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Author Topic: DefaultTrust changes  (Read 56158 times)
marlboroza
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September 04, 2019, 04:26:03 PM
Last edit: September 04, 2019, 05:08:31 PM by marlboroza
 #1801

No, this is me ranting about someone adding plagiarist and content thief to default trust. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is second time this user ended up in DT and again person who caught goraset stealing their work and trying to pass it as their own for monetary gain ended up with negative trust https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2050090.0.
This may or may not be true and this could be a valid and correct objection.
If you only have spent time to read thread instead writing wall of text which I stopped reading exactly here you would have seen what I am talking about.


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The Pharmacist
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September 04, 2019, 04:45:51 PM
 #1802

We and our friends will be keeping on topic and relevant whilst bringing them to light at every instance.
Oh FFS, you don't have friends; you have a bunch of alt accounts which everyone knows about, and nobody of importance has been listening to any of their rants since you began this crap months ago.  You can keep wasting your energy if you like, but don't think you're convincing anyone about anything.

If you only have spent time to read thread instead writing wall of text which I stopped reading exactly here you would have seen what I am talking about.
True, but don't tell me you expect anything more from TOAA.  It's nonstop keyboard diarrhea, just like the flow from cryptohunter.  Not surprising.

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September 05, 2019, 04:02:02 AM
 #1803

So what is the verdict on this new DT1 system? I looked through the current DT1 members and I am lost on how some of these guys are DT1. I am not complaining as I opted out of it and all, but am really curious if people feel things are better/worse/same etc...
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September 05, 2019, 05:22:43 AM
 #1804

So what is the verdict on this new DT1 system? I looked through the current DT1 members and I am lost on how some of these guys are DT1. I am not complaining as I opted out of it and all, but am really curious if people feel things are better/worse/same etc...

I think it's a joke. I share Theymos' opinion that the old system needed an overhaul but we've seen plenty of merit cycling and vote manipulation to get people into DT. At this point I think it would be better to completely remove DT.

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September 05, 2019, 05:39:52 AM
 #1805

So what is the verdict on this new DT1 system? I looked through the current DT1 members and I am lost on how some of these guys are DT1. I am not complaining as I opted out of it and all, but am really curious if people feel things are better/worse/same etc...

You'll fit in quite nicely...  Roll Eyes



I think it's a joke. I share Theymos' opinion that the old system needed an overhaul but we've seen plenty of merit cycling and vote manipulation to get people into DT. At this point I think it would be better to completely remove DT.

Says the guy who slapped me with retaliatory distrust after I gave a user merit when they called out TheNewAnon135246's racist posts...

Ironic - really.

@The Pharmacist @LoyceV @suchmoon @foxpup

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September 05, 2019, 06:36:39 AM
Merited by Foxpup (4), suchmoon (4), bones261 (2), Timelord2067 (1), Veleor (1), o_e_l_e_o (1), pandukelana2712 (1), taikuri13 (1), DireWolfM14 (1)
 #1806

So what is the verdict on this new DT1 system? I looked through the current DT1 members and I am lost on how some of these guys are DT1. I am not complaining as I opted out of it and all, but am really curious if people feel things are better/worse/same etc...
There's definitely more drama, and it involves more people now. Theymos wanted less retaliation, but I think it got worse. There's now DT-representation on local boards (which is good), but it often clashes when it reaches outside the local board. We've seen drama with "the Russians", and more recently "the Turkish": This thread was created yesterday, including an incorrect Flag. It's Opposed by people from many different countries, but Supported by 7 people from the same local board. I don't think people who use Flags for personal (hurt) feelings should be on DT.
I've seen good people voluntarily leave DT1, because they're done with the drama. In my opinion, those are the people who should stay, in order to help reduce the drama.
Even now, many people, including some on DT1, don't seem to know the difference between the Trust list and sent Feedback. It doesn't help that the forum uses the word "Trust" for both. That leads to Trust Selfscratchers: DT1-members who include (almost) every user who ever left them positive feedback on their Trust list. The #1 (not on DT1 this month) is Staff member Dabs, who's still included by theymos.

I've posted a few suggestions before, it won't fix everything, but I think it would make DT better if:
1. Each DT2-member needs at least 2 inclusions from DT1 (this would cut the number of DT2-members in half and make "Selfscratching" impossible without collusion)
2. Each DT2-member must have been active and posting in the past 6 months (this gets rid of abandoned accounts on DT2)
3. Getting banned should instantly remove a user from DT1/2, and their DT1-voting-power should be removed.

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September 05, 2019, 06:40:01 AM
 #1807

So what is the verdict on this new DT1 system? I looked through the current DT1 members and I am lost on how some of these guys are DT1. I am not complaining as I opted out of it and all, but am really curious if people feel things are better/worse/same etc...

You'll fit in quite nicely...  Roll Eyes



I think it's a joke. I share Theymos' opinion that the old system needed an overhaul but we've seen plenty of merit cycling and vote manipulation to get people into DT. At this point I think it would be better to completely remove DT.

Says the guy who slapped me with retaliatory distrust after I gave a user merit when they called out TheNewAnon135246's racist posts...

Ironic - really.

@The Pharmacist @LoyceV @suchmoon @foxpup

I distrusted you for rewarding the cancerous behaviour of an obvious alt account (amongst other reasons). That is completely different from organizing voting random people into DT.

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September 05, 2019, 08:03:11 AM
 #1808

I distrusted you for rewarding the cancerous behaviour of an obvious alt account (amongst other reasons). That is completely different from organizing voting random people into DT.

You *were* bigoted in your posts and you were called out by the UID you were attacking.

But you attacked/punished *me* instead?  Would you expect that kind of behaviour of others, or, just yourself?

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TheNewAnon135246
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September 05, 2019, 08:40:48 AM
 #1809

I distrusted you for rewarding the cancerous behaviour of an obvious alt account (amongst other reasons). That is completely different from organizing voting random people into DT.

You *were* bigoted in your posts and you were called out by the UID you were attacking.

But you attacked/punished *me* instead?  Would you expect that kind of behaviour of others, or, just yourself?

I do not want to derail this topic so feel free to PM me if you want a further discussion. I replied to Xolxol's following post, and I quote: "Lauda might passed away hopefully,rest unpeacefully." Although my reply may have been unnecessary, his kind of behaviour provokes reactions. Xolxol is obviously an alt account and in pretty much every of his posts he insults and/or threatens people (including hoping that people die etc.). Apparently my 1 comment outweighs the continuous cancerous behaviour he has been displaying, resulting in merit rewards.

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September 05, 2019, 08:51:56 AM
 #1810

...

That leads to Trust Selfscratchers: DT1-members who include (almost) every user who ever left them positive feedback on their Trust list. The #1 (not on DT1 this month) is Staff member Dabs, who's still included by theymos.

Back on topic...

Loyce, your self scratcher list you cite http://loyce.club/trust/selfscratchers/ is now 15 weeks out of date.

Off topic again, have you noticed your merits and my post count have been neck-and-neck for weeks now?  Grin



Apparently my 1 comment outweighs the continuous cancerous behaviour he has been displaying, resulting in merit rewards.

The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many Spock?

I've just finished telling Yoshi that he needs to rise above it all now that he's on DT2.  May I suggest you go back through my merit list - I think you'll be surprised who and for what I've given merits for in the past.

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September 05, 2019, 09:43:13 AM
Last edit: September 06, 2019, 03:37:45 AM by lighpulsar07
Merited by JayJuanGee (1), LoyceV (1)
 #1811

2. Each DT2-member must have been active and posting in the past 6 months (this gets rid of abandoned accounts on DT2)

Well i don't think this is a good idea since some of inactive DT 2 members like diamondcardz (inactive) and Zepher (RIP) (not just them) neg rated scammers and trolls months or years ago. if they removed from the DT network, their feedbacks on those scammers will be invalidated since they aren't in the trust network anymore. it will be a mess and a lot of work for other DT members to retagged all of the users who were tagged by DT users who were gone in this forum months or years ago.

 
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September 05, 2019, 09:51:13 AM
 #1812

2. Each DT2-member must have been active and posting in the past 6 months (this gets rid of abandoned accounts on DT2)

Well i don't think this is a good idea since some of inactive DT 2 members like diamondcardz (inactive since 2015) and Zepher (RIP) (not just them) neg rated scammers and trolls months or years ago. if they removed from the DT network, their feedbacks on those scammers will be invalidated since they aren't in the trust network anymore. it will be a mess and a lot of work for other DT members to retagged all of the users who were tagged by DT users who were gone in this forum months or years ago.

True, but if the users who voted them in one and all become inactive - what then? Make exceptions based on who gave the most Red Paint ™

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September 05, 2019, 11:05:14 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #1813

if they removed from the DT network, their feedbacks on those scammers will be invalidated since they aren't in the trust network anymore. it will be a mess and a lot of work for other DT members to retagged all of the users who were tagged by DT users who were gone in this forum months or years ago.

But conversely, it also means that the tags are permanent and even if a user proves themselves trustworthiness again, or their earlier accusation is dropped the tag would still remain as the DT members are no longer active. This also works in cases of users they positively trusted who prove not to be trustworthy.
Trustworthiness is not static and should be changing as circumstances do.

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September 05, 2019, 09:55:47 PM
 #1814


There's definitely more drama, and it involves more people now. Theymos wanted less retaliation, but I think it got worse. There's now DT-representation on local boards (which is good), but it often clashes when it reaches outside the local board. We've seen drama with "the Russians", and more recently "the Turkish": This thread was created yesterday, including an incorrect Flag. It's Opposed by people from many different countries, but Supported by 7 people from the same local board.

You are aware that suchmoon just put about 7 people on negative trust for supporting a flag against Timelord because s/he believes the flag was opened incorrectly, so s/he proceeded to threaten people to remove their support from the flag or otherwise remain neg. trusted indefinitely...

Do you really believe that's an untrustworthy offense, or is that a manipulative power play ?.. We now know you and suchmoon want to consolidate all decision making in the forum in the hands of your friends, what do other forum members think ?

what does theymos think ? I'm really just asking out of curiosity.

Can there be a worse case of retaliation and trust system abuse than putting people on negative trust for defending themselves, and then blackmailing them ?

This is arguably worse than the case of Timelord2067 because suchmoon is far smarter than Timelord2067 and is close friends with tens of DT1 members who would find it very hard to go against their friend, no matter how irrational and unfair her actions may be...

 
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September 05, 2019, 10:19:21 PM
 #1815

You are aware that suchmoon just put about 7 people on negative trust for supporting a flag against Timelord because s/he believes the flag was opened incorrectly, so s/he proceeded to threaten people to remove their support from the flag or otherwise remain neg. trusted indefinitely...

I don't think I neg-trusted anyone, just excluded you all from my trust list. It's a logical step considering that the flag is bullshit, I oppose it, and I don't trust the judgement of users who support it for reasons incompatible with the flag system (i.e. opinions vs facts).

Can there be a worse case of retaliation and trust system abuse than putting people on negative trust for defending themselves, and then blackmailing them ?

What am I retaliating for? The flag is not against me. I'm excluding Timelord as well and I'm opposing his flag too. Whom am I blackmailing? There is no secret information to reveal.

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September 05, 2019, 10:34:36 PM
 #1816


I don't think I neg-trusted anyone, just excluded you all from my trust list. It's a logical step considering that the flag is bullshit, I oppose it, and I don't trust the judgement of users who support it for reasons incompatible with the flag system (i.e. opinions vs facts).

Let's be completely honest, we are talking about flag type 1 against "high risk" people, not contractual violations or scams; therefore it's not a case of opinion vs fact, but really subjective opinion vs subjective opinion,

if the global community's majority opinion outweighs ours that timelord is not a high risk candidate, then the flag will be inactive, and system is working as intended, no need for you to interfere aggressively, unless you want your opinion dictated as the authoritative "fact"

which brings us to your other point:

What am I retaliating for? The flag is not against me. I'm excluding Timelord as well and I'm opposing his flag too. Whom am I blackmailing? There is no secret information to reveal.

you are retaliating against losing your oligarchic authority in the trust system. You don't want strangers that you are not comfortable with having any power in the forum, you want to consolidate it amongst a few friends of yours with whom you share the same subjective life views and value systems apparently.

So you play these power games, abusing the little authority given to you by theymos' legal experiments to manipulate the innocent and not so experienced local forum participants... Not ethical at all suchmoon, but who is going to stop you, this is not a courtroom, and your friends are not incentivized enough to break their camaraderie with you over minor moral details, even though all of the intellectual ones would probably secretly agree with everything I've just said.

All the Best

 
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September 05, 2019, 11:07:39 PM
 #1817

you are retaliating against losing your oligarchic authority in the trust system. You don't want strangers that you are not comfortable with having any power in the forum, you want to consolidate it amongst a few friends of yours with whom you share the same subjective life views and value systems apparently.

I'm going to hate myself for poking the beehive at 1 am after 3 refreshments but...isn't the trust system exactly about this?

Why the hell would somebody choose to trust the opinions and views of a stranger with whom he doesn't agree?
Isn't it normal to add to your trust list people who have the same views as you on the majority of cases?
Lauda adding QS and Tman OgNasty, that should be fun...
Seriously, you speak of courtrooms but this is like the prosecution accusing the defendant of lying but saying they trust every word they say.

Of course, I'm expecting to be labeled as a suchmoon lackey for this since I have him or her on my trust list.


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September 05, 2019, 11:37:11 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #1818

Let's be completely honest, we are talking about flag type 1 against "high risk" people, not contractual violations or scams; therefore it's not a case of opinion vs fact, but really subjective opinion vs subjective opinion,

If we're being honest, here's what it says on the flag itself (emphasis mine):

Quote
Vispilio alleges: Due largely to the factors mentioned in this topic, I believe that anyone dealing with Timelord2067 is at a high risk of losing money, and guests would be well-advised to avoid doing so. This determination is based on concrete red flags which any knowledgeable & reasonable forum user should agree with, and it is not based on the user's opinions.

So when you (and others) keep repeating that the flag is based on opinions I must conclude that you either don't know how it's supposed to work or deliberately ignore it, both good reasons to exclude you. Your thread does not show any indication of Timelord2067 posing a high risk of losing money, instead it is full of hyperbole and hurt feelings. Not a good fit with the trust system.

you are retaliating against losing your oligarchic authority in the trust system. You don't want strangers that you are not comfortable with having any power in the forum, you want to consolidate it amongst a few friends of yours with whom you share the same subjective life views and value systems apparently.

So you play these power games, abusing the little authority given to you by theymos' legal experiments to manipulate the innocent and not so experienced local forum participants... Not ethical at all suchmoon, but who is going to stop you, this is not a courtroom, and your friends are not incentivized enough to break their camaraderie with you over minor moral details, even though all of the intellectual ones would probably secretly agree with everything I've just said.

DT1 is capped at 100 and my exclusions have no influence over the candidate pool. I have the same chance to drop out of DT1 next month as any other candidate regardless of how many of those imaginary "friends" I have and said "friends" are not rushing to parrot my exclusions either. So this conspiracy theory doesn't make sense.

I have stopped caring about the DT impact of my decisions. I'm managing my trust list based solely on how I personally want to see trust ratings and flags, and I expect others to do the same with regards to me.

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September 05, 2019, 11:52:05 PM
 #1819

DT1 is capped at 100 and my exclusions have no influence over the candidate pool. I have the same chance to drop out of DT1 next month as any other candidate regardless of how many of those imaginary "friends" I have and said "friends" are not rushing to parrot my exclusions either. So this conspiracy theory doesn't make sense.

I have stopped caring about the DT impact of my decisions. I'm managing my trust list based solely on how I personally want to see trust ratings and flags, and I expect others to do the same with regards to me.



Yes. Same here at this point. I have not the time for such BS anymore either.... Great points there SM. Wink

Cheers,
Owl
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September 06, 2019, 12:50:34 AM
Last edit: September 06, 2019, 01:33:11 AM by Vispilio
 #1820


If we're being honest, here's what it says on the flag itself (emphasis mine):

Quote
Vispilio alleges: Due largely to the factors mentioned in this topic, I believe that anyone dealing with Timelord2067 is at a high risk of losing money, and guests would be well-advised to avoid doing so. This determination is based on concrete red flags which any knowledgeable & reasonable forum user should agree with, and it is not based on the user's opinions.

So when you (and others) keep repeating that the flag is based on opinions I must conclude that you either don't know how it's supposed to work or deliberately ignore it, both good reasons to exclude you. Your thread does not show any indication of Timelord2067 posing a high risk of losing money, instead it is full of hyperbole and hurt feelings. Not a good fit with the trust system.


well ok just to respond to this objection without going too much off topic, since LoyceV also had the exact same reasoning as yours:

The determination of why the flag was prompted in the first place rests on objective reality indeed (called concrete red flags, which in itself is a vague statement but anyways), my dramatic wording of it shouldn't cloud the easily provable reality that there is a repeating pattern of obsessive false accusations against the Turkish section by this amateur detective of the forum called timelord.

The "high risk" individual flag against him which then follows, as you correctly quoted, begins with "I believe" which has to make it a personal, subjective statement, a very strong one, yet subjective nevertheless.

If the flag had to contain scientific proof that Timelord2067 was a scammer, eg a definitive case where he actually swindled people, that would immediately qualify it as the stronger contractual / scammer flag. Otherwise, there would be effectively no difference between the two flag types...

So in summary you can put people to your distrust list for whatever notion you feel is appropriate, but the BTT community should know that some of your latest reasons for doing so are pretty weak suchmoon, which in Turkish legal jargon would be roughly translated as "Against the natural flow of life" often used to signify ulterior motives... Wink

 
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