Bitcoin Forum
October 20, 2019, 04:20:19 AM *
News: 10th anniversary art contest
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 [26] 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 ... 93 »
  Print  
Author Topic: DefaultTrust changes  (Read 52081 times)
mrcash02
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1176
Merit: 525


View Profile
January 14, 2019, 01:12:09 AM
 #501

The trust system is constantly abused for political as well as likely organized criminal purposes. It provides cover for these people to abuse honest contributing members of the forum with impunity. The question is not if they help, it is at what cost? The cost is consistently driving away MANY new users who simply didn't understand the unwritten mob rules enforced here. The thief simply spends a few bucks on a new account and is back in minutes. Legitimate users burned this way don't come back, perpetually putting us in a feedback loop of driving away the decent user base while providing cover for the cons.

Blindly following the trust is a HUGE issue. There is no way to even know if the same person is truly in control of the account any more at the end of the day, and purporting otherwise is disingenuous and only harms the people it was designed to protect most, the newer users. It is at its best little more than a notification system for people to warn others of suspect behavior, and at worst a system of protecting organized crime and mobbing cliques.

"The only people you see complain are mostly the ones that have actually been caught with doing something bad.."

That sounds like something dirty cops say when some one tries to get the cop to follow the law too... the rules are for thee and not for me.

Could you give me a few examples?


There are rules set for this forum, as well as guidelines. If they are not followed and a new member gets negative trust for something that was against that, is it not deserved? I'm not really sure that it affects as many people as you paint it out to be.

I'd also like to request an example of organized crime that is being protected by the current trust system as that sounds like a conspiracy theory at best.

Do you want an example? Read this if you have some spare time and patience: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3203842.msg33253868#msg33253868

Curiously it was just ignored.

Up to $200 in BTCs every hour! 80% of my personal comission back to you every week!
More than 0.015 btc already paid back to referrals! https://freebitco.in/?r=1834314
1571545219
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1571545219

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1571545219
Reply with quote  #2

1571545219
Report to moderator
1571545219
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1571545219

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1571545219
Reply with quote  #2

1571545219
Report to moderator
1571545219
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1571545219

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1571545219
Reply with quote  #2

1571545219
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1571545219
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1571545219

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1571545219
Reply with quote  #2

1571545219
Report to moderator
suchmoon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2100
Merit: 4128


Pedal-powered plaguebot


View Profile
January 14, 2019, 01:16:39 AM
 #502

Each user's number of "votes" in the last two criteria will be limited to floor(earned_merit / (10 or 250, depending on the criteria)).

So for example, someone with 518 earned merits could cast up to 2 votes in the 250-merit criteria and up to 51 votes in the 10-merit criteria, if I'm getting this right.

Someone with 72 earned merits could cast up to 7 votes in the 10-merit criteria and obviously none in the 250.

o_e_l_e_o
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 714
Merit: 2902


Decent


View Profile
January 14, 2019, 01:20:52 AM
Last edit: January 14, 2019, 01:31:44 AM by o_e_l_e_o
 #503

-snip-
Presumably they could also have some combination of 250-votes and 10-votes to bring them up their earned merit limit.

My question is, let's say a hypothetical user with 10 earned merits has two users on their trust list, and both these users are one vote away from becoming DT1. How does the system decide who gets it?

suchmoon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2100
Merit: 4128


Pedal-powered plaguebot


View Profile
January 14, 2019, 01:28:32 AM
 #504

Presumably they could also have some combination of 250-votes and 10-votes to bring them up their earned merit limit.

I assume both can be used in full, i.e. using the 250-votes doesn't reduce the number of available 10-votes (or maybe I should call them "ballots" to not confuse with the person getting the votes).

My question is, let's say a hypothetical user with 10 earned merits has two users on their trust list, and both these users are one vote away from becoming DT1. How does the system decide who gets it?

Lauda gets it.

o_e_l_e_o
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 714
Merit: 2902


Decent


View Profile
January 14, 2019, 01:31:25 AM
 #505

I assume both can be used in full, i.e. using the 250-votes doesn't reduce the number of available 10-votes (or maybe I should call them "ballots" to not confuse with the person getting the votes).
I think you're right. I had assumed the opposite - a combined total - but on re-reading theymos' post, I am probably mistaken.

Lauda gets it.
Which one?

mikeywith
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 560
Merit: 1339


be constructive or S.T.F.U


View Profile
January 14, 2019, 01:40:06 AM
 #506


My question is, let's say a hypothetical user with 10 earned merits has two users on their trust list, and both these users are one vote away from becoming DT1. How does the system decide who gets it?

simply put, the user with the 10 earned merit will decide to whom his vote goes to, regardless of how many users are on his trust list and how close/far they are from becoming DT1.

this could be done by giving the vote to whoever is at the top of your list ,indeed after the current sort-by criteria is changed to allow full control of ordering.



the hard part with be " assuming this is accurate"

I assume both can be used in full, i.e. using the 250-votes doesn't reduce the number of available 10-votes (or maybe I should call them "ballots" to not confuse with the person getting the votes).

what if i want to give my 10 merit vote to someone while giving my 250 vote to someone else?


theymos
Administrator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3542
Merit: 6448


View Profile
January 14, 2019, 01:42:38 AM
 #507

So for example, someone with 518 earned merits would get up to 2 votes in the 250-merit criteria and up to 51 votes in the 10-merit criteria, if I'm getting this right.

Someone with 72 earned merits gets up to 7 votes in the 10-merit criteria and obviously none in the 250.

Right. Also, for these calculations you're not counted as trusting someone if the merit they've given you puts you below the 10- or 250-merit threshold.

The 250-merit thing happens at the very end (after the 10-merit one) when there are only about 50 people in consideration (currently), so 2 votes is not insubstantial there, and you're not that likely to actually be limited.

I assume both can be used in full, i.e. using the 250-votes doesn't reduce the number of available 10-votes (or maybe I should call them "ballots" to not confuse with the person getting the votes).

Right.

1NXYoJ5xU91Jp83XfVMHwwTUyZFK64BoAD
KingZee
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 602
Merit: 424


Check your coin privilege


View Profile
January 14, 2019, 02:12:44 AM
 #508

I wasn't able to find either an optimal or low-error-approximate solution to this problem. My current algorithm is sub-optimal in general and could produce results uncomfortably far from the optimal solution, but the current data doesn't actually present a scenario where it matters: my current algorithm is optimal with the current data. Long-term, if I can't find an algorithm that I'm happy with, I could make the trust lists ordered as some have suggested.

I might help out and spend a day thinking about it but the explanation from the graph is a bit confusing.

Can you dumb it down even further? Just a short description of what are the inputs exactly, and how do you want the output. Better if it's just an example with 5 users or something.

burakike
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 8
Merit: 0


View Profile
January 14, 2019, 03:16:32 AM
 #509

This is the only place where extortionist are being praised by people.Lauda has done shady things in the past why is she still given a good position here? Theymos you should exclude this people or else more and more people will quit at bitcointalk you know the gang here very well,who abuses trust system.I dont know if you are still listening to the users or you are just catching the big fishes all at once like in mind games.
petestheman
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 406
Merit: 255


BINGO! BOUNTY MANAGEMENT


View Profile WWW
January 14, 2019, 03:31:34 AM
 #510

I'm going to reconstruct DT1 again using the published criteria on Monday, so set up your trust lists before then.
Trust list will reset today as per the criteria and we could see a lot of changes in the trust scores and DT1 today. Hoping for a better change this time.

BINGO! BOUNTIES : BOUNTY AND COMMUNITY MANAGERS

FINDING CRYPTO PROJECTS WHICH CAN MAKE THIS WORLD A BETTER PLACE TO LIVE IN.
suchmoon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2100
Merit: 4128


Pedal-powered plaguebot


View Profile
January 14, 2019, 03:32:08 AM
Merited by Foxpup (2)
 #511

This is the only place where extortionist are being praised by people.Lauda has done shady things in the past why is she still given a good position here? Theymos you should exclude this people or else more and more people will quit at bitcointalk you know the gang here very well,who abuses trust system.I dont know if you are still listening to the users or you are just catching the big fishes all at once like in mind games.

Theymos has already explicitly stated that he's more or less neutral towards Lauda so I assume this means there will be no blacklisting. With the new DT system your only chance is to exclude Lauda from your trust list. I mean with your real account. This newbie one won't affect anything.

DabLjat
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 186
Merit: 53


View Profile
January 14, 2019, 05:06:11 AM
 #512

Each user's number of "votes" in the last two criteria will be limited to floor(earned_merit / (10 or 250, depending on the criteria)).

So for example, someone with 518 earned merits could cast up to 2 votes in the 250-merit criteria and up to 51 votes in the 10-merit criteria, if I'm getting this right.

Someone with 72 earned merits could cast up to 7 votes in the 10-merit criteria and obviously none in the 250.

If I have 20 earned Merit do I vote for only 2 people? And these 2 people will be chosen from my list of 20 people? For example, the first in my list are satoshi and theymos (to determine the order of users in the list I can not). Then they get one vote for 10 Merit and the rest get nothing? Am I right?

actmyname
Copper Member
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1540
Merit: 1786


Exchange Bitcoin quicky--https://blockchain.com.do


View Profile WWW
January 14, 2019, 05:21:36 AM
 #513

If I have 20 earned Merit do I vote for only 2 people? And these 2 people will be chosen from my list of 20 people? For example, the first in my list are satoshi and theymos (to determine the order of users in the list I can not). Then they get one vote for 10 Merit and the rest get nothing? Am I right?
Whoever needs your vote the most gets it. It depends on who is on your list, not the order of their placements.

DabLjat
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 186
Merit: 53


View Profile
January 14, 2019, 05:32:45 AM
 #514

Whoever needs your vote the most gets it. It depends on who is on your list, not the order of their placements.

I.e. I can't determine who needs my 2 votes? And also I don't know who got my 2 votes in the end?

suchmoon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2100
Merit: 4128


Pedal-powered plaguebot


View Profile
January 14, 2019, 05:41:45 AM
 #515

Whoever needs your vote the most gets it. It depends on who is on your list, not the order of their placements.

I.e. I can't determine who needs my 2 votes? And also I don't know who got my 2 votes in the end?

Correct. The idea is that you shouldn't be worrying about that. Include people whose judgement you trust. The vote should reflect trust relationships and not be manipulated directly. I kinda wanted the same thing (fine-grained control of voting) earlier in the thread but now I'm thinking that's not that important. We'll see how it works in the next round.

DabLjat
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 186
Merit: 53


View Profile
January 14, 2019, 05:53:53 AM
 #516

Correct. The idea is that you shouldn't be worrying about that. Include people whose judgement you trust. The vote should reflect trust relationships and not be manipulated directly. I kinda wanted the same thing (fine-grained control of voting) earlier in the thread but now I'm thinking that's not that important. We'll see how it works in the next round.

And will not such a system lead to a reduction of trust lists to 2-3 people, for whom (and only for whom) I would like to vote at some stage?

S_Therapist
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 280
Merit: 271



View Profile
January 14, 2019, 05:55:57 AM
 #517

Whoever needs your vote the most gets it. It depends on who is on your list, not the order of their placements.

I.e. I can't determine who needs my 2 votes? And also I don't know who got my 2 votes in the end?

Correct. The idea is that you shouldn't be worrying about that. Include people whose judgement you trust. The vote should reflect trust relationships and not be manipulated directly. I kinda wanted the same thing (fine-grained control of voting) earlier in the thread but now I'm thinking that's not that important. We'll see how it works in the next round.
I have 214 earned merits. Let's assume I have included 30 persons in my trust list. How will system choose my vote, I mean by which criteria, since I have capability of voting for 21 member. How someone from my 30 members will be excluded/included?
OgNasty
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3066
Merit: 1726


I 💚 Bitcoin


View Profile
January 14, 2019, 05:59:54 AM
 #518

I have 214 earned merits. Let's assume I have included 30 persons in my trust list. How will system choose my vote, I mean by which criteria, since I have capability of voting for 21 member. How someone from my 30 members will be excluded/included?

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.




When building your trust list, I tend to encourage people not to worry about little details like this, and instead just think about the system in broad strokes. If this results in poor outcomes, then that's a problem on my end.

DabLjat
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 186
Merit: 53


View Profile
January 14, 2019, 06:01:57 AM
 #519

For example, someone wants his voice exactly got User10 and User11. It removes all participants from its trust list (from User1 to User9) and leaves only User10 and User11.

Trust lists will be reduced to a very narrow circle. Perhaps it would be more correct if the user could specify for whom he 250-votes and 10-votes?

I don't think it's very difficult to implement:
Quote
satoshi
theymos
qwk
Cyrus
xandry
Vadi2323
klarki
10-TheFuzzStone
dariloff
10-poptop
be.open
xenon131
Goran_
Veleor
chimk
temarazin
Alex_Sr
esmanthra
taikuri13
Nikisa

suchmoon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2100
Merit: 4128


Pedal-powered plaguebot


View Profile
January 14, 2019, 06:08:15 AM
 #520

Correct. The idea is that you shouldn't be worrying about that. Include people whose judgement you trust. The vote should reflect trust relationships and not be manipulated directly. I kinda wanted the same thing (fine-grained control of voting) earlier in the thread but now I'm thinking that's not that important. We'll see how it works in the next round.

And will not such a system lead to a reduction of trust lists to 2-3 people, for whom (and only for whom) I would like to vote at some stage?

I don't know if it will. I'm not changing my trust list because of that. Someone with fewer votes might consider that but I think they would be doing themselves a disservice by not including people useful for their day-to-day forum usage (trust ratings etc) and focusing on the vote with a very low chance of putting someone they like into DT1. It's possible that some people will try to change their trust lists temporarily just before theymos recreates DT1. I think all these manipulations will have very little effect in the grand scheme of things but I have no data to support that opinion.

Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 [26] 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 ... 93 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!