1GH/s, 20w, $500 — Butterflylabs, is it a scam?

[Chaseshaw]

http://butterflylabs.com/products/

Their claims are not outside the realm of physical possibility like some past hardware miner scams have been— but they also don't appear to be possible, at least with current commercially available parts.

The webpage is very thin on evidence that they aren't a scam. The most compelling thing I've seen is that they're looking to hire someone who speaks mandarin, though while that bodes well for their honesty it doesn't bode well for their product actually existing.

I understand that a fair number of bitcoiners have sent them money (or, well, that they claim so— but I only know of one).

Anyone have any information?   It would be a pretty good deal if it were true.

I'd like to point out some syntax here. the website says nowhere the hashes apply to BITCOIN MINING. It just says hashes. "Ghash/sec" is still appropriate terminology for hashing for the purposes of decryption. I wouldn't be surprised if this is in fact a generic hashing FPGA, which can achieve these speeds. Whitepixel (http://blog.zorinaq.com/?e=42) can get 33 Ghash/sec on 4 5970s. That's SHA password hashes, not bitcoin hashes.

I'd expect butterflylabs is correct, but they are selling generic SHA hashing FPGAs. It is the bitcoin people who are unfamiliar with the terminology that assumed they were referring to mining. The page says nothing of the sort.

[punningclan]

FPGA is used exclusively with the actual costs of the boards being designed somewhat equivalent. Mhash's are about a quarter of the Butterfly labs card though but wattage is similar, they do say they use a combination of ASIC and FPGA.

The wattage is not "similar".  Other FPGA designs are getting about 20MH/W not 50MH/W. 250% improvement in electrical efficiency is massive.

Versus ~1000 Watts for GPU.

wat
pl0x to be showing me a GPU that noms 1000 watts, k?

Ahem, for GPUs..
I'm just saying it's all in the ballpark especially with 2 ASICs on shared dies?

[P4man]

I'd like to point out some syntax here. the website says nowhere the hashes apply to BITCOIN MINING. It just says hashes. "Ghash/sec" is still appropriate terminology for hashing for the purposes of decryption. I wouldn't be surprised if this is in fact a generic hashing FPGA, which can achieve these speeds. Whitepixel (http://blog.zorinaq.com/?e=42) can get 33 Ghash/sec on 4 5970s. That's SHA password hashes, not bitcoin hashes.

I'd expect butterflylabs is correct, but they are selling generic SHA hashing FPGAs. It is the bitcoin people who are unfamiliar with the terminology that assumed they were referring to mining. The page says nothing of the sort.

Click the order button and read on:

Performance: Each pre-order unit performs 1.05 Giga Hash / second (plus or minus 10% running variant) for a two step SHA256 process using Bitcoin block mining as a common measure of reference. Power consumption reaches a maximum of 19.8w under full load.

[sadpandatech]

I'd like to point out some syntax here. the website says nowhere the hashes apply to BITCOIN MINING. It just says hashes. "Ghash/sec" is still appropriate terminology for hashing for the purposes of decryption. I wouldn't be surprised if this is in fact a generic hashing FPGA, which can achieve these speeds. Whitepixel (http://blog.zorinaq.com/?e=42) can get 33 Ghash/sec on 4 5970s. That's SHA password hashes, not bitcoin hashes.

I'd expect butterflylabs is correct, but they are selling generic SHA hashing FPGAs. It is the bitcoin people who are unfamiliar with the terminology that assumed they were referring to mining. The page says nothing of the sort.

Click the order button and read on:

Performance: Each pre-order unit performs 1.05 Giga Hash / second (plus or minus 10% running variant) for a two step SHA256 process using Bitcoin block mining as a common measure of reference. Power consumption reaches a maximum of 19.8w under full load.

  Thank you.   

[bulanula]

Any more news from BFL people ? This is taking quite some time to get to market. I want to swap my loud, hot GPUs for some cool, quite FPGAs made out of magic unicorn dust ASAP.

[Inaba]

I can confirm there is a 2 BTC bet for:

2 months +8 days left now until bet default end. 25% spread on wattage, 25% spread on hash rate from the stated baseline of 1050MHs and 50w. Bet is met/lost either when BFL provide '*acceptable' proof or disproof of claim, or defaulted at the end of 2 months and 8 days if no unit is provided to verify claim. A total of 6 BTC to be held in escrow and sent in total to the winner or returned to betters if bet default.

Assuming Goat takes you up on it, he should send 4 BTC to 1CzKrTnncqVuviR9iyBBL5KBJkHUtv4Sjp .

Can you define what you mean by "defaulted" in this context?  My understanding that the bet is won for negative proof if the device fails to live up to the hashrate OR power consumption within 25% of margin OR 2 months and 8 days elapse without a workable unit.  The bet is won for positive proof if and only if the device performs within 25% of it's advertised hashrate AND power consumption, on the low side.  If it out performs there is no upper bound and the bet is considered won for positive proof.

Negative proof win is for Goat
Positive proof win is for Sadpandatech

Is this correct?

[sadpandatech]

Can you define what you mean by "defaulted" in this context?  My understanding that the bet is won for negative proof if the device fails to live up to the hashrate OR power consumption within 25% of margin OR 2 months and 8 days elapse without a workable unit.  The bet is won for positive proof if and only if the device performs within 25% of it's advertised hashrate AND power consumption, on the low side.  If it out performs there is no upper bound and the bet is considered won for positive proof.

Negative proof win is for Goat
Positive proof win is for Sadpandatech

Is this correct?

   Yes, this is correct.  I had intended for 'default' to mean if we still had nothing to test at stated end time. But, that would not be fair to the other better. So, in hindsight I agree to the terms as amended by you.


  Thank you, Inaba!


       Derek

[bulanula]

You guys are getting too worked up over this betting stuff

We just want to see BFL deliver the said product.

[Inaba]

I received the coins.  There is a total of 14 coins in the bet.  

To confirm: The entire bet of 14 coins goes to the winner, correct?

[uck]

Hi guys,

Hi there, is this where you work? http://maps.google.com/maps?q=25E+12th+Street+Kansas+City,+Missouri+64106&hl=en&ll=39.099352,-94.581792&spn=0.006927,0.013937&sll=39.099854,-94.582433&layer=c&cbp=13,182.5,,0,-18.13&cbll=39.099928,-94.58243&hnear=25+E+12+St,+Kansas+City,+Jackson,+Missouri+64106&t=m&z=17&vpsrc=0&panoid=lhf4bpBBG1xVb51eihmWyA

Not sure how you located that but if you look at the windows on the building outside in the "coffee cup" picture, they match the windows on the building 'next to' the location you found (look way up in google streetview).

[sadpandatech]

Well, I sent 12 coins so I hope that there is a total of 14. And yes, the total of 14 should go to the winner.

  Balance can be confirmed here; http://blockexplorer.com/address/1CzKrTnncqVuviR9iyBBL5KBJkHUtv4Sjp

[bulanula]

I think we will be in for a shock

[Inaba]

Sorry, I meant 14, not 12

[P4man]

Hey goat, I want in too!
Either you bet me on bets of bitcoin where you have a 7/5.25 odds advantage, or, if for some reason you dont want that, Ill take those 10-1 2-1 staggered odds with Inaba too. Just tell me how much you want to bet.

[runeks]

Extending on btc_novice and uck's comments. We have a connection between their claimed address and the "coffee cup" photo on their November blog entry:
http://butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/BF-Single-3.jpg
http://butterflylabs.com/november-production-update/

Their address, as claimed by their website, is:

25E 12th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106

This is the overview, of the building in Google Maps.

Here we are on the corner of E 12th St and Walnut St, looking at the building they are supposedly in.

Now look down Walnut St, at the building on the left of Walnut St (their building is on the right). Look at the windows, they look at lot like the windows in the "coffee cup" picture. Also, look at the reflection in the windows on the "coffee cup" picture, they look a lot like the windows on the building on the right side of Walnut St in the Google Street View picture above (their supposed address).
A better view of the windows in question is here.
It looks like the coffee cup picture was indeed taken from the building on 25E 12th St through a window across Walnut St.

Of course, this only - seemingly - proves they have been inside the building that corresponds to the address on their site. Not that they've made the product they claimed to have made. Still interesting though.

[avoid3d]

I want someone to go by there again now

[DeathAndTaxes]

I want someone to go by there again now

The last person who went said the lofts were locked and there were no signs for the business.  So going there without an invite is useless.

[Inaba]

Here's a couple pictures of the two buildings in question I just took (from the opposite side of street of each building in question):

http://eclipsemc.com/files/IMAG0048.jpg
http://eclipsemc.com/files/IMAG0049.jpg

They look the same to me.  I would say the pictures are taken from the 3rd or 4th floor of Chambers Lofts.

Yes, the lofts are locked and the only way in is a keypad or access card.  I think there is actually an intercom on the keypad, but I don't fancy the idea of calling people randomly from the keypad and demanding access, nor do I think BFL would want someone randomly showing up at the door.

[P4man]

Inaba, do I send my 10 coins to the same address ? 1CzKrTnncqVuviR9iyBBL5KBJkHUtv4Sjp ?

[Inaba]

No, let me make a new address tonight and you can Goat can send them to that, just so we can keep each bet separate.  I suppose if I am to be a bookie, I should bring a BTC client with me to work, heh

I should open up a betting joint along with the pool.. then you can just transfer your funds from the pool to the horses and away you go.