1GH/s, 20w, $500 — Butterflylabs, is it a scam?

[Dexter770221]

The funny think about these PCB photos is: The I/O bandwidth bitcoin needs is absolutely pathetic even not worth mentioning. If that were actually a made product they would be very, very stupid to use such a expensive (many pins) packaging for the chips if there were ASICs inside and use it as a bitcoin miner.

Not to mention need for 6 layer PCB... That's quiet expensive in small amounts. It should be possible to fit that design on 4 layer PCB, easily. With some troubles on 2 layer...

[1713534570]

1713534570

[P4man]

4 layers is considered the minimum for a (single) spartan 6 PCB. 16+ layers is fairly common, a SP601 evaluation board has 16,  although that many is not likely needed for bitcoin because IO requirements are extremely low. 6 sounds about right to me, and its really not that expensive at all.

[eldentyrell_old]

The funny think about these PCB photos is: The I/O bandwidth bitcoin needs is absolutely pathetic even not worth mentioning. If that were actually a made product they would be very, very stupid to use such a expensive (many pins) packaging for the chips if there were ASICs inside and use it as a bitcoin miner.

There is no doubt in my mind that this is a scam.

However, BGA packages aren't just about I/O.  The chip actually dissapates a lot of heat through the pins -- there's a direct all-metal thermal path from the die surface to the PCB through those pins.  More pins means more heat dissapation.  More pins also means more power entry points on the die surface, so less current per pad, which improves reliability.

So, this is a scam, but even non-scam bitcoin chips would probably come in BGA packages -- but all those pins would be for bringing power in and heat out, not for I/O.

[makomk]

The funny think about these PCB photos is: The I/O bandwidth bitcoin needs is absolutely pathetic even not worth mentioning. If that were actually a made product they would be very, very stupid to use such a expensive (many pins) packaging for the chips if there were ASICs inside and use it as a bitcoin miner.

If they were using a structured ASIC from somewhere like Altera or Xilinx, those are only available in specific BGA packages (at least if the marketing material is correct). It looks to be about the right number of balls for one of their FPGAs or sASICs too.

Edit: If it is a scam, I doubt you'll be able to catch them out on any of the technical details; everything so far seems to be just within the bounds of possibility.

[eldentyrell]

4 layers is considered the minimum for a (single) spartan 6 PCB.

Nah, just if you're part of a big organization (or lazy).

If you have the same person do both the schematic and layout you can get away with two layers.  You just need the freedom to be able to tweak the schematic to make the layout easier.  Most big-time projects farm out the layout work to "grunts" who aren't allowed to change the schematic... so they need four layers to make up for the lack of flexibility.  If you're making a bazillion boards this is sometimes the right way to go.

By the way, not sure if anybody's mentioned this, but those PCB landing sites are not for Spartan-6 chips; they're missing a pin on each corner, whereas the Spartan footprint is a perfect rectangle with no irregularities like that (and you can't just "leave out" a pad -- the chip won't reflow).

[P4man]

4 layers is considered the minimum for a (single) spartan 6 PCB.

Nah, just if you're part of a big organization (or lazy).

Or you dont want to spend too much time (and therefore money) optimizing for what will be a low volume product. And more importantly, especially in a first batch you likely want extra test and measurement features. Regardless if 2 layers is theoretically possible, 6 aint unreasonable at all.

By the way, not sure if anybody's mentioned this, but those PCB landing sites are not for Spartan-6 chips; they're missing a pin on each corner, whereas the Spartan footprint is a perfect rectangle with no irregularities like that (and you can't just "leave out" a pad -- the chip won't reflow).

I dont think anyone ever said they use a spartan 6. I was just using that as a reference, I have no clue what they are using. Could you make an educated guess from that PCB and their claimed specs?

[makomk]

By the way, not sure if anybody's mentioned this, but those PCB landing sites are not for Spartan-6 chips; they're missing a pin on each corner, whereas the Spartan footprint is a perfect rectangle with no irregularities like that (and you can't just "leave out" a pad -- the chip won't reflow).

There's too many pins for that really, too - you basically want the smallest pin-count version of the device you can get, and for Spartan-6 that's a lot smaller. I count 780 pins, which coincidentally is the smallest pincount that Altera Stratix III and IV and their HardCopy versions are available in. (The highest-pincount version of Cyclone III and IV E is also 780.) Though as I've said it's somewhat unlikely anyone will prove this is a scam based on technical details.

[ElectricMucus]

The funny think about these PCB photos is: The I/O bandwidth bitcoin needs is absolutely pathetic even not worth mentioning. If that were actually a made product they would be very, very stupid to use such a expensive (many pins) packaging for the chips if there were ASICs inside and use it as a bitcoin miner.

There is no doubt in my mind that this is a scam.

However, BGA packages aren't just about I/O.  The chip actually dissapates a lot of heat through the pins -- there's a direct all-metal thermal path from the die surface to the PCB through those pins.  More pins means more heat dissapation.  More pins also means more power entry points on the die surface, so less current per pad, which improves reliability.

So, this is a scam, but even non-scam bitcoin chips would probably come in BGA packages -- but all those pins would be for bringing power in and heat out, not for I/O.

Of course but QFP packages come with a heat pad too and supplying power (ground) can usually archived through these.
Think of it for each of these pins you need to pay for the assembly robot to do one or two repetitions. Internal losses from wires are also not that of an issue if the smallest package dimensions are chosen so the wiring is short.

I mean if those were 20GH 100W chips I could be convinced that those are power pins but even then GPUs come in smaller packages.

[fizzisist]

Ok, so my initial research shows that this may be legit. Numbers are very possible, and  multiple sources say they have heard of butterfly labs in regards to other products. So dont bash it yet. But buyer beware.

I'm curious, what other products were they known for? It doesn't look like they list any other products on their website.

[RandyFolds]

Ok, so my initial research shows that this may be legit. Numbers are very possible, and  multiple sources say they have heard of butterfly labs in regards to other products. So dont bash it yet. But buyer beware.

I'm curious, what other products were they known for? It doesn't look like they list any other products on their website.

You mean vistaprint coffee cups and mousepads don't count?

[shakaru]

Ok, so my initial research shows that this may be legit. Numbers are very possible, and  multiple sources say they have heard of butterfly labs in regards to other products. So dont bash it yet. But buyer beware.

I'm curious, what other products were they known for? It doesn't look like they list any other products on their website.

I was told by someone who works in a PCB production facility out here in SoCal that they had heard of the name before and I am waiting to hear a confirmation on this. Also a member here told me something to the like.

[rph]

If it's not a scam - Altera Hardcopy seems like the most reasonable explanation.
But the pricing is still suspiciously low..

-rph

[Inaba]

I live in Kansas City and run the EMC bitcoin pool. I also work downtown. 

I can check this out any day of the week fairly easily.  I'll keep an eye on the thread, but there's no need to fly some out out here or ship a product out when I can just stop by at any time.

[sadpandatech]

I live in Kansas City and run the EMC bitcoin pool. I also work downtown. 

I can check this out any day of the week fairly easily.  I'll keep an eye on the thread, but there's no need to fly some out out here or ship a product out when I can just stop by at any time.

  You do realise this is in Kansas City, Missouri and not Kansas City, Kansas, right? 

[Inaba]

I live in Kansas City and run the EMC bitcoin pool. I also work downtown.  

I can check this out any day of the week fairly easily.  I'll keep an eye on the thread, but there's no need to fly some out out here or ship a product out when I can just stop by at any time.

  You do realise this is in Kansas City, Missouri and not Kansas City, Kansas, right?  

You do realize it's the same city, right?

I work about 4 minutes walk from the address listed.  I can connect the miner to my pool so I know there's no hinky business going on on the pool end, either.

............. KANSAS CITY METRO AREA ...........

....Inaba works here.... | | .... Inaba Lives here ....
...............|................. | | ...............|..................
...............v................ | | ...............v..................
...............X................ | | ...............X.................
................^................ | | ...............^.................
................|................. | | ...............| .................
.....Kansas City, Mo.....| | ....Kansas City, Ks.......
..................................| |....................................
..................................^...................................
................................. | ...................................
................................/  \ ..................................
............................Main Street..........................
<----- Dragons   ................................... Vampires ->
...................................................(Not sparkly kind)


*EDIT* - Actually, I just looked out the window.  The restaurant is across the street.  It would take me exactly 63 seconds to walk there from my desk, but only because I'm not on the ground floor and would have to traverse the stairs.

[sadpandatech]

I live in Kansas City and run the EMC bitcoin pool. I also work downtown.  

I can check this out any day of the week fairly easily.  I'll keep an eye on the thread, but there's no need to fly some out out here or ship a product out when I can just stop by at any time.

  You do realise this is in Kansas City, Missouri and not Kansas City, Kansas, right?  

You do realize it's the same city, right?

  I do now.

  I'm ashamed to be one more reason everyone thinks Americans are stupid. ;p  I've been west of the Mississippi one time to help my sister move to Dallas/Ft. Worth and don't think I even looked at a map of anything west of the MS River at that time. Shame on me.  

[digital]

Man, and I've always wondered where to find the sparkly kind...

[Inaba]

Man, and I've always wondered where to find the sparkly kind...

San Francisco.

[DeathAndTaxes]

You should figure out a way to encode that map into a transaction and put it into the blockchain.

[REF]

well what are you waiting for go check it out and tell us if its real! sure the product isnt ready yet but you should still be able to walk in the building. if its a real company there should be people working and someone to talk to.