[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[alijiba]

It's there as a deterrent.  If anyone could put up as many masternodes as they like, then someone could simply put up more than 50%  of them, and then they'd be in position to record what is going on, and thereby see where coins are going from where.  With the cost of masternodes, it is expensive to build more than 50% of the network, and as the price of darkcoin goes up, it becomes ridiculously expensive.  We only need so many masternodes to secure the decentralized network, after that, more masternodes are a drag on the system, so we hope for a balance.

So yes, it's effectively a type of POS while also providing work.

[AlexGR]

It then compares the changes that occurred in those addresses in the last 2.5min [from its previous check] and knows exactly who transferred coins to whom.

Because it doesn't know who had them in the first place. It doesn't know if it's the same person sending to self.

Darksend moves in blocks of fixed size and provides change back on new addresses.

The blockchain keeps track of all of that anyway, why does a person have to be NSA? It's all in the blockchain...  Why monitor? I don't get it. I think you just have a fundamental lack of understanding in how any crypto coin works. I'm not even sure where to start in trying to help you understand. Not an insult... You just don't have enough basic knowledge to have this conversation.

That's kind of condescending. You could have just said, "an attacker can query the blockchain rather than constantly monitoring balances", and then answered his question. I thought it was a good question -- how does darksend protect against a timing analysis?

I think the answer is in making similar-sized payments (denomination of XX DRK) + using a time delay for batching multiple transactions together.

A third party will see accounts being reduced and increased by similar sizes. For example 100 people will be losing 10 DRKs and 100 people will be gaining 10 DRKs. So you don't really know who sent to who.

[LimLims]

It then compares the changes that occurred in those addresses in the last 2.5min [from its previous check] and knows exactly who transferred coins to whom.

Because it doesn't know who had them in the first place. It doesn't know if it's the same person sending to self.

Darksend moves in blocks of fixed size and provides change back on new addresses.

The blockchain keeps track of all of that anyway, why does a person have to be NSA? It's all in the blockchain...  Why monitor? I don't get it. I think you just have a fundamental lack of understanding in how any crypto coin works. I'm not even sure where to start in trying to help you understand. Not an insult... You just don't have enough basic knowledge to have this conversation.

That's kind of condescending. You could have just said, "an attacker can query the blockchain rather than constantly monitoring balances", and then answered his question. I thought it was a good question -- how does darksend protect against a timing analysis?

I think the answer is in making similar-sized payments (denomination of XX DRK) + using a time delay for batching multiple transactions together.

A third party will see accounts being reduced and increased by similar sizes. For example 100 people will be losing 10 DRKs and 100 people will be gaining 10 DRKs. So you don't really know who sent to who.

Right, but I can Darksend 7.289375 DRK to you, and I will get 2.710625 DRK change, and both of those amounts will be recorded in the blockchain. A timing analysis could trivially link the two addresses sending/receiving those two amounts that add to 10 DRK.

[chaeplin]

How can it be right fucking there, but then I try to run it and it tells me it doesn't fucking exist?

I think the closed source binary has a trollface.jpg in it somewhere...

The compiled darkcoind won't run and gives me an utterly useless error message. The binary declares itself non-existent...

Check your system, link.

Code:

system:~$ wget http://www.darkcoin.io/downloads/rc2/darkcoind
--2014-04-28 09:02:16--  http://www.darkcoin.io/downloads/rc2/darkcoind
Resolving www.darkcoin.io (www.darkcoin.io)... 162.252.83.44
Connecting to www.darkcoin.io (www.darkcoin.io)|162.252.83.44|:80... connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK
Length: 56526335 (54M)
Saving to: `darkcoind'

100%[============================================================================================================>] 56,526,335  3.92M/s   in 20s     

2014-04-28 09:02:37 (2.70 MB/s) - `darkcoind' saved [56526335/56526335]

system:~$ ls -lh 
total 54M
-rw-rw-r-- 1 darkcointestnet darkcointestnet 54M Apr 27 17:17 darkcoind
system:~$ chmod 755 darkcoind 
system:~$ ./darkcoind --help
DarkCoin version v0.10.5.0-4-g7fbbd66-beta

Usage:
  darkcoind [options]                     
  darkcoind [options] <command> [params]  Send command to -server or darkcoind
  darkcoind [options] help                List commands
  darkcoind [options] help <command>      Get help for a command

Options:
~~~


system:~$ file darkcoind 
darkcoind: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (GNU/Linux), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.24, BuildID[sha1]=0xf509c92a8ce01788736328df7f379d995a66d7b3, not stripped

[camosoul]

It then compares the changes that occurred in those addresses in the last 2.5min [from its previous check] and knows exactly who transferred coins to whom.

Because it doesn't know who had them in the first place. It doesn't know if it's the same person sending to self.

Darksend moves in blocks of fixed size and provides change back on new addresses.

The blockchain keeps track of all of that anyway, why does a person have to be NSA? It's all in the blockchain...  Why monitor? I don't get it. I think you just have a fundamental lack of understanding in how any crypto coin works. I'm not even sure where to start in trying to help you understand. Not an insult... You just don't have enough basic knowledge to have this conversation.

That's kind of condescending. You could have just said, "an attacker can query the blockchain rather than constantly monitoring balances", and then answered his question. I thought it was a good question -- how does darksend protect against a timing analysis?

Wasn't meant to be... This is why I avoid humans. They'd rather get mad and call names. I don't know how to communicate with anyone who talks backwards and upside down, which is most people. So I generally jsut keep to myself.

[camosoul]

How can it be right fucking there, but then I try to run it and it tells me it doesn't fucking exist?

I think the closed source binary has a trollface.jpg in it somewhere...

The compiled darkcoind won't run and gives me an utterly useless error message. The binary declares itself non-existent...

Check your system, link.

Code:

system:~$ wget http://www.darkcoin.io/downloads/rc2/darkcoind
--2014-04-28 09:02:16--  http://www.darkcoin.io/downloads/rc2/darkcoind
Resolving www.darkcoin.io (www.darkcoin.io)... 162.252.83.44
Connecting to www.darkcoin.io (www.darkcoin.io)|162.252.83.44|:80... connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK
Length: 56526335 (54M)
Saving to: `darkcoind'

100%[============================================================================================================>] 56,526,335  3.92M/s   in 20s     

2014-04-28 09:02:37 (2.70 MB/s) - `darkcoind' saved [56526335/56526335]

system:~$ ls -lh 
total 54M
-rw-rw-r-- 1 darkcointestnet darkcointestnet 54M Apr 27 17:17 darkcoind
system:~$ chmod 755 darkcoind 
system:~$ ./darkcoind --help
DarkCoin version v0.10.5.0-4-g7fbbd66-beta

Usage:
  darkcoind [options]                     
  darkcoind [options] <command> [params]  Send command to -server or darkcoind
  darkcoind [options] help                List commands
  darkcoind [options] help <command>      Get help for a command

Options:

It was not the error it appeared to be. It was the binary declaring that the the locale was not found, not itself. Led to such confuse.

[blajde]

It then compares the changes that occurred in those addresses in the last 2.5min [from its previous check] and knows exactly who transferred coins to whom.

Because it doesn't know who had them in the first place. It doesn't know if it's the same person sending to self.

Darksend moves in blocks of fixed size and provides change back on new addresses.

The blockchain keeps track of all of that anyway, why does a person have to be NSA? It's all in the blockchain...  Why monitor? I don't get it. I think you just have a fundamental lack of understanding in how any crypto coin works. I'm not even sure where to start in trying to help you understand. Not an insult... You just don't have enough basic knowledge to have this conversation.

That's kind of condescending. You could have just said, "an attacker can query the blockchain rather than constantly monitoring balances", and then answered his question. I thought it was a good question -- how does darksend protect against a timing analysis?

Wasn't meant to be... This is why I avoid humans. They'd rather get mad and call names. I don't know how to communicate with anyone who talks backwards and upside down, which is most people. So I generally jsut keep to myself.

Try focusing on what isn't instead of what is, since my what is will not be seen in your perspective

[chompyZ]

That's kind of condescending.

Wasn't meant to be... This is why I avoid humans. They'd rather get mad and call names. I don't know how to communicate with anyone who talks backwards and upside down, which is most people. So I generally jsut keep to myself.

Guys, we are all friends here and I would x1000 rather talk with ANYONE here [regardless their communication skills which I lack as well], than with 'normal' humans on whatsup, fb, etc...

Now I understand the name of what I'm trying to understand - 'Timing Attack'. 10x

[camosoul]

Try focusing on what isn't instead of what is, since my what is will not be seen in your perspective

Nah, I was foolish. I should know better than to try. Sometimes my optimism gets the best of me, but the hate of humanity is always right there to teach me the lesson, again... This is why I don't contribute; always get attacked for doing it. Fuck humans.

[LimLims]

Try focusing on what isn't instead of what is, since my what is will not be seen in your perspective

Nah, I was foolish. I should know better than to try. Sometimes my optimism gets the best of me, but the hate of humanity is always right there to teach me the lesson, again... This is why I don't contribute; always get attacked for doing it. Fuck humans.

Are you throwing a tanty?

C'mon, I was just rebuking you for being condescending and refusing to answer a (good) question. Take the criticism and do better next time.

It's great when people try to help out -- but you weren't doing that. You were projecting your difficulty in translating your own knowledge into an answer appropriate for chompy's level of understanding, and basically called him ignorant and didn't answer his question:

"I don't get it. I think you just have a fundamental lack of understanding in how any crypto coin works. I'm not even sure where to start in trying to help you understand. Not an insult... You just don't have enough basic knowledge to have this conversation."

I don't think anyone is angry at you, and chompyZ apparently took no offence. Please do continue to contribute, and try not to be so sensitive to constructive criticism.

[blajde]

Try focusing on what isn't instead of what is, since my what is will not be seen in your perspective

Nah, I was foolish. I should know better than to try. Sometimes my optimism gets the best of me, but the hate of humanity is always right there to teach me the lesson, again... This is why I don't contribute; always get attacked for doing it. Fuck humans.

well before going to the next step in your exterior you should erase the negativity in your interior. Seems you have a lot of work ahead of you.

[vsmamm]

Seems you have a lot of work ahead of you

[AlexGR]

It then compares the changes that occurred in those addresses in the last 2.5min [from its previous check] and knows exactly who transferred coins to whom.

Because it doesn't know who had them in the first place. It doesn't know if it's the same person sending to self.

Darksend moves in blocks of fixed size and provides change back on new addresses.

The blockchain keeps track of all of that anyway, why does a person have to be NSA? It's all in the blockchain...  Why monitor? I don't get it. I think you just have a fundamental lack of understanding in how any crypto coin works. I'm not even sure where to start in trying to help you understand. Not an insult... You just don't have enough basic knowledge to have this conversation.

That's kind of condescending. You could have just said, "an attacker can query the blockchain rather than constantly monitoring balances", and then answered his question. I thought it was a good question -- how does darksend protect against a timing analysis?

I think the answer is in making similar-sized payments (denomination of XX DRK) + using a time delay for batching multiple transactions together.

A third party will see accounts being reduced and increased by similar sizes. For example 100 people will be losing 10 DRKs and 100 people will be gaining 10 DRKs. So you don't really know who sent to who.

Right, but I can Darksend 7.289375 DRK to you, and I will get 2.710625 DRK change, and both of those amounts will be recorded in the blockchain. A timing analysis could trivially link the two addresses sending/receiving those two amounts that add to 10 DRK.

Evan is the right person to analyze how DarkSend will deal with timing analysis. Personally I had proposed a slide bar that can be used to increase the anonymity level by increasing the laundry depth (number of masternodes the transaction goes through) or/and the time depth of the transaction. I also remember that it was discussed on how there'll be multiple denominating pools like 0.1/1/10/100 etc which would break down even the smaller amounts to similarly sized transactions. I'm not sure what's the current state of development is in terms of laundry depth, batching transactions delay etc.

In an older post of mine I raised a similar issue that if timing analysis can be performed then it's just a matter of time before an alternate blockchain explorer is made that will script-analyze the official and simply provide the "clean" output with certain probabilities.

Btw, I got an idea just now: It would be an interesting twist if one could send to two addresses instead of one, in a single transaction, with the sent amount being broken into two randomly sized parts. For example I send you 16 DRK and you get 5.4 DRK in one address and 10.6 DRK in another. You still got 16 but it's in two addresses so noone can corelate my 16 output and your receiving of ..5.4 and 10.6. If a further layer is added (for practical purposes) to treat these addresses as one (for the sender and receiver) it could also be quite easy to use. Kind of meta-addresses that overlap/include the sending/receiving addresses.

[camosoul]

Try focusing on what isn't instead of what is, since my what is will not be seen in your perspective

Nah, I was foolish. I should know better than to try. Sometimes my optimism gets the best of me, but the hate of humanity is always right there to teach me the lesson, again... This is why I don't contribute; always get attacked for doing it. Fuck humans.

Are you throwing a tanty?

C'mon, I was just rebuking you for being condescending and refusing to answer a (good) question. Take the criticism and do better next time.

It's great when people try to help out -- but you weren't doing that. You were projecting your difficulty in translating your own knowledge into an answer appropriate for chompy's level of understanding, and basically called him ignorant and didn't answer his question:

"I don't get it. I think you just have a fundamental lack of understanding in how any crypto coin works. I'm not even sure where to start in trying to help you understand. Not an insult... You just don't have enough basic knowledge to have this conversation."

I don't think anyone is angry at you, and chompyZ apparently took no offence. Please do continue to contribute, and try not to be so sensitive to constructive criticism.

I, for one, hate it when people answer a question with a bunch more shit that makes no sense and doesn't help me. Several examples of it in this thread...

Treat the illness, not the symptom. I aim to fix the underlying lack of understanding, not just respond to the question on the surface, which won't help. When I can't figure out how to do that i solicit further identification of the hole in the knowledge so I can try to fill it.

People hate that.

[GhostPlayer]

 Seems the whales indeed found too shallow waters in DRK and moved on.

 Has correction been established? Whats the criteria?

[fairglu]

For those that didn't notice, the block explorer extraction tab now has links to extraction history charts, f.i. here is the Official Pool's

[chompyZ]

When I can't figure out how to do that i solicit further identification of the hole in the knowledge so I can try to fill it.

People hate that.

a. I like asking 5y/o questions. I know i seem ignorant at the time... but you wouldn't believe where it brought me in life...

b. I read a FASCINATING article yesterday about Larry Page who is brilliant on one hand, and lacked communication skills on the other hand. I strongly recommend it's read although it is long...
http://www.businessinsider.com/larry-page-the-untold-story-2014-4?op=1
 

[LimLims]

Right, but I can Darksend 7.289375 DRK to you, and I will get 2.710625 DRK change, and both of those amounts will be recorded in the blockchain. A timing analysis could trivially link the two addresses sending/receiving those two amounts that add to 10 DRK.

Evan is the right person to analyze how DarkSend will deal with timing analysis. Personally I had proposed a slide bar that can be used to increase the anonymity level by increasing the laundry depth (number of masternodes the transaction goes through) or/and the time depth of the transaction. I also remember that it was discussed on how there'll be multiple denominating pools like 0.1/1/10/100 etc which would break down even the smaller amounts to similarly sized transactions. I'm not sure what's the current state of development is in terms of laundry depth, batching transactions delay etc.

I don't think there's been an official statement about chained pooling being built into Darksend. AFAIK it's just an idea that was tossed around. Personally I think it's necessary for any usable level of anonymity (preferably with the ability to specify whitelisted masternodes).

In an older post of mine I raised a similar issue that if timing analysis can be performed then it's just a matter of time before an alternate blockchain explorer is made that will script-analyze the official and simply provide the "clean" output with certain probabilities.

Agreed. Which would reduce the anonymity of the Darkcoin blockchain to be on par with bitcoin's. I was asking the same questions a while back and never saw a satisfactory answer (unless I'm having a memory fail).

Btw, I got an idea just now: It would be an interesting twist if one could send to two addresses instead of one, in a single transaction, with the sent amount being broken into two randomly sized parts. For example I send you 16 DRK and you get 5.4 DRK in one address and 10.6 DRK in another. You still got 16 but it's in two addresses so noone can corelate my 16 output and your receiving of ..5.4 and 10.6. If a further layer is added (for practical purposes) to treat these addresses as one (for the sender and receiver) it could also be quite easy to use. Kind of meta-addresses that overlap/include the sending/receiving addresses.

ok -- but with a timing analysis, the number of transactions in (let's say) a 60 second window will be relatively few, so it's not too hard to reconstruct what really happened, especially with uncommon amounts (e.g. I send you 16.023957).

[AlexGR]

I don't think there's been an official statement about chained pooling being built into Darksend. AFAIK it's just an idea that was tossed around. Personally I think it's necessary for any usable level of anonymity (preferably with the ability to specify whitelisted masternodes).

I think it was mentioned, in the discussion between evan/anonymint that by darksending it multiple times through a number of nodes it reduces the bad-actor probabilities to a statistically safe degree to solve the issue that the darksend node knows who sends what.

ok -- but with a timing analysis, the number of transactions in (let's say) a 60 second window will be relatively few, so it's not too hard to reconstruct what really happened, especially with uncommon amounts (e.g. I send you 16.023957).

Unless you force people to use 10/1/0.1/0.01 and everything is grouped in batches of that kind and it is stretched out over more time. I think this will be a case of continuous upgrade of the anonymity capabilities (DarkSend 1, 2, 3, 5, 10, 50 etc) with extra features / capabilities / improvements as we go along...

[TTM]

Seems the whales indeed found too shallow waters in DRK and moved on.

 Has correction been established? Whats the criteria?

Nope, this isn't correction. A lot people got in recent days because they expected Drk countinue growing and give them short term profits. If Drk don't increase any more in next 2-3 weeks, they'll start selling and price will slowly decrease.