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Author Topic: [ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11  (Read 563117 times)
p4r4m0un7
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September 03, 2014, 07:29:27 AM
 #5241

This is to continue the discussion about the PoC model. If I missed similar idea, please excuse me. I think that PoC model should be improved in some way. If it is possible, it should be kept, but changed. I suggest to raise the holding period to 6 months and 75 million coins (yes, raise). And also to assure that no exchange will take advantage of other people coins, I suggest that investment of 5 million KARMA should be send to dedicated address at least 3 months before any deal is announced or closed - we can discuss this term. This address could be same as KARMASHARES address - open for everyone to look at it. This way anyone can see which address is eligible for any profit. First see it at this special list and then look at the block explorer to see when the transaction was made. You know that I am strong supporter of the small investors and miners, but I have learned some lessons from the recent events. This 5 million coins can never be withdrawn and also can be used for Karma funding.

If such decision is taken, I am willing to update such list. Not holding the coins of course, just updating the list.

I forgot to mansion that no matter how many coins above 75 million somebody is holding, he/she will be able to profit share for exactly 75 million. So if somebody holding more than 75 million is willing to utilize his Karma, he will have to brake his holdings into multiple wallets and send 5 million from every wallet. Or if somebody is holding 150 million, he have to send 10 millions. But if his holdings are reduced to less than 150 million, he will be eligible for 75 million profit sharing, no matter that he sent 10 millions.
I urge you now to think about this PoC model, because now there is no more reason for greedy people to pursue their own interest.

All that will read my proposal. Please focus on how to improve PoC model, not on should it be removed or not. The discussion is not focused on kill or keep PoC.
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September 03, 2014, 07:34:47 AM
 #5242

I dont want to open up any old books..
But we did talk about a reverse split once.
Moolah is going to activly add and remove coins.

just look at Sat2 one of the only coins to do a reverse split.
and it is also not on the list of coins that will go to V2


Sat 2 is now about 15% of the value it had before it reverse split.

unless someone can point to an example of a reverse split that was successful then I would suggest that we look at history to determine what could happen.

also Mintpal almost died, that is why they were bought out by Moolah.

do you really want to tie the fate of Karma to Mintpal, an exchange that almost destroyed MANY coins?

I for one do not want modify the core fundamentals of a coin just so that it can be tied to an exchange that has the spectre of death looming over it.

coin economies need to learn how to outgrow exchanges if they are to survive. That is a simple fact.

I know its tough but a coin must maintain its integrity if it is going to survive in this game.

we should be lucky that we are even on the Moolah V2 list.. if we didn't have our integrity then we probably wouldn't even be on that list.

Moolah have said very clearly that their desire is to weed out all the scam coins and pump and dump coins.

you might think its not a deception to reverse split a coin but others might disagree with you and thats the problem..
if moolah thinks its kinda scammy then they could easily dump us from the list.. regardless of how people feel about the ethics of reverse splitting.

quite frankly I am concerned how mintpal can just delist coins at a whim without consulting anyone... it completely smacks of market manipulation.
I am very skeptical about whether they will survive into the future, even with the backing of moolah.


You cleared so much up for me and i cant disagree at all.
But i do feel its good if we contact moolah about us, karma, as a ltc dependent coin with high volume and active development, but this is to the dev team, otherwise if its wished i will write a short email but i dont think im the best in delivering the message of Karma as the best.

In the cryptocurrencie world we are experiencing a huge problem, the problem of dilution. More coins, same total volume same miners = dilution over an endless number of coins. So i am happy moolah says it wants to activly following coins to avoid these new scam coins, which 95% of new coins are.
As Karma we must make it our task to deliver the message why people should invest and believe in karma and not in icebucketcoin (i made this one up but im sure someone is developing it right now).

If we succeed in this, our btc market will florish on its own. As fast as we reach those 20 satoshi our worry which many coins dont have (depending on ltc) are gone.

Karma karma karma...
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September 03, 2014, 07:35:23 AM
 #5243

This is to continue the discussion about the PoC model. If I missed similar idea, please excuse me. I think that PoC model should be improved in some way. If it is possible, it should be kept, but changed. I suggest to raise the holding period to 6 months and 75 million coins (yes, raise). And also to assure that no exchange will take advantage of other people coins, I suggest that investment of 5 million KARMA should be send to dedicated address at least 3 months before any deal is announced or closed - we can discuss this term. This address could be same as KARMASHARES address - open for everyone to look at it. This way anyone can see which address is eligible for any profit. First see it at this special list and then look at the block explorer to see when the transaction was made. You know that I am strong supporter of the small investors and miners, but I have learned some lessons from the recent events. This 5 million coins can never be withdrawn and also can be used for Karma funding.

If such decision is taken, I am willing to update such list. Not holding the coins of course, just updating the list.

+1 rework the model and formalize it in a very clear document.

and then start using the funds in the Karma fund for bounties so that they can get more projects of the ground.

if Karmashares continues to disappoint its investors then those coins will end up worthless anyways. (im not saying I am disappointed just that I noticed a lot of complaints from others)

the problem is that most people do not want to work for free to benefit others.. only themselves... most people are greedy.
so if karmashares as a business wants to grow then it needs to learn how to harness that greed and not simply bow down and make off the cuff decisions to satisfy it.


as for the Karma community well we need to encourage people to hold coins when they are low in value and become more generous when they rise in value.

whales dumping and believers buying up cheap coins is not a bad thing as long as those believers become more altruistic and become the engine for wider adoption.

KARMA: KSc9oGgGga1TS4PqZNFxNS9LSDjdSgpC1B      VERT: VgKaooA5ZuLLUXTUANJigH9wCPuzBUBv9H
DOGE:   DRN7pXid34o6wQgUuK8BoSjWJ5g8jiEs4e
Alphi
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September 03, 2014, 07:37:34 AM
 #5244


But i do feel its good if we contact moolah about us, karma, as a ltc dependent coin.

+1
I couldn't agree more.
lets lobby to keep the LTC market.

or atleast contact moolah and discussing it with them, before attempting to mess with the coin code itself...


KARMA: KSc9oGgGga1TS4PqZNFxNS9LSDjdSgpC1B      VERT: VgKaooA5ZuLLUXTUANJigH9wCPuzBUBv9H
DOGE:   DRN7pXid34o6wQgUuK8BoSjWJ5g8jiEs4e
Bierworst
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September 03, 2014, 07:48:36 AM
 #5245

This is to continue the discussion about the PoC model. If I missed similar idea, please excuse me. I think that PoC model should be improved in some way. If it is possible, it should be kept, but changed. I suggest to raise the holding period to 6 months and 75 million coins (yes, raise). And also to assure that no exchange will take advantage of other people coins, I suggest that investment of 5 million KARMA should be send to dedicated address at least 3 months before any deal is announced or closed - we can discuss this term. This address could be same as KARMASHARES address - open for everyone to look at it. This way anyone can see which address is eligible for any profit. First see it at this special list and then look at the block explorer to see when the transaction was made. You know that I am strong supporter of the small investors and miners, but I have learned some lessons from the recent events. This 5 million coins can never be withdrawn and also can be used for Karma funding.

If such decision is taken, I am willing to update such list. Not holding the coins of course, just updating the list.

I forgot to mansion that no matter how many coins above 75 million somebody is holding, he/she will be able to profit share for exactly 75 million. So if somebody holding more than 75 million is willing to utilize his Karma, he will have to brake his holdings into multiple wallets and send 5 million from every wallet. Or if somebody is holding 150 million, he have to send 10 millions. But if his holdings are reduced to less than 150 million, he will be eligible for 75 million profit sharing, no matter that he sent 10 millions.
I urge you now to think about this PoC model, because now there is no more reason for greedy people to pursue their own interest.

You do realise 6 months is a very long time.
When i first bought karma i did not plan to keep it for 6 months to be honest with you. But now i do but i am just like 2% of everyone who bought karma. So the grow a good stack of people willing to do this 6 months is too long. In my opinion
p4r4m0un7
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September 03, 2014, 07:59:01 AM
 #5246

I am also proposing a penalty model to be discussed and voted. You all know that I have big mouth and sometimes I don't think before I speak and because of this maybe I have insulted someone. This is why I find myself a proper guy to propose a penalty model Grin. You all know that we have Code of conduct and everyone should stick to it, no matter who he is or think he is. Me, personally, I often dream that I am Yoda or at least Luke. But when I wake up, it seems that I can not move objects with a look at it. So, I suggest that if somebody insult Karma team member, a vote to be made in our forum. If the vote decides, this guy should be removed from profit sharing list for let's say 3 months. The vote can decide penalty only with at least 10 votes and 3/4 of the votes. This will mean that there are enough karmashare members that think somebody's behavior is not the Karma way.
Let's brainstorm on this. Shall we?

I find it unacceptable for someone to offend Karma team members. This story from past 2 days must never happen again. Most of the time these guys don`t even have personal time because of our interest. If we are not able to help them for any reason, it is imperative not to disrespect them at least.
p4r4m0un7
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September 03, 2014, 08:03:47 AM
 #5247

This is to continue the discussion about the PoC model. If I missed similar idea, please excuse me. I think that PoC model should be improved in some way. If it is possible, it should be kept, but changed. I suggest to raise the holding period to 6 months and 75 million coins (yes, raise). And also to assure that no exchange will take advantage of other people coins, I suggest that investment of 5 million KARMA should be send to dedicated address at least 3 months before any deal is announced or closed - we can discuss this term. This address could be same as KARMASHARES address - open for everyone to look at it. This way anyone can see which address is eligible for any profit. First see it at this special list and then look at the block explorer to see when the transaction was made. You know that I am strong supporter of the small investors and miners, but I have learned some lessons from the recent events. This 5 million coins can never be withdrawn and also can be used for Karma funding.

If such decision is taken, I am willing to update such list. Not holding the coins of course, just updating the list.

I forgot to mansion that no matter how many coins above 75 million somebody is holding, he/she will be able to profit share for exactly 75 million. So if somebody holding more than 75 million is willing to utilize his Karma, he will have to brake his holdings into multiple wallets and send 5 million from every wallet. Or if somebody is holding 150 million, he have to send 10 millions. But if his holdings are reduced to less than 150 million, he will be eligible for 75 million profit sharing, no matter that he sent 10 millions.
I urge you now to think about this PoC model, because now there is no more reason for greedy people to pursue their own interest.

You do realise 6 months is a very long time.
When i first bought karma i did not plan to keep it for 6 months to be honest with you. But now i do but i am just like 2% of everyone who bought karma. So the grow a good stack of people willing to do this 6 months is too long. In my opinion
Of course I do. All values are negotiable. All I want is Karma coin holders to keep their coins in their wallets for as long as possible and make investment in Karmashares and by this to assure they are serious. That is all. And one more thing. Keep in mind that the PoC model can be removed. Don't forget it. So, let's brainstorm how to improve it instead of kill it.
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September 03, 2014, 08:47:57 AM
 #5248

This is to continue the discussion about the PoC model. If I missed similar idea, please excuse me. I think that PoC model should be improved in some way. If it is possible, it should be kept, but changed. I suggest to raise the holding period to 6 months and 75 million coins (yes, raise). And also to assure that no exchange will take advantage of other people coins, I suggest that investment of 5 million KARMA should be send to dedicated address at least 3 months before any deal is announced or closed - we can discuss this term. This address could be same as KARMASHARES address - open for everyone to look at it. This way anyone can see which address is eligible for any profit. First see it at this special list and then look at the block explorer to see when the transaction was made. You know that I am strong supporter of the small investors and miners, but I have learned some lessons from the recent events. This 5 million coins can never be withdrawn and also can be used for Karma funding.

If such decision is taken, I am willing to update such list. Not holding the coins of course, just updating the list.

Karma has got a lot going for it, but our one feature which set us apart from every other coin out there is our PoC model. Hollowing out our PoC model like you are suggestion, decreases the appeal to hold some karma for every (small) newcomer.
 
75 million, even at today’s ridiculously low prices, represent an investment of 2/3 btc. That may not be huge for you, but it is to some people. It also limits the amount of people who can benefit. (53 billion free karma outside of the LLC divided by 75 million leaves 706 people, and we all know that number is going to be much lower in reality.)
 
Holding for 6 months instead of 3 isn’t going to be helpful to stop exchanges, they stack everything in cold wallets anyway. Asking for 6 months of nonstop holding is fine for us karma believers, but once again you make it less appealing for someone new to get into karma and it doesn’t fix a problem.

Mandatorily sending some coins to the LLC is something I could see working, all though I don’t agree with your current set up. 5 million for 75 million is way too high, but the same effect could be used by asking for 100k. I however don’t like the position it puts us as an LLC in.
 
I see a general tendency here and on our dedicated forum to get rid of PoC. As I look at it there is only one thing important, and that’s keeping in line with the SEC guidelines. If our current model is indeed failing to (possibly) answer to said guidelines, (can anyone tell me in what way, maybe we can brainstorm for a solution) than we should throw the concept out the door, or like p4r4m0un7 is doing, try to hollow it out until it is once again satisfactory.
Value and price coincide on this matter, which makes it extremely delicate. A diminished PoC model hurts the appeal and value/price of karma, thereby limiting the possibilities of the LLC.  The PoC model and the LLC are interdependent and I hope this is something everyone will keep in mind when discussing.
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September 03, 2014, 08:54:02 AM
 #5249

I am also proposing a penalty model to be discussed and voted. You all know that I have big mouth and sometimes I don't think before I speak and because of this maybe I have insulted someone. This is why I find myself a proper guy to propose a penalty model Grin. You all know that we have Code of conduct and everyone should stick to it, no matter who he is or think he is. Me, personally, I often dream that I am Yoda or at least Luke. But when I wake up, it seems that I can not move objects with a look at it. So, I suggest that if somebody insult Karma team member, a vote to be made in our forum. If the vote decides, this guy should be removed from profit sharing list for let's say 3 months. The vote can decide penalty only with at least 10 votes and 3/4 of the votes. This will mean that there are enough karmashare members that think somebody's behavior is not the Karma way.
Let's brainstorm on this. Shall we?

I didn`t clarify how exactly shareholders and coin holders will be associated with their addresses and nicknames, so this penalty system can work. Actually it is very easy and doesn`t require substantial work. From now on any announcements and discussions about any upcoming profit sharing must be made only in our forum. Only eligible to vote members should have access to appropriate thread. Kosmost knows which user to which karma address is related. What about coin holders? If you accept my suggestion for improved PoC model, this is how it works: When coin holder sends the 5 million to the Karmashares address, he/she will have to write down his/her nickname for Karmashares forum. This is it. I think it is simple and doesn`t require hard work.

I find it unacceptable for someone to offend Karma team members. This story from past 2 days must never happen again. Most of the time these guys don`t even have personal time because of our interest. If we are not able to help them for any reason, it is imperative not to disrespect them at least.
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September 03, 2014, 09:10:13 AM
 #5250

This is to continue the discussion about the PoC model. If I missed similar idea, please excuse me. I think that PoC model should be improved in some way. If it is possible, it should be kept, but changed. I suggest to raise the holding period to 6 months and 75 million coins (yes, raise). And also to assure that no exchange will take advantage of other people coins, I suggest that investment of 5 million KARMA should be send to dedicated address at least 3 months before any deal is announced or closed - we can discuss this term. This address could be same as KARMASHARES address - open for everyone to look at it. This way anyone can see which address is eligible for any profit. First see it at this special list and then look at the block explorer to see when the transaction was made. You know that I am strong supporter of the small investors and miners, but I have learned some lessons from the recent events. This 5 million coins can never be withdrawn and also can be used for Karma funding.

If such decision is taken, I am willing to update such list. Not holding the coins of course, just updating the list.

Karma has got a lot going for it, but our one feature which set us apart from every other coin out there is our PoC model. Hollowing out our PoC model like you are suggestion, decreases the appeal to hold some karma for every (small) newcomer.
 
75 million, even at today’s ridiculously low prices, represent an investment of 2/3 btc. That may not be huge for you, but it is to some people. It also limits the amount of people who can benefit. (53 billion free karma outside of the LLC divided by 75 million leaves 706 people, and we all know that number is going to be much lower in reality.)
 
Holding for 6 months instead of 3 isn’t going to be helpful to stop exchanges, they stack everything in cold wallets anyway. Asking for 6 months of nonstop holding is fine for us karma believers, but once again you make it less appealing for someone new to get into karma and it doesn’t fix a problem.

Mandatorily sending some coins to the LLC is something I could see working, all though I don’t agree with your current set up. 5 million for 75 million is way too high, but the same effect could be used by asking for 100k. I however don’t like the position it puts us as an LLC in.
 
I see a general tendency here and on our dedicated forum to get rid of PoC. As I look at it there is only one thing important, and that’s keeping in line with the SEC guidelines. If our current model is indeed failing to (possibly) answer to said guidelines, (can anyone tell me in what way, maybe we can brainstorm for a solution) than we should throw the concept out the door, or like p4r4m0un7 is doing, try to hollow it out until it is once again satisfactory.
Value and price coincide on this matter, which makes it extremely delicate. A diminished PoC model hurts the appeal and value/price of karma, thereby limiting the possibilities of the LLC.  The PoC model and the LLC are interdependent and I hope this is something everyone will keep this in mind when discussing.


As you have said, the PoC model could be removed at any moment. Actually, if you don`t know, it was already voted for. So let`s brainstorm how to improve it without having in mind that upcoming deal is on the way - this will keep our minds clear. And first of all, if you saw my posts on discussion about PoC, you will find that I am the strongest supporter of that model. But lessons are learned and measures must be taken.
All of the numbers are negotiable. But I have put this exact amounts with the idea that only long time supporters with substantial investment in Karma should be eligible to profit share on PoC model. And with my other suggestion for the penalty model, you will find it nearly impossible for exchanges to benefit from Karma. I know 5 mill is huge. But as you have said If exchange is holding 7.5 billion, it will have to spend 500 million to be able to participate in profit sharing. And still will have to hold this coins for 6 months. No exchange could do that. And also, please read my other proposal for the penalty model. You will find what I am suggesting about the discussions for future profit sharing. And just to clarify. The profit sharing must be for 80 million, not for 75 - 5 million to participate + 75 million for 6 months holding. And after all, I think this will not only eliminate exchanges, but push more people to withdraw their coins and keep them in their wallets. And again - all numbers are negotiable, but they should not be too low, as they are now.
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September 03, 2014, 01:02:07 PM
 #5251

I have the opinion that the POC model should be removed.
It will avoid us big headaches with regulatory entities.

It can cause massive dumping of Karma in the exchanges because of some big holders, but is better now than latter.
And if we do it right now we can not be accused of "not wanting to pay profits" because we had none in the two quarters until now.

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Bierworst
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September 03, 2014, 01:13:33 PM
 #5252

I have the opinion that the POC model should be removed.
It will avoid us big headaches with regulatory entities.

It can cause massive dumping of Karma in the exchanges because of some big holders, but is better now than latter.
And if we do it right now we can not be accused of "not wanting to pay profits" because we had none in the two quarters until now.

So why should it be removed, the rules are very clear. Any profits will be paid, there are no, so no payment. It is youw own choice to participate. The poc model also prevents people from just dumping their coins. Poc gives them a second thought and when they hold karma longer they maybe feel more attached to it. Simple psychology, ik hold karma in my wallet for profit, i dont receive profit because there is no, i must be holding karma because i like it.
Alphi
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September 03, 2014, 01:17:46 PM
 #5253

I have the opinion that the POC model should be removed.
It will avoid us big headaches with regulatory entities.

unless you mean completely disband the Karmashares LLC model for membership then I don't see how that will avoid regulatory entities.

it really doesn't change the regulatory grey area all that much if someone "buys" karmashares or if they get given them for performing some service (ie holding coins)

KARMA: KSc9oGgGga1TS4PqZNFxNS9LSDjdSgpC1B      VERT: VgKaooA5ZuLLUXTUANJigH9wCPuzBUBv9H
DOGE:   DRN7pXid34o6wQgUuK8BoSjWJ5g8jiEs4e
mashac
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September 03, 2014, 01:23:56 PM
 #5254

Either remove POC all together or make it like someone suggested before, 6 month holding period and minimum 100 million coins. Others that want LLC profit can always exchange their coins for 1.75x shares. Otherwise it is too easy and riskless, because 1 month isn't that much of a time and 10 million is too small to cause any help for a 50 billion coin. 100 million coins off the market for 6 months on the other hand will really help the Karma coin.

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Bierworst
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September 03, 2014, 01:38:09 PM
 #5255

Either remove POC all together or make it like someone suggested before, 6 month holding period and minimum 100 million coins. Others that want LLC profit can always exchange their coins for 1.75x shares. Otherwise it is too easy and riskless, because 1 month isn't that much of a time and 10 million is too small to cause any help for a 50 billion coin. 100 million coins off the market for 6 months on the other hand will really help the Karma coin.

This is all pure price dependent. If karma costs 600 litoshi, 100 million karma will have a price of 3000$ (correct me if im wrong). So it becomes buisiness 101, if i have 10.000 books and i sell them for 10$ a piece, 4000 of them get sold and i receive 40.000$, but if i make them 30$  a piece i only get 1000 sold because some people cant give that extra 20$ so i only receive 30.000$
Maybe not only do you reach less people, you also receive less.
What is better, 400 people with 10 million coins off the market, or 20 people with 100 million coins of the market.
I personally think its better to reach more people AND to have big whales inside the llc.

So you are just talking about its too easy for other to profit, but if it is interesting for more people it could also be reflected on the price, so or you only profit on karmashares llc, or you profit less on karmashares llc and more on karma.

p4r4m0un7
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September 03, 2014, 01:39:53 PM
 #5256

ptman, Bierworst, Alphi and all that will read my proposal. Please focus on how to improve PoC model, not on should it be removed or not. The discussion is not about kill or keep PoC. It is about how to make PoC better. Also I am thinking of PoC model as an integral part of Karma ecosystem, which also have Code of conduct. So, I have made proposal for penalty system. Please take a look at both proposals. First I have suggested in our forum that the minimum amount is to be 150 million Karma. Then I reduced this number to 75 million, but keeping in mind about the technical limitations which affects the amount for each wallet that is displayed in Block explorer. So, every holder will have the responsibility to keep enough coins in his wallet, so 75 million to be displayed in block explorer. All of my suggestions doesn`t need any substantial work or development. They are quite easy to implement and understand. We all just have to agree on them.
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September 03, 2014, 01:53:01 PM
 #5257

ptman, Bierworst, Alphi and all that will read my proposal. Please focus on how to improve PoC model, not on should it be removed or not. The discussion is not focused on kill or keep PoC. It is about how to make PoC better. Also I am thinking of PoC model as an integral part of Karma ecosystem, which also have Code of conduct. So, I have made proposal for penalty system. Please take a look at both proposals. First I have suggested in our forum that the minimum amount is to be 150 million Karma. Then I reduced this number to 75 million, but keeping in mind about the technical limitations which affects the amount for each wallet that is displayed in Block explorer. So, every holder will have the responsibility to keep enough coins in his wallet, so 75 million to be displayed in block explorer. All of my suggestions doesn`t need any substantial work or development. They are quite easy to implement and understand. We all just have to agree on them.

I agree.
What i would suggest is, like you said, people also have to send an amount of coins to karmashares llc, which is used for projects etc. This amount should not be too high! As people dont want to make a 50 euro investment for maaaaaybe proffits.
So the minimum of karma to hold in a wallet is 75 mil and of that 75 mil, 1.5% of the amount you are holding should be donated. This should be one easy click, as fast as you have this amount your wallet, there should be a possibility to say in that same wallet, i want to participate in the profit sharing, with that agreement, 1.5% will bw withdrawn from your wallet and send to the llc. As of now you participate.

Opinions?
Alphi
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September 03, 2014, 01:56:04 PM
 #5258

ptman, Bierworst, Alphi and all that will read my proposal. Please focus on how to improve PoC model, not on should it be removed or not. The discussion is not focused on kill or keep PoC. It is about how to make PoC better. Also I am thinking of PoC model as an integral part of Karma ecosystem, which also have Code of conduct. So, I have made proposal for penalty system. Please take a look at both proposals. First I have suggested in our forum that the minimum amount is to be 150 million Karma. Then I reduced this number to 75 million, but keeping in mind about the technical limitations which affects the amount for each wallet that is displayed in Block explorer. So, every holder will have the responsibility to keep enough coins in his wallet, so 75 million to be displayed in block explorer. All of my suggestions doesn`t need any substantial work or development. They are quite easy to implement and understand. We all just have to agree on them.

work out a way to use coin age to determine profit shares.

in other words.. the longer you hold the coins in one address the more X can get...

for example.. say 50% of the profits go to people who buy Karmashares... they are the ones who must register and get BTC profits.
and 50% goes to the community based on coin age.. they are the people who get Karma profits..  ie.. no registration necessary and profits get paid as Karma directly to the wallets with the oldest coins.

it doesn't have to be 50% 50% it could be any split that the community decides.

I think if Karmashares was split into two classes of "shares" ..

Class A karmashares for people who buy..
and Class B profit shares for people who hold coins.

Class A can have full voting rights.
Class B has no voting rights and only a share of profits.


I think if you do this then there will always be buying pressure for Karma.. because in order to pay dividends to the coin holders Karmashares will be buying coins on the open market. and in order to get more profits people will be holding coins for as long as they can.


we need to remember that Karmashares LLC is a limited liability company and not a Corpration.. so "Members" can decide who gets paid what and how much.
from my limited understanding of an LLC,  members are also entitled to decide who becomes and member and who doesn't, they can decide to kick anyone out at any time so if they find an exchange has been gaming the system, then there is no problem excluding them from payouts.



KARMA: KSc9oGgGga1TS4PqZNFxNS9LSDjdSgpC1B      VERT: VgKaooA5ZuLLUXTUANJigH9wCPuzBUBv9H
DOGE:   DRN7pXid34o6wQgUuK8BoSjWJ5g8jiEs4e
ptman
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September 03, 2014, 02:02:57 PM
 #5259

ptman, Bierworst, Alphi and all that will read my proposal. Please focus on how to improve PoC model, not on should it be removed or not. The discussion is not focused on kill or keep PoC. It is about how to make PoC better. Also I am thinking of PoC model as an integral part of Karma ecosystem, which also have Code of conduct. So, I have made proposal for penalty system. Please take a look at both proposals. First I have suggested in our forum that the minimum amount is to be 150 million Karma. Then I reduced this number to 75 million, but keeping in mind about the technical limitations which affects the amount for each wallet that is displayed in Block explorer. So, every holder will have the responsibility to keep enough coins in his wallet, so 75 million to be displayed in block explorer. All of my suggestions doesn`t need any substantial work or development. They are quite easy to implement and understand. We all just have to agree on them.

work out a way to use coin age to determine profit shares.

in other words.. the longer you hold the coins in one address the more X can get...

for example.. say 50% of the profits go to people who buy Karmashares... they are the ones who must register and get BTC profits.
and 50% goes to the community based on coin age.. they are the people who get Karma profits..  ie.. no registration necessary and profits get paid to the wallets with the oldest coins.

it doesn't have to be 50% 50% it could be any split that the community decides.

I think if Karmashares was split into two classes of "shares" ..

Class A karmashares for people who buy..
and Class B profit shares for people who hold coins.

Class A can have full voting rights.
Class B has no voting rights and only a share of profits.


I think if you do this then there will always be buying pressure for Karma.. because in order to pay dividends to the coin holders Karmashares will be buying coins on the open market. and in order to get more profits people will be holding coins for as long as they can.



I like some of your suggestions for improving the POC model.

But honestly I think the POC model represents too much of a headache.
For instance, how can you really know that a given person has more than 10 million coins in their wallet?
The wallet even has invisible addresses, that I was not even aware some months ago...
You may see a balance of >10 million Karma in your wallet, but maybe not even a single address of yours has more than 10 million (although that would be uncommon it can happen...).

Also I'm not sure if having 30 members is the same as having 300 members (because of POC holders) in the eyes of the regulatory entities.

My thinking process is simple.
If someone wants to be part of the Karmashares then they should buy shares.

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p4r4m0un7
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September 03, 2014, 02:10:21 PM
 #5260

ptman, Bierworst, Alphi and all that will read my proposal. Please focus on how to improve PoC model, not on should it be removed or not. The discussion is not focused on kill or keep PoC. It is about how to make PoC better. Also I am thinking of PoC model as an integral part of Karma ecosystem, which also have Code of conduct. So, I have made proposal for penalty system. Please take a look at both proposals. First I have suggested in our forum that the minimum amount is to be 150 million Karma. Then I reduced this number to 75 million, but keeping in mind about the technical limitations which affects the amount for each wallet that is displayed in Block explorer. So, every holder will have the responsibility to keep enough coins in his wallet, so 75 million to be displayed in block explorer. All of my suggestions doesn`t need any substantial work or development. They are quite easy to implement and understand. We all just have to agree on them.

I agree.
What i would suggest is, like you said, people also have to send an amount of coins to karmashares llc, which is used for projects etc. This amount should not be too high! As people dont want to make a 50 euro investment for maaaaaybe proffits.
So the minimum of karma to hold in a wallet is 75 mil and of that 75 mil, 1.5% of the amount you are holding should be donated. This should be one easy click, as fast as you have this amount your wallet, there should be a possibility to say in that same wallet, i want to participate in the profit sharing, with that agreement, 1.5% will bw withdrawn from your wallet and send to the llc. As of now you participate.

Opinions?

Actually, this investment should be a bigger percentage. I am suggesting this because I want to eliminate exchanges from profit sharing. This percentage + my proposal about how all future discussions on deals should be made are making it to hard and risky for any exchange to share profit. 1.5% is worth the risk for any exchange. But 6.666e% and above doesn`t. So I think that this percentage should be kept and if majority wants even increased. And one think should be also clear. I am suggesting not 5 million for 75+million holdings, but 5 million for every 75 million. After all we don`t want Karma to be in a few hands. We want it to flow and I think that my model is good for it. Not everyone is willing to manage multiple wallets. This is another reason why I`ve reduced my initial proposal for 150 million holdings.
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