[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[BusterNutBag]

This place is nothing but a troll fest
I think I'm done here...  fer good

[qwizzie]

yeahhh, more thread bumps from trolls that make posts that either nobody reads or that people in general forget 5 seconds after
having read them.

In the mean time it would be nice to see something posted thats truly Dash related and does not involve a reaction to known trolls (pref someone besides tungfa for a change).
Lets make it a challenge for this Dash  community : make posts that is Dash related and at the same time is not related to any troll that is posting their sad little business in our thread...
Who is up for it ? Unleash your creativity.... lets show as community that we are more then reactors. Lets act.

Which reminds me :

Disclosure of Dash Evolution imminent !!

New budget proposals are up!!! https://dashtalk.org/threads/december-2015-budget-proposal.7210/page-2#post-75483  Dashwhale has all the budget proposal information besides this discussion thread

Yeah now we are talking.. the important stuff. Vote people, let your voice be heard !!

I also hope everyone will take some time off soon as we have two lenghty white papers to struggle through over a few days ....  
How many pages were they again ? I just hope Evan has a readable handwriting or those whitepapers will form a challenge 

[aleix]

yeahhh, more thread bumps from trolls that make posts that either nobody reads or that people in general forget 5 seconds after
having read them.

In the mean time it would be nice to see something posted thats truly Dash related and does not involve a reaction to known trolls (pref someone besides tungfa for a change).
Lets make it a challenge for this Dash  community : make posts that is Dash related and at the same time is not related to any troll that is posting their sad little business in our thread...
Who is up for it ? Unleash your creativity.... lets show as community that we are more then reactors. Lets act.

Most of the good convesations, proposals, development and people moved to dashtalk.org long ago. This thread is to noisy to read and to have a rational conversation (yes, this is the Trolleros only achievement).

Trolls and fudsters are killing Bitcointalk (this is not only a Dash problem).

[bigrcanada]

This place is nothing but a troll fest
I think I'm done here...  fer good

I concur.  It's funny as they  seems to think that by spewing here that it might effect investment in DASH.  LOL. Serious well healed investors don't look for their investment insight on nerd fest boards. And any small fry that they may influence with their nonsense we are way better off without because their obviously to lazy to do real research, imo.

[toknormal]

I'm "spinning my wheels" on the fact that one cryptocurrency supports a public consensus audit of its veracity. The other does not.

You are completely spinning your wheels.

Both allow that, if the cryptographic functions check out. Both do not, if the cryptographic functions do not check out.

It appears I need to spell this point it out.

Lets then consider a random sample group of 3 addresses and 3 transactions between those addresses (resulting in 6 corresponding balance movements). I'm going to audit the blockchain for that sample group using bog standard auditing techniques that any industry seasoned auditor would recognise - regardless of their familiarity with 'cryptocurrencies'.

The bitcoin-spending public does this intuitively every day on blockchain.info et al. I'm just presenting a formal version of what they do here to quantify the process.

We'll create a full set of accounts as analogues to the blockchain addresses - i.e. the asset (balance sheet) perspective, the turnover (income/expense) perspective and the detailed transaction history.

First: The asset accounts (our 'balance sheet detail') is basically just what you can find on any public-consensus blockchain explorer such as blockchain.info.

Next: The income and expenditure statements which may have been compiled from our own records.

Finally: We combine the balances from each of the perspectives above into a single "trial" balance. This will tell us if there are discrepancies amongst our own records, what the wallet tells us, what blockchain.info tells us and what we understand the transaction history to have been:

So my trial balance balances and Bob's my Auntie Alice this time. Debits equal credits and I can go and feed the cat.

Now try doing that on a cryptonote blockchain. You're screwed. Half the data isn't available. Even if you're only checking your own transactions you can't do such an audit because you cannot construct a trial balance - and CONCLUSIVELY not for a random set of addresses. You may have most of the information in the income statement but not the balances in the relevant blockchain addresses.

The fact that millions of users are carrying out this type of audit - albeit informally - every second of every day on almost every address (implicitly) in the blockchain is why public blockchain cryptocurrencies can be unbacked. It is public consensus integrity that underwrites public consensus value and it isn't substitutable by any 'math'.

Privacy Considerations
The challenge for cryptos therefore, is to support privacy demands against this background. Thats the difficult part.

Of course you can create privacy by obscuring something. The clothes in someone's wardrobe are totally 'colour-fungible' as long as the wardrobe stays closed. But w.t.f. is the point of colour in the first place then ? It's an emperor's clothes scenario.

Thats why obscured blockchains are ten a penny - they are "off the shelf" software that barely require any developers which is why they sprouted up like mushrooms after a rainshower last year. But who cares when it isn't money anymore. It just takes one rogue wallet to be mass marketed and confidence is up the spout and value down the drain. What use is "math" when nobody can tell (using the most basic of century old techniques described above) what's going on on the blockchain.

Nor is 'public consensus' the only reason why public blockchains are fundamental to engendering value, there are down to earth practical ones as well. Dispute resolution in commerce (not using 'viewkeys' because the payee doesn't want to give me it), partial record keeping (such as the income/expenditure side without the balance sheet side which is common in about a zillion business), and simple promotion of financial integrity to name but three.

[iCEBREAKER]

FUD denigrating zero-knowledge proofs and homomorphic functions only effects low-information housewife and farmer types who don't understand any maths higher than geometry.

Someone who refuses to acknowledge cryptographic math will never accept cryptocurrency of any kind because under those conditions it is impossible to have confidence that your coins are secure and that you will be able to spend them when you need to. As much as toknormal tries, he is spinning his wheels on this idiotic concept that one particular form of cryptography is good and another kind is bad.

The only audience with which his version of reality is likely to have any sort of resonance is a subset of Bitcoin users who have somehow accepted Bitcoin's use of elliptic curve cryptography as secure but suddenly turn into Luddites when it comes to a blockchain with a different but also mature and well-vetted use of elliptic curve cryptography. It is a tiny sliver indeed.

At this point, with the relevant facts explained to him on several occasions, toknormal must know better and so forfeits the protections of Hanlon's razor.

What a malicious scumbag, trying to sell his snake oil using nonsense about "public" vs "private" blockchains.  Satoshi wept.

[iCEBREAKER]

[fascinating opinions]

You should put these groundbreaking cryptoanalytic discoveries into a formalized paper and submit it to Ledger for peer review.

I'm sure they will be very impressed.

[iCEBREAKER]

As much as toknormal tries, he is spinning his wheels on this idiotic concept that one particular form of cryptography is good and another kind is bad.

No. I'm "spinning my wheels" on the fact that one cryptocurrency supports a public consensus audit of its veracity. The other does not.

Nothing to do with cryptographic b.s. or even math.

To do with seeing and counting by the people who are being asked to endorse it with value - i.e. the public (as opposed to a bank).

They don't understand anything, Toknormal.  They're thick as a brick.  It's also absolutely something an obfuscated blockchain, like cryptonote, can never fix, so they will purposefully remain thick.

TokStefana, are you saying Dash doesn't have an "obfuscated blockchain?"

If Dash's blockchain isn't obfuscated, how does it protect privacy and anonymity?

 

[DrkLvr_]

Your opening line says it all:

It appears I need to spell this point it out.

Fail


Another gem:

The fact that millions of users are carrying out this type of audit - albeit informally - every second of every day on almost every address (implicitly) in the blockchain is why public blockchain cryptocurrencies can be unbacked. It is public consensus integrity that underwrites public consensus value and it isn't substitutable by any 'math'.

Throw away all that useless 'math' folks, we've got 'public consensus'  

[smooth]

I'm "spinning my wheels" on the fact that one cryptocurrency supports a public consensus audit of its veracity. The other does not.

You are completely spinning your wheels.

Both allow that, if the cryptographic functions check out. Both do not, if the cryptographic functions do not check out.

It appears I need to spell this point it out.

No, it appears that you still don't understand how cryptocurrencies work. Blockchain.info is not the blockchain, it is a view of the blockchain that is filtered through the cryptographic verification that occurs on blockchain.info's node, and then a bunch of database and web operations that are able to partially interpret that underlying data.

Addresses and balances of addresses don't even necessarily exist for every output. Some outputs, which happen to be of a type that outputs to a hash are commonly interpreted as "addresses", which block explorers then used to calculate an address, but outputs can be any legal script and need not correspond to any address at all.

Sorry, but your mental model of Bitcoin/Dash/etc. in term of address credits and debits as the fundamental basis of integrity is just flat out wrong. What exists are individual outputs which get spent with redeem scripts. The cryptographic verification is what proves the redeem scripts are valid. That exists for any coin that uses valid cryptography.

[qwizzie]

Dash regained rank 5 on coinmarketcap and is also back in the 0.0062 price range : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1233119.msg13126623#msg13126623

[BagHolder010]

The great thing about DASH is that it's the topic on everyone's minds. 

<dEBRUYNE> All right
<dEBRUYNE> I´ll let you know what dnaleor thinks about it (will just copy him this conversation).
<fluffypony> kk
<dEBRUYNE> Btw, if I may ask, how are the performance issues proceeding? (This is regarding your post on reddit)
<fluffypony> it's going
<fluffypony> that's NoodleDoodle's domain right now
<fluffypony> and he's made excellent progress
<fluffypony> hard to tell when he'll be done
<dEBRUYNE> Nice to hear, let him take his time :-P
<dEBRUYNE> I rather have something right than a network split a few days after the release of the tagged version :p
<fluffypony> agreed
<fluffypony> this isn't Dash with "sporks"
<dEBRUYNE> I still don´t get the spork thing :p
<dEBRUYNE> Do you perhaps know what it exactly is?
<dEBRUYNE> It atleast isn´t decentralized
<fluffypony> basically he wraps new code into a little block
<fluffypony> and then he can use Bitcoin's alerting system to enable / disable it
<dEBRUYNE> So if he turns malicious one day they are basically fucked?
<fluffypony> yes
<dEBRUYNE> Or under a gag order or whatever
<dEBRUYNE> That´s kinda scary
<fluffypony> he can leave some dormant code in there and then remotely enable it
<fluffypony> and they're too retarded to even notice
<dEBRUYNE> <fluffypony> and they're too retarded to even notice <= Yeah reading their thread alone makes my brain cringe
<fluffypony> lol
<dEBRUYNE> They behave as a cult though
<fluffypony> yip
<dEBRUYNE> I find it odd that they call him by his first name
<dEBRUYNE> It´s not like we call you Ric all day on the forum
<fluffypony> lol
<dEBRUYNE> imagine that
<dEBRUYNE> And otoh is still buying
<dEBRUYNE> I think my finance professor would get a sudden heart attack if he sees his portfolio
<fluffypony> lol

The two most talked about Monero topics are GUI wallet and Dash.

Well hopefully this is the end of dEBRUYNE crap talk here *It's not me look I am nice only here to promote XMR shit* they probably planned everything with dnlear instead of actually working to create not anything new but just ANYTHING that is supposed to work with XMR after copying Bytecoin. + low grade developer criticizing Evan for he's awesome work that he wouldn't even come up with a simple GUI wallet nor he will come up with amazing idea like MN's + instant transactions even if he stayed in a class room studying for the next 10 years.

dEBRUYNE  can you go back to ur shitty coin dead ANN thread now ?

Also wow Smooth now talks about crypto currency's when he didn't do anything the past 2 years as a Monero developer....a true cry"p"to in to forum type of low grade developer lol. I bet u read this forum everyday for 3 hours along with 10 monero ppl talking about it on Skype with each other LOL.

P.S no really do you? 

[smoothie]

Empty promises:

The ring signatures V2, has a follow-up post which has been conveniently omitted. V1 didn't have the DarkSend that is now implemented, rather something like 3x10 DRK, one round. It was real-time, in the sense that you had to transact (DarkSending money) as you were mixing.

I wrote something to the effect that ring signatures are DOA / they don't scale, and then Evan thought of another way to improve mixing, and V2 came out with premixing (no need to mix when sending, which improved speed massively as the money were ready to get spent), multiple rounds, various denominations etc.

So people did get a much upgraded V2, although through a different implementation.

Link please to the follow up post.

Also please link me also to the PROOF that ring signatures don't scale.

I want to see actual numbers/math/facts. Not hand waving.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg6815040#msg6815040 => "I have 2 possible solutions to evaluate for V2 of darksend (ring signatures and encrypted system where the users themselves do the joining relayed through the masternodes.) . Both of these make the masternodes unaware of who is sending money to whom, so centralization isn't an issue at that point."
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg6862900#msg6862900
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg6864666#msg6864666

As for "proof", well Bitcoin as it is can't scale. It'd need petabytes to compete with payment systems like VISA. You think a coin that generates multiple bloat per transaction, can?

It's called pruning.

You can prune the block chain down to a certain subset of transactions and the network of nodes would still function normally.

Perhaps all crypto coins are not attempting to directly compete with VISA/MASTERCARD. I'm guessing that based on your statement that Dash is attempting to compete with VISA etc?

I'm not sure how Dash is expecting to accomplish this task in a decentralized/private way while still having DATA CENTERS or collocations setup specifically to run masternodes.

May as well just use VISA.

If the max supply of dash is let's say 25,000,000 (i can't remember the max at it is dependent on difficulty?) that means that the maximum amount of masternodes that could exist is 25,000 using my example cap. I'm pretty sure there are more bank locations than 25,000 world wide.

What happens when 1000 dash costs $1,000,000? Isn't that a problem when you have such a high barrier to entry? It doesn't sound like decentralization but quite the opposite.

It's like the barrier to entry of opening your own bank location (you have to have $X to do so).

Is that supposed to be a criticism ?  

smoothie logic: hey - gold has a high value, thats a "barrier to entry".

It sure is, I'll give you that  

Look at your broken logic.

I can buy 1 gram of gold for $50.

I can't buy 1 "gram" of  a masternode for $X. (you can't buy a fractional amount of a masternode).

Buying gold has nothing to do with being a "mastergoldnode"....<----doesn't exist.

The barrier to entry exists for dash...not for gold.

Go back to the drawing board and come up with a better point of view that makes sense.

Spin moar, I like the way you dance.  

THEN:

You can't break a master node up into pieces and buy portions of it...

Please tell these websites that their pooled masternode services can't exist. If they ask why, just tell them because smoothie said so, that should convince them. If that doesn't work tell them their logic is broken.

https://masternode.me/
https://node40.com/#/
http://dash.org.ru/pages/mn-en.php
http://regato.io/

One phrase comes to mind: "If you don't hold it (in your possession) you don't own it".

lol let's now introduce a 3rd party into the whole discussion of owning a masternode. lol

Throw COUNTER-PARTY RISK into the mix as well.

Great idea!

 

Your point is MOOT.

The whole discussion was about ACTUALLY OWNING a masternode. And the BARRIER to entry that DASH presents users of ACTUALLY owning a master node as opposed the non-barrier of owning any size portion of gold you want (gram, mg, etc).

You can hold gold in your possession in a tiny quantity. You can't do that with a MASTERNODE.

The barrier to entry does not apply to precious metals.

The barrier does exist with Masternodes of Dash.


If you purchase a "share" of a masternode from a 3rd party you have the following problems:

1. It is not in your possession.

2. You don't actually control it (no matter how much a 3rd party tells you that you have a say). They can vote/use it how they want.

You are attempting to prove that my statement about Toknormal's broken logic was unjustified because "people can buy into the theatrics of owning a portion of a masternode via a 3rd party centralized service".

You failed miserably to make your point sir.

 

Try buying any shares today without a trusted 3rd party and you'll have to deal in person only. We do not live in a decentralised world just yet. Perhaps in the future the will be some sort of option for masternodes similar to preferred stock and common stock will be possible, in which common stockholders receive voting rights in exchange for a smaller payout compared to preferred stockholders.

I'm not sure why you're talking about gold, are you trying to sell some coins?

Gold is inferior to cryptocurrencies in many ways. To list a few:

• It is divisible, but not really in a practical sense for most gold holders, shaving off a little to make a micropayment would lead to the stated weight being inaccurate - I imagine most purchases of gold are by weight and the weight of each piece usually appears somewhere on the piece, but correct me if I'm wrong.
• It is not convenient to send, certainly not in large quantities without spending quite significant amounts to ensure its arrival
• It is possible to conterfeit, for example by gold plating tungsten bars

Gold certainly has some great qualities but it is not the holy grail that every other asset should aspire to.

Maybe this will help you in why Gold was brought up to show the barrier to entry argument ^

1. That is why I don't buy anything that has counter party risk (especially shares in something). But that does not constitute a great argument for having a "barrier to entry" when you are subjected to counter party risk and you have to trust the person who is selling you the shares. Wasn't crypto currency about not having to trust someone?

2. Gold comment is addressed above in the quotes.

3. Gold and Crypto have pros and cons. You can't get something for nothing. When you get decentralized/electronic crypto you lose tangibility and in many cases fungibility/privacy. I agree gold isn't the holy grail...but it DOESN'T HAVE A FINANCIAL BARRIER TO ENTRY.



My point was that having a 1000 dash barrier to entry at all is silly. You don't have a financial barrier to entry when you buy gold, bitcoin, litecoin, etc...

Since there is supposedly only a limited supply of dash...that then means there is a limited amount of dash masternodes that can be put into place at any one time. There is an upper cap to this.

[smoothie]

how many rats did i got in my trap   hehehe

It's rare to see such an open admission of trolling like that.

You need to do a better job of perpetuating your illusion of "protecting" us unwitting investors.  You're not allowed to have fun, because you need to keep up that "oh-so-concerned" facade. This is serious stuff, you know... after all, it's MY money (DASH) you're talking about, not yours.  

Seriously though, what you don't seem to realize is that rich guys will never listen to poor guys because a logical person only ever listens to someone whom he wants to emulate.   So unless an investor wants to become poor, he will completely ignore trolls and follow either his own instincts or the example of those who are more successful than him.

So far, you've demonstrated only ineptitude in the field of investment, based on your admitted holdings of the defunct DSH bytecoin-clone.  It is comical that you expect any investor here to listen to you; you come across as one of those bearded homeless guys on Wall Street holding up a sign of "the end is near!" as successful businessmen pass by.   Some advice: Figure out who your target audience is, then work on your image if you expect to even have a slight chance of convincing anyone.

Some of us that oppose Dash and its supporters are not here to protect you.

I am here to warn others who are new to crypto to look deep into what DASH is before investing into it.

Just like I have warned others about BFL, PirateAt40, MTGOX, and SOLIDCOIN

[smoothie]

hi folks,

using darksend for the first time and have to say its takin ages to complete. i set it to four rounds and its mixing since 20h now!

Wow...20 hours?

Doesn't sound very optimized.

Has it sent yet as of my post here?

[Sub-Ether]

Withdraw DASH not work on cryptsy , still have problem withdraw othercoins 

I had a small bitcoin withdrawal pending for 1 week, did a ticket and they cancelled it the same day.
The tiny amounts of dash that I was day trading have been withdrawing without getting stuck in pending but take upto 24 hours, I heard Doge is faster (not difficult eh)

My conclusion is that its more hassle than its worth trading on Cryptsy, a lot of messing about for a little bit of arbritrage.

[smoothie]

I'm "spinning my wheels" on the fact that one cryptocurrency supports a public consensus audit of its veracity. The other does not.

You are completely spinning your wheels.

Both allow that, if the cryptographic functions check out. Both do not, if the cryptographic functions do not check out.

It appears I need to spell this point it out.

No, it appears that you still don't understand how cryptocurrencies work. Blockchain.info is not the blockchain, it is a view of the blockchain that is filtered through the cryptographic verification that occurs on blockchain.info's node, and then a bunch of database and web operations that are able to partially interpret that underlying data.

Addresses and balances of addresses don't even necessarily exist for every output. Some outputs, which happen to be of a type that outputs to a hash are commonly interpreted as "addresses", which block explorers then used to calculate an address, but outputs can be any legal script and need not correspond to any address at all.

Sorry, but your mental model of Bitcoin/Dash/etc. in term of address credits and debits as the fundamental basis of integrity is just flat out wrong. What exists are individual outputs which get spent with redeem scripts. The cryptographic verification is what proves the redeem scripts are valid. That exists for any coin that uses valid cryptography.

As someone who has supposedly invested in dash "crypto" he would understand this...no less he is posting on a BITCOINtalk.org forum.

/Quadruple-face-palm.jpg

[megges]

FYI: there are coins out there that have default instant mixing without involving counterparties and that even can be done offline.

If you are mixing, you are always mixing with someone else. And he can single you out (sybil attack).

There is a huge difference between Sybil attack at one particular time and Sybil attack over all time. Cost is one aspect of it, but not the only one. The former does allow you to be singled out and targeted and the latter does not. There is also an interference effect where multiple non-cooperating parties all trying to attack cancel each other out. This is forced if the attack can only go after the entire chain. But if the attacks can be targeted, different targets will likely have different attackers, so lack of interference is possible. The only possible Sybil attack on an entire chain requires not only that such an attack exist, but that there be only one attacker (attacking via a large premine is one way to start to accomplish this, although even then you have to continue the attack indefinitely or it will eventually burn out).

I really hope you will stand up with exactly this argument, if one of your XMR shill will point out again that DASH is unsafe because someone can own all the masternodes, and so deanonymize every darksend transactions!

[MasterMined710]

hi folks,

using darksend for the first time and have to say its takin ages to complete. i set it to four rounds and its mixing since 20h now!

Wow...20 hours?

Doesn't sound very optimized.

Has it sent yet as of my post here?

has it sent yet, lol. obviously you don't even know how it works. like "most" coins we have a official gui that you need to check out sometime. your dev smooth can show you how it works with his DASH stash, y'all could intanTX each other, wouldn't that be fun.

i started mixing about an hour ago and have 57% complete with 4 rounds. i just checked and already have around ~35% in my darksend balance ready to be instantly and anonymously sent anywhere using instanTX and darksend.
but yeah it's not optimized like evolution will be which from what i understand is instant and anonymized by default, something like that. either way you and smooth are gonna love it.

[smoothie]

hi folks,

using darksend for the first time and have to say its takin ages to complete. i set it to four rounds and its mixing since 20h now!

Wow...20 hours?

Doesn't sound very optimized.

Has it sent yet as of my post here?

...personal attacks...nonsense

Obviously I was asking him and not you.

But you can troll on if you must. You probably should go and sharpen your hypocrisy skills. Everyone likes a good hypocrite