us different versions of history. For example, I pull the history once and get a large set of trades, then I pull again and I'm missing just two trades from somewhere in the middle of the set. A third pull and the trades are back again. I'm opening a ticket but I think Bitstamp should look at this ASAP.
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January 12, 2015, 08:03:22 PM
 #1533

first of all. good job getting the site backup and running (didn't realize that Nejc Kodric runs Bitstamp)


i've noticed an issues with the Transactions API call (https://www.bitstamp.net/api/transactions/?time=hour)
sometimes a call returns transactions that are older than those in a previous call.

today with this call, i first received:
[{"date": "1420896736", "tid": 7102104, "price": "274.11", "amount": "2.00000000"}, ...]

and in a next call, i received:
[{"date": "1420896324", "tid": 7101926, "price": "276.06", "amount": "4.49916597"}, ...]

i left out irrelevant parts of the lists (with "...").
but clearly date 1420896324 is supposed to come before 1420896736

(i'm not sure whether this is the right place to report this issue)

There seems to be some real issues with transactions at the moment. We are seeing subsequent pulls give us different versions of history. For example, I pull the history once and get a large set of trades, then I pull again and I'm missing just two trades from somewhere in the middle of the set. A third pull and the trades are back again. I'm opening a ticket but I think Bitstamp should look at this ASAP.

Actually, this might be my mistake. Will update here as soon as I know.
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January 12, 2015, 08:54:06 PM
 #1534

first of all. good job getting the site backup and running (didn't realize that Nejc Kodric runs Bitstamp)


i've noticed an issues with the Transactions API call (https://www.bitstamp.net/api/transactions/?time=hour)
sometimes a call returns transactions that are older than those in a previous call.

today with this call, i first received:
[{"date": "1420896736", "tid": 7102104, "price": "274.11", "amount": "2.00000000"}, ...]

and in a next call, i received:
[{"date": "1420896324", "tid": 7101926, "price": "276.06", "amount": "4.49916597"}, ...]

i left out irrelevant parts of the lists (with "...").
but clearly date 1420896324 is supposed to come before 1420896736

(i'm not sure whether this is the right place to report this issue)

There seems to be some real issues with transactions at the moment. We are seeing subsequent pulls give us different versions of history. For example, I pull the history once and get a large set of trades, then I pull again and I'm missing just two trades from somewhere in the middle of the set. A third pull and the trades are back again. I'm opening a ticket but I think Bitstamp should look at this ASAP.

Actually, this might be my mistake. Will update here as soon as I know.

Yeah, this was a mistake in our code. From what I can tell, bitstamp transaction data is OK, though there have been a few subtle changes in the ordering of records returned.
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January 13, 2015, 03:57:54 AM
 #1535

first of all. good job getting the site backup and running (didn't realize that Nejc Kodric runs Bitstamp)


i've noticed an issues with the Transactions API call (https://www.bitstamp.net/api/transactions/?time=hour)
sometimes a call returns transactions that are older than those in a previous call.

today with this call, i first received:
[{"date": "1420896736", "tid": 7102104, "price": "274.11", "amount": "2.00000000"}, ...]

and in a next call, i received:
[{"date": "1420896324", "tid": 7101926, "price": "276.06", "amount": "4.49916597"}, ...]

i left out irrelevant parts of the lists (with "...").
but clearly date 1420896324 is supposed to come before 1420896736

(i'm not sure whether this is the right place to report this issue)

There seems to be some real issues with transactions at the moment. We are seeing subsequent pulls give us different versions of history. For example, I pull the history once and get a large set of trades, then I pull again and I'm missing just two trades from somewhere in the middle of the set. A third pull and the trades are back again. I'm opening a ticket but I think Bitstamp should look at this ASAP.

Actually, this might be my mistake. Will update here as soon as I know.

Yeah, this was a mistake in our code. From what I can tell, bitstamp transaction data is OK, though there have been a few subtle changes in the ordering of records returned.

it hasn't happened again since i posted here. but i'm pretty sure it's not a problem in my code. because when it happens, i log the data that i already have and the data returned from the API call. and it's really easy to see that the data i already have is newer (which should never be the case).

i also noticed an issue of missing trades between the list of trades for the last hour and the list for the last minute. here the hour list lags behind the minute list. and at times a trade is no longer in the minute list but also not in the hour list yet. so i just use the hour list now. so i use a little more bandwidth (but i consider this a minor issue).
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January 19, 2015, 02:28:33 PM
 #1536

first of all. good job getting the site backup and running (didn't realize that Nejc Kodric runs Bitstamp)


i've noticed an issues with the Transactions API call (https://www.bitstamp.net/api/transactions/?time=hour)
sometimes a call returns transactions that are older than those in a previous call.

today with this call, i first received:
[{"date": "1420896736", "tid": 7102104, "price": "274.11", "amount": "2.00000000"}, ...]

and in a next call, i received:
[{"date": "1420896324", "tid": 7101926, "price": "276.06", "amount": "4.49916597"}, ...]

i left out irrelevant parts of the lists (with "...").
but clearly date 1420896324 is supposed to come before 1420896736

(i'm not sure whether this is the right place to report this issue)

There seems to be some real issues with transactions at the moment. We are seeing subsequent pulls give us different versions of history. For example, I pull the history once and get a large set of trades, then I pull again and I'm missing just two trades from somewhere in the middle of the set. A third pull and the trades are back again. I'm opening a ticket but I think Bitstamp should look at this ASAP.

Actually, this might be my mistake. Will update here as soon as I know.

Yeah, this was a mistake in our code. From what I can tell, bitstamp transaction data is OK, though there have been a few subtle changes in the ordering of records returned.

it hasn't happened again since i posted here. but i'm pretty sure it's not a problem in my code. because when it happens, i log the data that i already have and the data returned from the API call. and it's really easy to see that the data i already have is newer (which should never be the case).

i also noticed an issue of missing trades between the list of trades for the last hour and the list for the last minute. here the hour list lags behind the minute list. and at times a trade is no longer in the minute list but also not in the hour list yet. so i just use the hour list now. so i use a little more bandwidth (but i consider this a minor issue).
I would advice to built a additional data integrity validation layer when operating on bitstamp historical trades API. Since October 2013 bitstamp does not allow to keep data integrity due to removed `since` / `offset` param from trades API method. Be aware that sourcing bitstamp trades data from external sites like bitcoincharts.com might be also affected by lack of data integrity feature on bitstamp.

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January 19, 2015, 03:18:18 PM
 #1537

@hazek

When can we expect the next financial audit of Bitstamp's customer deposits?

The last one was almost a year ago (March 2014). Back then, the plan was to do them quarter yearly. That didn't happen unfortunately.

In my opinion, after the recent hot wallet hack, it would seem like an extremely good idea to announce, and then undergo another audit of your exchange, to reassure your customers, and the crypto market in general.

Not sure which Bitcoin wallet to use? I can highly recommend Electrum.
Electrum is an open-source lightweight client: user friendly, extremely fast, and one of the safest ways to store and use your bitcoins.
Executables are available on the Electrum homepage, so you can get a Bitcoin wallet up and running on your own computer in a few minutes.
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January 23, 2015, 07:53:48 AM
 #1538

Been experiencing problems with the new site but nobody's helping:

I'm pretty sure they have a floating point rounding issue in the withdrawal API somewhere.

I withdrew BTC0.29 the other day using API.  And it shows as 0.29 in my withdrawal list etc.  But the tx in the blockchain goes only for 0.28999999.

Talk about nickel-and-diming Smiley

Anyway it just causes hassles and it doesn't seem right.  Can anyone confirm if they see the same issue?

If you liked this post buy me a beer.  Beers are quite cheap where I live!
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January 23, 2015, 07:56:30 AM
 #1539

A full blown audit needs to be done on bitstamp.

Wouldn't use it otherwise.

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January 23, 2015, 11:58:49 AM
 #1540

A full blown audit needs to be done on bitstamp.

Wouldn't use it otherwise.

Which ties in with my own request from a few days ago...

When can we expect the next financial audit of Bitstamp's customer deposits?

The last one was almost a year ago (March 2014). Back then, the plan was to do them quarter yearly. That didn't happen unfortunately.

In my opinion, after the recent hot wallet hack, it would seem like an extremely good idea to announce, and then undergo another audit of your exchange, to reassure your customers, and the crypto market in general.


As a long-term customer of Bitstamp, I'd really appreciate an answer from someone in charge to this simple question:

Do you have an ETA for the next financial audit? (That were once promised to be held quarter yearly).

Not sure which Bitcoin wallet to use? I can highly recommend Electrum.
Electrum is an open-source lightweight client: user friendly, extremely fast, and one of the safest ways to store and use your bitcoins.
Executables are available on the Electrum homepage, so you can get a Bitcoin wallet up and running on your own computer in a few minutes.
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