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Author Topic: DefaultTrust changes  (Read 50091 times)
Coolcryptovator
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January 14, 2019, 06:45:14 AM
 #521

If I understand the last update of theymos, each 10 earned merit holder can vote 1 person only. So if someone earned 100 merit he can vote 10 person only. If he add more then 10 person then admin/sript will choose the candidate randomly. Seems theymos had edited OP with new updates.

Sound like decentralization, and it's right decision. Now trust system can't be manipulate easily. And DT1 list will perfect now as I believe.

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January 14, 2019, 07:12:44 AM
Last edit: January 14, 2019, 03:02:04 PM by theymos
Merited by suchmoon (7), yogg (1)
 #522

I might help out and spend a day thinking about it but the explanation from the graph is a bit confusing.

Can you dumb it down even further? Just a short description of what are the inputs exactly, and how do you want the output. Better if it's just an example with 5 users or something.

G = (U, V, E) is a bipartite graph with edges from the left side, U, to the right side, V. There are N vertices in U and M vertices in V. A "capacity" function c: U -> Z is defined for every vertex in U. A constant integer "target value" T exists.

Candidate solutions are subgraphs S = (US, VS, ES) of G satisfing the following requirements:
 1. For each vertex u in US, the number of edges attached to u must be less than or equal to c(u).
 2. For each vertex v in VS, the number of edges attached to v must be greater than or equal to T.
 
Find an S such that the number of vertices in VS is maximal.

Example:


Note that this graph is depicted as directed, but that doesn't actually matter.

Note:

 - To satisfy requirement #1, you must exclude at least two of (u1, v1) or (u1, v3) or (u1, v4).
 - To satisfy requirement #1, you must exclude at least one of (u2, v1) or (u2, v2).
 - To satisfy requirement #1, you must exclude at least one of (u3, v1), (u3, v2) or (u3, v3)
 - To satisfy requirement #2, you must exclude at least v4 (since it cannot possibly get T=2 edges), and possibly more depending on the rest of S.

In a very naïve greedy algorithm, you might just fill up vertices on the right from top to bottom until you can't do anything else. That'd give a candidate solution of:
(u1, v1)
(u2, v1)
This is a valid candidate solution, but it's non-optimal because it includes only 1 vertex in V whereas 2 are possible. In order to achieve an optimal solution, you need some backtracking, at least. In this case there are two equally-good optimal solutions:
(u1, v3)
(u3, v3)
(u2, v2)
(u3, v2)
or:
(u1, v1)
(u3, v1)
(u2, v2)
(u3, v2)

It becomes more complicated as the graph gets bigger.

Writing it down in this way reminds me a lot of the stable marriage problem, which gives me hope that it can be solved exactly.

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January 14, 2019, 07:13:05 AM
 #523

If he add more then 10 person then admin/sript will choose the candidate randomly. Seems theymos had edited OP with new updates.
It's not random, imo. If it was random, theymos would not say "whom your vote will be most useful."
Each user's number of "votes" in the last two criteria will be limited to floor(earned_merit / (10 or 250, depending on the criteria)). If you trust more people than your limit, then you will vote for the people to whom your vote will be the most useful, more-or-less.

I think it will be choosen by either the members trust score or whom most of the people have included.
For example, if someone has 20 earned merits and includes 3 member in trust list, system will check among those 3 member who has been included by most others person. Assume, I have 20 earned merit and included A, B, C in my trust list. Anyone from this 3 will be excluded by-
Assume-
A- trusted by 20 members
B- trusted by 11 members
C- trusted by 15 members.
Then my vote will go for A and C, B will be excluded.
Is that correct, can someone confirm?

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January 14, 2019, 07:15:20 AM
 #524

Guys what do I do with the Trust?
I tried to find the truth in the topic, but it is not interesting to anyone ...
Lauda and Tman simply added bad confidence to me, and I think they agreed ... so that there is no one to influence them (
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5096004.new#new

Hello! Any donations that will go to develop coins.
34bwEhH3GMx6swYXt2NBfFbYGkdTcaWtXz....BTC

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January 14, 2019, 07:32:03 AM
Merited by S_Therapist (1)
 #525

I have 214 earned merits. Let's assume I have included 30 persons in my trust list. How will system choose my vote, I mean by which criteria, since I have capability of voting for 21 member. How someone from my 30 members will be excluded/included?

Right now only 1 person in your trust list is eligible at that point in the DT1 generation process (namely Coolcryptovator), so it doesn't matter. In the vast majority of cases, it's like this, where there is no contention at all. If there is contention, then the system tries to distribute the votes such that the greatest number of people would be included in DT1 at the end. If there's still contention (or if my algorithm behaves sub-optimally), then it's chosen randomly among the remaining options. But this is a bit rare: if DT1 was constructed now, no randomness would be involved, since all contention would be resolvable without it.

I think it will be choosen by either the members trust score or whom most of the people have included.
For example, if someone has 20 earned merits and includes 3 member in trust list, system will check among those 3 member who has been included by most others person. Assume, I have 20 earned merit and included A, B, C in my trust list. Anyone from this 3 will be excluded by-
Assume-
A- trusted by 20 members
B- trusted by 11 members
C- trusted by 15 members.
Then my vote will go for A and C, B will be excluded.
Is that correct, can someone confirm?


In that case your vote doesn't matter, since they're all above 10. If it was instead:

A- trusted by 20
B- trusted by 9
C- trusted by 9

Then your votes would go to B and C, since that would result in the greatest number of people in DT1.

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January 14, 2019, 07:36:22 AM
Merited by Foxpup (2), LoyceV (1)
 #526

Here's how the voting would work if it were performed right now. The first one comes after all of the other criteria, and is then fed into the second.
Code:
yxt via:
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tmfp via:
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Halab via:
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asche via:
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mprep via:
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ibminer via:
    theymos
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Hhampuz via:
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dooglus via:
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qwk via:
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Mitchell via:
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gmaxwell via:
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OgNasty via:
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The Pharmacist via:
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Lauda via:
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suchmoon via:
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Vod via:
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hilariousandco via:
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theymos via:
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Code:
SebastianJu via:
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Halab via:
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greenplastic via:
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suchmoon via:
    Last of the V8s
    DdmrDdmr
LoyceV via:
    micgoossens
    DdmrDdmr
theymos via:
    DdmrDdmr
    Last of the V8s

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January 14, 2019, 07:44:21 AM
Merited by OgNasty (1), TMAN (1)
 #527

Here's how the voting would work if it were performed right now. The first one comes after all of the other criteria, and is then fed into the second.
-snip-
Nice work, although I believe that the number of people that will understand the process will drop by over 90%. Cheesy

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January 14, 2019, 07:48:07 AM
 #528

Here's how the voting would work if it were performed right now. The first one comes after all of the other criteria, and is then fed into the second.
-snip-
Nice work, although I believe that the number of people that will understand the process will drop by over 90%. Cheesy

Gotta respect the effort involved.

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January 14, 2019, 08:02:53 AM
Merited by OgNasty (1)
 #529

The trust system is constantly abused for political as well as likely organized criminal purposes. It provides cover for these people to abuse honest contributing members of the forum with impunity. The question is not if they help, it is at what cost? The cost is consistently driving away MANY new users who simply didn't understand the unwritten mob rules enforced here. The thief simply spends a few bucks on a new account and is back in minutes. Legitimate users burned this way don't come back, perpetually putting us in a feedback loop of driving away the decent user base while providing cover for the cons.

Blindly following the trust is a HUGE issue. There is no way to even know if the same person is truly in control of the account any more at the end of the day, and purporting otherwise is disingenuous and only harms the people it was designed to protect most, the newer users. It is at its best little more than a notification system for people to warn others of suspect behavior, and at worst a system of protecting organized crime and mobbing cliques.

"The only people you see complain are mostly the ones that have actually been caught with doing something bad.."

That sounds like something dirty cops say when some one tries to get the cop to follow the law too... the rules are for thee and not for me.

Could you give me a few examples?


There are rules set for this forum, as well as guidelines. If they are not followed and a new member gets negative trust for something that was against that, is it not deserved? I'm not really sure that it affects as many people as you paint it out to be.

I'd also like to request an example of organized crime that is being protected by the current trust system as that sounds like a conspiracy theory at best.

The funny thing is merely giving examples was the only thing it took to start a years long flame war with one of these people resulting in exactly this type of harassment. It doesn't have to be some kind of mafia, but that doesn't mean it isn't. It can be as simple as an organic clique of users actively suppressing those going against their plans, or even publicly questioning them.

Please now, lets not act like people doing shady backhanded things to each other here is an uncommon occurrence. You need to call it a conspiracy theory to try to make my claim look fantastical and unrealistic when it is pretty obvious how it can be abused.

A bad actor gets control of 1 or more highly ranked accounts, does their conning, if anyone tries to point it out they can simply make them look like a scam artist themselves or just mob them and mass report them until they get banned. I have personally experienced it MULTIPLE times, and I KNOW I am not the only one. The problem is if you have no ratings well you are just a scammer, and if you do have good ratings, well now you have something they can leverage against you.

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January 14, 2019, 08:05:15 AM
 #530

Here's how the voting would work if it were performed right now. The first one comes after all of the other criteria, and is then fed into the second.
-snip-
Nice work, although I believe that the number of people that will understand the process will drop by over 90%. Cheesy
There will be someone who will make it easy and force people to get it within minutes  Cheesy

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January 14, 2019, 08:39:05 AM
 #531

Here's how the voting would work if it were performed right now. The first one comes after all of the other criteria, and is then fed into the second.
For example I have got 10 vote from 10 earned merit holder. One of them is Theb, if he/she exclude me from trust list the will I remove from DT1 ? Or it will fiiled by other vote I got. Because here is limited only 10 as we can see. We can't see how many total vote we got. If not fill from others vote (if I have) then it will be very easy to remove someone from DT1.

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January 14, 2019, 10:40:50 AM
 #532

Just a thought:
~ votes ~
I encourage people to give merit to posts that are objectively high-quality, not just posts that you agree with.
Making votes depend on earned Merit can increase the chance of users not meriting a good post from someone they don't agree with, to keep them from having voting powers.

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January 14, 2019, 10:54:31 AM
 #533

Nice work, although I believe that the number of people that will understand the process will drop by over 90%. Cheesy

I confirm.

What the hell is going on? Previous system was ok to understand but here...
Though it's not a bad thing because it means only people actually caring about DT will take the time to understand it.

If I understood correctly though the idea would be to flat out votes in order to get the biggest possible DT1?
Shouldn't be the other way around? Especially as the merit sources mean merit will only increase, DT1 will also only increase. Ultimate state in theory would be everyone in DT with this system.

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January 14, 2019, 11:02:44 AM
 #534

Gotta respect the effort involved.
Word.  The mathematics makes my eyes twitch, but I'll trust that Theymos is doing his best and that the math-oriented folks on the forum know what he's doing.  I'll have to wait for the dumbed-down version thread where someone explains it with a picture (lol) that's on the level of a McDonald's menu for people who can't read.

Props to you, Theymos.  You've obviously put a lot of thought into this and I respect that greatly.

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January 14, 2019, 11:30:18 AM
Merited by DdmrDdmr (1)
 #535

- You must have at least 2 people directly trusting you with an earned merit of at least 250, not including merit you yourself sent. These "votes" are limited.

since this part it's quite significant, this is a list of the people which can "vote" and the number of votes they have at their disposal at the moment (144 users):

Code:
13 theymos
6 LoyceV
6 satoshi
5 DdmrDdmr
5 The Pharmacist
5 hilariousetc
5 micgoossens
5 suchmoon
4 Last of the V8s
3 Jet Cash
3 Lutpin
3 Piggy
3 Vod
3 achow101
3 gmaxwell
3 nullius
3 o_e_l_e_o
3 xhomerx10
3 xtraelv
2 BobLawblaw
2 HCP
2 HairyMaclairy
2 Hhampuz
2 JayJuanGee
2 Lauda
2 OgNasty
2 TMAN
2 abhiseshakana
2 bitmover
2 bob123
2 coinlocket$
2 iasenko
2 infofront
2 jojo69
2 joniboini
2 krogothmanhattan
2 marlboroza
2 mole0815
2 qwk
2 theyoungmillionaire
1 1Referee
1 1miau
1 ATMcoin
1 Ajpa94
1 Alex_Sr
1 AlyattesLydia
1 BTCforJoe
1 BitCryptex
1 Carlton Banks
1 Claymore
1 Coding Enthusiast
1 Coolcryptovator
1 DannyHamilton
1 DarkStar_
1 ETFbitcoin
1 Elwar
1 Flying Hellfish
1 Foxpup
1 GameKyuubi
1 Goran_
1 HagssFIN
1 Hal
1 HeRetiK
1 Husna QA
1 ICOEthics
1 LFC_Bitcoin
1 Lafu
1 LeGaulois
1 Limx Dev
1 Matthias9515
1 PHI1618
1 QuestionAuthority
1 RichDaniel
1 RuSS512
1 SaltySpitoon
1 Smart man
1 Steamtyme
1 TheQuin
1 Torque
1 Toxic2040
1 TryNinja
1 Tukang Becak
1 Welsh
1 Xal0lex
1 Xynerise
1 actmyname
1 alex bond
1 arulbero
1 asche
1 athanz88
1 bill gator
1 bitserve
1 bones261
1 buwaytress
1 by rallier
1 d5000
1 d_eddie
1 deeperx
1 eddie13
1 esmanthra
1 explorder
1 fine99
1 franky1
1 gawlea
1 gentlemand
1 hilariousandco
1 hugeblack
1 ibminer
1 identifyuser
1 kenzawak
1 kirreev070
1 mdayonliner
1 mfort312
1 minerjones
1 mithrim
1 mocacinno
1 morvillz7z
1 mprep
1 mstfprcn
1 mu_enrico
1 nullCoiner
1 pandukelana2712
1 paxmao
1 philipma1957
1 pitipawn
1 pooya87
1 poptop
1 pugman
1 romanornr
1 roycilik
1 sabotag3x
1 saulzaents
1 seoincorporation
1 shorena
1 sidehack
1 sncc
1 stompix
1 taikuri13
1 tonych
1 vit05
1 vlad230
1 yahoo62278
1 zazarb
1 zentdex
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January 14, 2019, 11:42:10 AM
 #536

Code:
~snip list~
At least 6 users are banned:
Code:
979216: RuSS512
925926: gawlea
227450: identifyuser
915311: mstfprcn
944905: saulzaents
1331637: zentdex
Some of them are still included, only one still includes another user:
Code:
mstfprcn->Kubra Dam

@theymos: should the custom trust list of a banned user be deleted? If I understand correctly, their existing inclusions still count towards voting.

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January 14, 2019, 12:11:43 PM
 #537

- You must have at least 2 people directly trusting you with an earned merit of at least 250, not including merit you yourself sent. These "votes" are limited.

since this part it's quite significant, this is a list of the people which can "vote" and the number of votes they have at their disposal at the moment (144 users):

Code:
13 theymos
6 LoyceV
6 satoshi
5 DdmrDdmr
5 The Pharmacist
5 hilariousetc
5 micgoossens
5 suchmoon
4 Last of the V8s
3 Jet Cash
3 Lutpin
3 Piggy
3 Vod
3 achow101
3 gmaxwell
3 nullius
3 o_e_l_e_o
3 xhomerx10
3 xtraelv
2 BobLawblaw
2 HCP
2 HairyMaclairy
2 Hhampuz
2 JayJuanGee
2 Lauda
2 OgNasty
2 TMAN
2 abhiseshakana
2 bitmover
2 bob123
2 coinlocket$
2 iasenko
2 infofront
2 jojo69
2 joniboini
2 krogothmanhattan
2 marlboroza
2 mole0815
2 qwk
2 theyoungmillionaire
1 1Referee
1 1miau
1 ATMcoin
1 Ajpa94
1 Alex_Sr
1 AlyattesLydia
1 BTCforJoe
1 BitCryptex
1 Carlton Banks
1 Claymore
1 Coding Enthusiast
1 Coolcryptovator
1 DannyHamilton
1 DarkStar_
1 ETFbitcoin
1 Elwar
1 Flying Hellfish
1 Foxpup
1 GameKyuubi
1 Goran_
1 HagssFIN
1 Hal
1 HeRetiK
1 Husna QA
1 ICOEthics
1 LFC_Bitcoin
1 Lafu
1 LeGaulois
1 Limx Dev
1 Matthias9515
1 PHI1618
1 QuestionAuthority
1 RichDaniel
1 RuSS512
1 SaltySpitoon
1 Smart man
1 Steamtyme
1 TheQuin
1 Torque
1 Toxic2040
1 TryNinja
1 Tukang Becak
1 Welsh
1 Xal0lex
1 Xynerise
1 actmyname
1 alex bond
1 arulbero
1 asche
1 athanz88
1 bill gator
1 bitserve
1 bones261
1 buwaytress
1 by rallier
1 d5000
1 d_eddie
1 deeperx
1 eddie13
1 esmanthra
1 explorder
1 fine99
1 franky1
1 gawlea
1 gentlemand
1 hilariousandco
1 hugeblack
1 ibminer
1 identifyuser
1 kenzawak
1 kirreev070
1 mdayonliner
1 mfort312
1 minerjones
1 mithrim
1 mocacinno
1 morvillz7z
1 mprep
1 mstfprcn
1 mu_enrico
1 nullCoiner
1 pandukelana2712
1 paxmao
1 philipma1957
1 pitipawn
1 pooya87
1 poptop
1 pugman
1 romanornr
1 roycilik
1 sabotag3x
1 saulzaents
1 seoincorporation
1 shorena
1 sidehack
1 sncc
1 stompix
1 taikuri13
1 tonych
1 vit05
1 vlad230
1 yahoo62278
1 zazarb
1 zentdex

And where the user chimk?

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January 14, 2019, 12:13:41 PM
 #538

And where the user chimk?
His 100 airdropped Merit doesn't count as "earned".

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January 14, 2019, 12:14:20 PM
 #539

-snip-
As of this morning, I now get 4 votes. Tongue

@theymos: should the custom trust list of a banned user be deleted? If I understand correctly, their existing inclusions still count towards voting.
I think that would be sensible, not just as a punishment for being banned, but also so we don't see an ever increasing number of abandoned accounts with static trust lists. If a well trusted member goes rogue, we could be in a situation where we are permanently relying on other DT1 exclusions to keep them off DT1 thanks to unmaintained trust lists.

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January 14, 2019, 12:21:20 PM
 #540

And where the user chimk?
His 100 airdropped Merit doesn't count as "earned".

Yes, true, and where the user Veleor?

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