[ANN] Spondoolies-Tech - carrier grade, data center ready mining rigs

[Finksy]

...
And as mining gear becomes cheaper to manufacture and operate, bitcoin prices will continue to fall.
...

Care to explain ?

If the price of bitcoin trends towards the cost of producing it, and the cost of producing it decreases, then the price of bitcoin decreases

If the price of hardware drops, more is purchased equally by everyone, difficulty increases, and everything stays in equilibrium in an ideal market.  You can not alter the supply of Bitcoin (in regards to mining), only re-distribute it based on marketshare of hash power.

The only way for the price of bitcoin to trend towards the cost of producing it would be if hardware reached peak efficiency (no new technology for over a year at a time), mining hardware would become an asset instead of a liability, and the cost to produce would strictly be electricity.  We may never see this, although I see us getting closer with every generation.

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[Zelek Uther]

...
And as mining gear becomes cheaper to manufacture and operate, bitcoin prices will continue to fall.
...

Care to explain ?

If the price of bitcoin trends towards the cost of producing it, and the cost of producing it decreases, then the price of bitcoin decreases

I think the price of bitcoin is determined by the market, not by the cost of producing it.

When bitcoin hit $1200 it wasn't because the cost of producing it increased, it was market forces.

The cost of producing bitcoin is raised or lowered to meet the market price, not the other way around. If bitcoin goes up to $1000, miners will see a profit incentive and more rigs will come online... driving up the mining difficulty and hence the cost of producing each bitcoin. If bitcoin goes down, some miners will switch off unprofitable rigs, reducing the cost of producing bitcoin (for the remaining miners). Mining expands or contracts to maintain an equilibrium where the profit from mining is marginal, whatever the market price is.

Miners are reacting to the market price, not the other way around. Very few people buying bitcoin would perform a calculation to see how much it would cost to mine bitcoin (i.e. what the production cost is), instead they look at the current market price.

[philipma1957]

...
And as mining gear becomes cheaper to manufacture and operate, bitcoin prices will continue to fall.
...

Care to explain ?

If the price of bitcoin trends towards the cost of producing it, and the cost of producing it decreases, then the price of bitcoin decreases

I think the price of bitcoin is determined by the market, not by the cost of producing it.

When bitcoin hit $1200 it wasn't because the cost of producing it increased, it was market forces.

The cost of producing bitcoin is raised or lowered to meet the market price, not the other way around. If bitcoin goes up to $1000, miners will see a profit incentive and more rigs will come online... driving up the mining difficulty and hence the cost of producing each bitcoin. If bitcoin goes down, some miners will switch off unprofitable rigs, reducing the cost of producing bitcoin (for the remaining miners). Mining expands or contracts to maintain an equilibrium where the profit from mining is marginal, whatever the market price is.

Miners are reacting to the market price, not the other way around. Very few people buying bitcoin would perform a calculation to see how much it would cost to mine bitcoin (i.e. what the production cost is), instead they look at the current market price.

perception of value  vs price.

   Diamonds   are perceived as valuable .  People pay the money for them.

BTC has a  perceived value  people pay  to get it.

Here is 1 example of why BTC can go up in price.

    If I were in a country that I was going to leave in a hurry.
 I would value BTC a lot more  as I do not need to carry it out with me. I can leave the country with just the clothes on my back.

[klondike_bar]

Just try both and same

Are you using one PSU or two to power the SP20?

Try moving the pcie cables to alternate sockets and see if the loop that is off changes.

Just check that, is one psu and is ok. No melted pci-e... its miner issue.

I read some back in thread for same issue and changing ribbon cable for both hashing board solve or show if problem is there, but il wait for SP tech answer before attempt open miner.

I try to get answer from their support on skype


Update:
Few restarts later and gentle  shaking and we are back 1.6Th
From my opinion this must be bad ribbon cable or bad solder on some connector.
Advice from SP tech still will be appreciated.

I had one where the serial cable (ribbon cable) had one wire that didnt get 'bitten' correctly by the teeth in the plastic connector piece. took 15 minutes to pry the connector open, see the problem, and fix it.

granted - i dont care much for warranties and was confident that my opening up the unit and carefully inspecting the boards, seating, and cables wouldn't cause damage.
try opening it up and switching the serial cbales. if the problem moves to loop 2 the cable is the issue. if the issue dissapears it was a seating problem. if the issue stays in loop 0 you're out of luck unless SPT can help

[chentron]

just received my first SP20 and install it.
... my petition to tech service...
- change version firmware history
- guide "howto" for advanced overclocking (something like what values to modify)
- which is newer firmware 2.6.14 or 2.6.7 ?   how beta are the test versions ?
- a guide to explain what the principal error can happen and what can mean the messages

thanks

[takagari]

just received my first SP20 and install it.
... my petition to tech service...
- change version firmware history
- guide "howto" for advanced overclocking (something like what values to modify)
- which is newer firmware 2.6.14 or 2.6.7 ?   how beta are the test versions ?
- a guide to explain what the principal error can happen and what can mean the messages

thanks

I upgraded 3 of mine
now the other three are not giving me the option to auto update?
Love the ability to make my fans lower.


Now time to upgrade my miner. Io or give up an app to monitor these easily.

Hash, and Temps!

[s1gs3gv]

I think the price of bitcoin is determined by the market, not by the cost of producing it.

When bitcoin hit $1200 it wasn't because the cost of producing it increased, it was market forces.

The cost of producing bitcoin is raised or lowered to meet the market price, not the other way around. If bitcoin goes up to $1000, miners will see a profit incentive and more rigs will come online... driving up the mining difficulty and hence the cost of producing each bitcoin. If bitcoin goes down, some miners will switch off unprofitable rigs, reducing the cost of producing bitcoin (for the remaining miners). Mining expands or contracts to maintain an equilibrium where the profit from mining is marginal, whatever the market price is.

Miners are reacting to the market price, not the other way around. Very few people buying bitcoin would perform a calculation to see how much it would cost to mine bitcoin (i.e. what the production cost is), instead they look at the current market price.

Of course there are all sorts of economic forces in play that influence bitcoin pricing on a short term basis. But in a free market competition will ensure that the price of bitcoin trends towards the cost of producing it over the long term.

All bets are off, of course, if monopolies are able to establish themselves, non-free-market forces like the gox manipulation occur, etc.
The more interesting question is how can we model bitcoin prices once the supply asymptotically approaches 21 million and the cost of production asymptotically approaches infinity.

[Biodom]

I think the price of bitcoin is determined by the market, not by the cost of producing it.

When bitcoin hit $1200 it wasn't because the cost of producing it increased, it was market forces.

The cost of producing bitcoin is raised or lowered to meet the market price, not the other way around. If bitcoin goes up to $1000, miners will see a profit incentive and more rigs will come online... driving up the mining difficulty and hence the cost of producing each bitcoin. If bitcoin goes down, some miners will switch off unprofitable rigs, reducing the cost of producing bitcoin (for the remaining miners). Mining expands or contracts to maintain an equilibrium where the profit from mining is marginal, whatever the market price is.

Miners are reacting to the market price, not the other way around. Very few people buying bitcoin would perform a calculation to see how much it would cost to mine bitcoin (i.e. what the production cost is), instead they look at the current market price.

Of course there are all sorts of economic forces in play that influence bitcoin pricing on a short term basis. But in a free market competition will ensure that the price of bitcoin trends towards the cost of producing it over the long term.

All bets are off, of course, if monopolies are able to establish themselves, non-free-market forces like the gox manipulation occur, etc.
The more interesting question is how can we model bitcoin prices once the supply asymptotically approaches 21 million and the cost of production asymptotically approaches infinity.

following your logic, the price of bitcoin will then approach the infinity as well...which is a clearly not going to happen.
For practical purposes, though, the price of bitcoin will not be influenced much by the cost of its production as it approaches year 2140, because by then the cost will move to transactions. Honestly, I fail to see why the cost of production of 10% of bitcoin should have a dominant effect on ~65% that are already produced.

[s1gs3gv]

following your logic, the price of bitcoin will then approach the infinity as well...which is a clearly not going to happen.

There are clearly distinct stages in the evolution of pricing mechanisms for bitcoin. In the beginning it is dominated by uncertainty, greed, fear and hope, in the productive years by the laws of economic production, and in the very longest term by whatever utility it establishes for itself divided by the degree to which it is divisible.

Having said that, a lot of people here do act like they expect the value of bitcoin to go ballistic in their lifetime ...

[s1gs3gv]

Honestly, I fail to see why the cost of production of 10% of bitcoin should have a dominant effect on ~65% that are already produced.

Well that is quite simple. Why would someone pay you more for a bitcoin you acquired last week than what it would cost to produce a new one today ?

[Biodom]

Honestly, I fail to see why the cost of production of 10% of bitcoin should have a dominant effect on ~65% that are already produced.

Well that is quite simple. Why would someone pay you more for a bitcoin you acquired last week than what it would cost to produce a new one today ?

How about this: bitcoin is produced in countries all over the world, but is exchanged in a narrow value band.
I assume that the cost of production in china is maybe 1/4 of cost of production in New Jersey, yet the price is the basically same, hence the cost of production price argument is false.

I apologize for this distraction, we should take this argument to speculation.

[jimmothy]

...
And as mining gear becomes cheaper to manufacture and operate, bitcoin prices will continue to fall.
...

Care to explain ?

If the price of bitcoin trends towards the cost of producing it, and the cost of producing it decreases, then the price of bitcoin decreases

The thing you're completely leaving out of your equation is difficulty.

If $/gh and w/gh were cut in half tomorrow, we would not expect the value of bitcoin to halve, we would expect the difficulty to double.

The demand for bitcoin determines the exchange rate, and the exchange rate determines the demand for mining hardware.

[notlist3d]

Honestly, I fail to see why the cost of production of 10% of bitcoin should have a dominant effect on ~65% that are already produced.

Well that is quite simple. Why would someone pay you more for a bitcoin you acquired last week than what it would cost to produce a new one today ?

BTC market is controlled by what people are willing to pay.   The age of btc has no effect on value. It is all worth the same price.  Think of any thing scarce.  Gold has been mined for a very long time.   But gold that is mined 100 years ago is worth the same as if it was mined yesterday.

What will be really interesting as far as price will be next halfing or one day  when all is mined.

But back to thread.  SP gear is great I hope to see a home version of next generation but i understand it needs to make economic sense for you to commit resources to it.

[klondike_bar]

just received my first SP20 and install it.
... my petition to tech service...
- change version firmware history
- guide "howto" for advanced overclocking (something like what values to modify)
- which is newer firmware 2.6.14 or 2.6.7 ?   how beta are the test versions ?
- a guide to explain what the principal error can happen and what can mean the messages

thanks

theres plenty of info.
-to change the firmware go to the firmware tab, either auto update to a reliable version or use manual selection for a dropdown list of 'test' versions
-to overclock you just select the advanced settings and increase the starting/maximum voltages. plenty of suggestions and guides on here. 0.64V is about 1200GH/650W while 0.70V is around 1450GH/850W
-x.x.14 > x.x.7
-google is your friend

[Biomech]

12U, 16kw, 10 replaceable hashing boards.

IMHO, if you came out with something like 4U/5Kw/3 or 4 board version in the 20-25TH range you'd make a killing.  I think that would still keep the home miner in the game as basically anyone with 5 SP20's running today should/would be able to convert over to this. As with the SP30/31/35 the rack mount form factor would be great for those of us in a datacenter setting.

I would absolutely buy one of your third generation units at a 4U form factor, i can not imagine it costing you that much more to release both form factors simultaneously. Since if you did released it to industrial miners first they would have the advantage of the new ASIC technology before the home miners giving the industrial miners more of an advantage. Releasing both form factors simultaneously however would create a more level playing field. You would also gain even more respect then you already have amongst the Bitcoin community. Furthermore in the long run this might even be the most profitable strategy for spoondoolies, since what is good for Bitcoin is also good for spondoolies. that is one of the beautiful things about Bitcoin, it is supposed to align incentives towards good.

Launching two product lines simultaneously isn't feasible. As with our previous gens, we'll be open to sell our ASICs.
The 3 months lead time on the ASICs kill most of those deals.

If it at all helps to do pre-orders, i think you should. I would pre-order a 4u or 2u third generation unit and i am sure many other people here would do so as well, i bought my sp31's on a pre order as well after all.

Thank you for your suggestion. However, due to the technology risk of our 3rd gen tech, we don't think it's suitable for pre-orders by non accredited investors.
We're working on funding the masks set and initial batch not through pre-orders.

Don't underestimate how important it is that this company is actively resisting pre-orders.

This. There is exactly ONE reason I don't have any spondoolies equipment. I'm too poor I have followed this thread and interacted with a number of miners who did manage to get their lucky hands on one, and I've yet to hear of anything truly awful. A few bumps and bruises, and quickly resolved when they happened. Pre-orders are not necessarily egregious, but so much bad has come of them in this market that I think SP does well to avoid them.

[s1gs3gv]

The thing you're completely leaving out of your equation is difficulty.

No. Difficulty is a factor in the cost of production of bitcoin.

[s1gs3gv]

I apologize for this distraction, we should take this argument to speculation.

No need to apologize Biodom. No one is shouting at us yet LOL.

Personally I see the whole enterprise of mining AND mining equipment supply as a race to the bottom with no real winners. But it serves as a good example of the truth of my proposition. Lower and lower J/gh/s, higher and higher capital expenses, lower and lower bitcoin prices, higher risks, diminishing returns.

Who benefits ?

[Marvell1]

Its still hard for me the belive that sp20s made SP-tech no money.

-The chips are already developed and ready
-Boards are hillariously cheap .  It has 3 boards basically if you count the controller.
-No power supply.

The only thing I can think is the cost comes from the steel casing , if thats the case strip it down and sell the miner for the same price with just the hashing boards and a fan.  And charge extra
for an encased board.

The only oher thing i can think is they don't want competion for thier new bulk hardware which is strange to me since the hardware is not even in production yet?

[notlist3d]

Its still hard for me the belive that sp20s made SP-tech no money.

-The chips are already developed and ready
-Boards are hillariously cheap .  It has 3 boards basically if you count the controller.
-No power supply.

The only thing I can think is the cost comes from the steel casing , if thats the case strip it down and sell the miner for the same price with just the hashing boards and a fan.  And charge extra
for an encased board.

The only oher thing i can think is they don't want competion for thier new bulk hardware which is strange to me since the hardware is not even in production yet?

It could depend on what they put in as costs.   If R+D (including chips) and prototype and testing, etc that could add to cost.   Also I suspect at home miners take more customer service on running then a professional data center. 

I would guess on hardware it would be profitable unless you include costs mentioned above, then it's hard to say what their cost is. It is worth mentioning their build quality is very good.  To have a entire metal case and quality build costs more then plastic like S5.

[Dr Charles]

^^ build quality is excellent if you ask me. I have had very few problems with my SP20s. I cant speak on the rest of the products but I assume they are built to the same standard of quality.