[ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11

[Alphi]

The wallet even has invisible addresses, that I was not even aware some months ago...
You may see a balance of >10 million Karma in your wallet, but maybe not even a single address of yours has more than 10 million (although that would be uncommon it can happen...).

all of this info is in the blockchain. you can't see it in the wallet interface so if we did implement a coin age based system then we would need a nice website or updated wallet to go with it so that people could easily see what percentage they were entitled to.

Also I'm not sure if having 30 members is the same as having 300 members (because of POC holders) in the eyes of the regulatory entities.

selling LLC membership can only be offered privately so I take your point.. it probably is more difficult to claim that your Karmashares offering is "private" when it has 300+ members.

I am not an expert on LLC licensing in Wyoming so I can't comment on whether the current system is 100% by the letter of the law or not.
all I know is that when the LLC was set up some legal advice was sought.



I know that some people are in favor of scrapping the coin holding profits completely.. but you need to consider that some people will dump if Karmashares do that.. AND nobody will buy Karmashares until there is a very real possibility of ROI.

currently Karmashares has no revenues and no profit so it will be very difficult to convince people to buy Karmashares.

[1714221897]

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[1714221897]

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[ptman]

The wallet even has invisible addresses, that I was not even aware some months ago...
You may see a balance of >10 million Karma in your wallet, but maybe not even a single address of yours has more than 10 million (although that would be uncommon it can happen...).

all of this info is in the blockchain. you can't see it in the wallet interface so if we did implement a coin age based system then we would need a nice website or updated wallet to go with it so that people could easily see what percentage they were entitled to.

Also I'm not sure if having 30 members is the same as having 300 members (because of POC holders) in the eyes of the regulatory entities.

selling LLC membership can only be offered privately so I take your point.. it probably is more difficult to claim that your Karmashares offering is "private" when it has 300+ members.

I am not an expert on LLC licensing in Wyoming so I can't comment on whether the current system is 100% by the letter of the law or not.
all I know is that when the LLC was set up some legal advice was sought.



I know that some people are in favor of scrapping the coin holding profits completely.. but you need to consider that some people will dump if Karmashares do that.. AND nobody will buy Karmashares until there is a very real possibility of ROI.

currently Karmashares has no revenues and no profit so it will be very difficult to convince people to buy Karmashares.

Nice suggestion about the update wallet showing the percentage

About the possibility of dumping in the case of POC ending.
I do not see that as a bad thing, as the price does not really matter right now.
It would see that as a opportunity for the people with less money and a strong belief in Karma to buy more.

[p4r4m0un7]

ptman, Bierworst, Alphi and all that will read my proposal. Please focus on how to improve PoC model, not on should it be removed or not. The discussion is not focused on kill or keep PoC. It is about how to make PoC better. Also I am thinking of PoC model as an integral part of Karma ecosystem, which also have Code of conduct. So, I have made proposal for penalty system. Please take a look at both proposals. First I have suggested in our forum that the minimum amount is to be 150 million Karma. Then I reduced this number to 75 million, but keeping in mind about the technical limitations which affects the amount for each wallet that is displayed in Block explorer. So, every holder will have the responsibility to keep enough coins in his wallet, so 75 million to be displayed in block explorer. All of my suggestions doesn`t need any substantial work or development. They are quite easy to implement and understand. We all just have to agree on them.

work out a way to use coin age to determine profit shares.

in other words.. the longer you hold the coins in one address the more X can get...

for example.. say 50% of the profits go to people who buy Karmashares... they are the ones who must register and get BTC profits.
and 50% goes to the community based on coin age.. they are the people who get Karma profits..  ie.. no registration necessary and profits get paid to the wallets with the oldest coins.

it doesn't have to be 50% 50% it could be any split that the community decides.

I think if Karmashares was split into two classes of "shares" ..

Class A karmashares for people who buy..
and Class B profit shares for people who hold coins.

Class A can have full voting rights.
Class B has no voting rights and only a share of profits.


I think if you do this then there will always be buying pressure for Karma.. because in order to pay dividends to the coin holders Karmashares will be buying coins on the open market. and in order to get more profits people will be holding coins for as long as they can.

I like some of your suggestions for improving the POC model.

But honestly I think the POC model represents too much of a headache.
For instance, how can you really know that a given person has more than 10 million coins in their wallet?
The wallet even has invisible addresses, that I was not even aware some months ago...
You may see a balance of >10 million Karma in your wallet, but maybe not even a single address of yours has more than 10 million (although that would be uncommon it can happen...).

Also I'm not sure if having 30 members is the same as having 300 members (because of POC holders) in the eyes of the regulatory entities.

My thinking process is simple.
If someone wants to be part of the Karmashares then they should buy shares.

Again, this is not about to have or not to have PoC model. It is about how to improve it. Also, I see now that you didn`r read all of what I have written. In one of my posts I have said that because of the technology limitations, it will be coin holder responsibility to keep enough coins, so the Block explorer can "display" the needed 75 mill. Also as I have clarified that 5 million are needed for every 75 million in order to participate. It is not headache at all . Imagine that you are responsible for managing PoC list. I am sending you 5 million and you are checking if I have 75 mill. If I do, then I am eligible to start participating. Time for profit is coming (apf, my speller is no good and changed one of the letters ) - ok, now you look at every address from the list if it is holding at least 75 mill for the last 6 months.

To be a part of Karmashares is not the same as to profit share. This is the uniqueness of the PoC and what makes Karma different. If you don`t know, I`ll tell you that there are other coins with shares model, but no other with PoC model. And again, this is not about to keep or not PoC. It is about how to improve it without making it two difficult to understand.

[p4r4m0un7]

ptman, Bierworst, Alphi and all that will read my proposal. Please focus on how to improve PoC model, not on should it be removed or not. The discussion is not focused on kill or keep PoC. It is about how to make PoC better. Also I am thinking of PoC model as an integral part of Karma ecosystem, which also have Code of conduct. So, I have made proposal for penalty system. Please take a look at both proposals. First I have suggested in our forum that the minimum amount is to be 150 million Karma. Then I reduced this number to 75 million, but keeping in mind about the technical limitations which affects the amount for each wallet that is displayed in Block explorer. So, every holder will have the responsibility to keep enough coins in his wallet, so 75 million to be displayed in block explorer. All of my suggestions doesn`t need any substantial work or development. They are quite easy to implement and understand. We all just have to agree on them.

work out a way to use coin age to determine profit shares.

in other words.. the longer you hold the coins in one address the more X can get...

for example.. say 50% of the profits go to people who buy Karmashares... they are the ones who must register and get BTC profits.
and 50% goes to the community based on coin age.. they are the people who get Karma profits..  ie.. no registration necessary and profits get paid as Karma directly to the wallets with the oldest coins.

it doesn't have to be 50% 50% it could be any split that the community decides.

I think if Karmashares was split into two classes of "shares" ..

Class A karmashares for people who buy..
and Class B profit shares for people who hold coins.

Class A can have full voting rights.
Class B has no voting rights and only a share of profits.


I think if you do this then there will always be buying pressure for Karma.. because in order to pay dividends to the coin holders Karmashares will be buying coins on the open market. and in order to get more profits people will be holding coins for as long as they can.


we need to remember that Karmashares LLC is a limited liability company and not a Corpration.. so "Members" can decide who gets paid what and how much.
from my limited understanding of an LLC,  members are also entitled to decide who becomes and member and who doesn't, they can decide to kick anyone out at any time so if they find an exchange has been gaming the system, then there is no problem excluding them from payouts.

About this: "we need to remember that Karmashares LLC is a limited liability company and not a Corpration.. so "Members" can decide who gets paid what and how much.
from my limited understanding of an LLC,  members are also entitled to decide who becomes and member and who doesn't, they can decide to kick anyone out at any time so if they find an exchange has been gaming the system, then there is no problem excluding them from payouts."

As far as I have read and managed to understand several days ago, this is true. This is how I came up with the penalty model. Check it out - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=579973.msg8650705#msg8650705

[Alphi]

And again, this is not about to keep or not PoC. It is about how to improve it without making it two difficult to understand.

I agree it has to be easy enough for a 12 year old to understand with clearly written rules and instructions and nice pretty pictures to show you where you are on the list.

[p4r4m0un7]

ptman, Bierworst, Alphi and all that will read my proposal. Please focus on how to improve PoC model, not on should it be removed or not. The discussion is not focused on kill or keep PoC. It is about how to make PoC better. Also I am thinking of PoC model as an integral part of Karma ecosystem, which also have Code of conduct. So, I have made proposal for penalty system. Please take a look at both proposals. First I have suggested in our forum that the minimum amount is to be 150 million Karma. Then I reduced this number to 75 million, but keeping in mind about the technical limitations which affects the amount for each wallet that is displayed in Block explorer. So, every holder will have the responsibility to keep enough coins in his wallet, so 75 million to be displayed in block explorer. All of my suggestions doesn`t need any substantial work or development. They are quite easy to implement and understand. We all just have to agree on them.

work out a way to use coin age to determine profit shares.

in other words.. the longer you hold the coins in one address the more X can get...

for example.. say 50% of the profits go to people who buy Karmashares... they are the ones who must register and get BTC profits.
and 50% goes to the community based on coin age.. they are the people who get Karma profits..  ie.. no registration necessary and profits get paid as Karma directly to the wallets with the oldest coins.

it doesn't have to be 50% 50% it could be any split that the community decides.

I think if Karmashares was split into two classes of "shares" ..

Class A karmashares for people who buy..
and Class B profit shares for people who hold coins.

Class A can have full voting rights.
Class B has no voting rights and only a share of profits.


I think if you do this then there will always be buying pressure for Karma.. because in order to pay dividends to the coin holders Karmashares will be buying coins on the open market. and in order to get more profits people will be holding coins for as long as they can.


we need to remember that Karmashares LLC is a limited liability company and not a Corpration.. so "Members" can decide who gets paid what and how much.
from my limited understanding of an LLC,  members are also entitled to decide who becomes and member and who doesn't, they can decide to kick anyone out at any time so if they find an exchange has been gaming the system, then there is no problem excluding them from payouts.

This is nice. I like your addition and I am for it.

On a second thought - what happens if coin holders are less than shareholders and their points are far less then share holders - how can we determine exact percentage? Two many variables. I will stick to my initial proposal.
But paying in Karma to coin holders is really good idea.

[Alphi]

As far as I have read and managed to understand several days ago, this is true. This is how I came up with the penalty model. Check it out - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=579973.msg8650705#msg8650705

sure if the Karmashares members vote on any penalty system then it can be implemented.

personally though I am all for freedom of speech just as I am all for peoples right to use Karma for whatever they want.. just as long as it is sticking to the general theme and doing some kind of good.

i don't believe that people should be penalized for disagreeing with another member, but obviously if they are causing damage to the reputation of Karmashares then the members would and should have some method for dealing with it.

I respect the rights of Karmashares or any other company from doing business in the karma economy any way they see fit and making up any rules they want for their own business. if they want to decide who gets paid and who doesn't from their own money then that's completely fine by me.

I only speak out when people try to tamper with the Karma itself without providing a valid technical reason for doing so.

if you said to me something like "we will confiscate coins from people who insult Karmashares members" then I would get very vocal lolz.

[p4r4m0un7]

And again, this is not about to keep or not PoC. It is about how to improve it without making it two difficult to understand.

I agree it has to be easy enough for a 12 year old to understand with clearly written rules and instructions and nice pretty pictures to show you where you are on the list.

I am not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but I fell of the chair. You`ve made my day. rofl.

[Alphi]

On a second thought - what happens if coin holders are less than shareholders and their points are far less then share holders - how can we determine exact percentage? Two many variables. I will stick to my initial proposal.
But paying in Karma to coin holders is really good idea.

it is a technical problem which can be solved with the blockchain and the right algorithm.

there are already PoS coins that use coin age to determine staking.
most of the work has already been done in that regard.

the only difference is that instead of using coin age to determine who can generate new coins you are using coin age to determine who gets a cut of profits.

its a very trivial technical distinction.

[Alphi]

I am not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but I fell of the chair. You`ve made my day. rofl.

not sarcasm.. if you want 12 year olds to use Karma then it has to be easy enough for a 12 year old to understand ... 

[p4r4m0un7]

As far as I have read and managed to understand several days ago, this is true. This is how I came up with the penalty model. Check it out - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=579973.msg8650705#msg8650705

sure if the Karmashares members vote on any penalty system then it can be implemented.

personally though I am all for freedom of speech just as I am all for peoples right to use Karma for whatever they want.. just as long as it is sticking to the general theme and doing some kind of good.

i don't believe that people should be penalized for disagreeing with another member, but obviously if they are causing damage to the reputation of Karmashares then the members would and should have some method for dealing with it.

I respect the rights of Karmashares or any other company from doing business in the karma economy any way they see fit and making up any rules they want for their own business. if they want to decide who gets paid and who doesn't from their own money then that's completely fine by me.

I only speak out when people try to tamper with the Karma itself without providing a valid technical reason for doing so.

if you said to me something like "we will confiscate coins from people who insult Karmashares members" then I would get very vocal lolz.

I agree with all you`ve said. This is why I am proposing 10 members with 3/4 majority. This will guarantee that no one with reading rights will offend Karma team member. Keep in mind that I am suggesting only Karmashares members and eligible according to my new PoC model people to be able to read sensitive information which is making people to go crazy. Of course if someone is willing to curse here on bitcointalk, then I have no idea what to do. There are medical specialists for such behavior. Good they don`t know about me.

[Bierworst]

And again, this is not about to keep or not PoC. It is about how to improve it without making it two difficult to understand.

I agree it has to be easy enough for a 12 year old to understand with clearly written rules and instructions and nice pretty pictures to show you where you are on the list.

Hallelujah, because this is the most important problem to the crypto world, in my opinion.
I myself, dont know the first thing about what happens in a computer what an algorythm of ancoin does how to mine it or all the shortcuts you people use. The jargon on most fora and websites about what a coin has mean nothing to me. I want to learn myself things so i look up what it means i ask it etc. But you have to make everything easy, if i tell my girlfriend to buy karma ornto use it to participate in the karmashares llc, she would lose her interest after 5 seconds. Make karma interesting to noobs, because there is a finite number of people with your knowledge but there is a seemless infinite number of noobs like my girlfriend.

Secondly, you people have great ideas for a new setup for the profits and membership for the llc, but to make it interesting we need a steady profit generation.
What i like is a Karma casino, i know there are some casino games for coins, but i mean a casino taken to the next generation. First, is it legal to open a casino if the funds are karmacoin? As anyone says, cryptocurrencies are no valuta but a comodaty so in my eyes it is legal to do whatever you want in a cryptocoin casino?

The casino would work as followed, we start with a roulette because this is the casinogame where most people take risks, 1/37 chance to win when betting on a number. I as a computer noob think its easy to generate to code something like a roulette, 37 numbers, 3 colors, red black and green, even odd, 1/18 19/36 etc. When i see what you people can code it should be a piece of cake to write a code that generate 37 random numbers.
People can buy in using karma and they receive points for every 10000karma, so 10.000 karma is displayed as 1 point. The effect of using point is people start forgetting the value of it, it is easier to bet 10 points than 100.000 karma. The perfect return to player is around 97%. Assume 100 million karma is used every day (about 400$ which is not much) this would generate 3 million karma for the llc eveyday. This amount can just be sold on the market because if one wants to play casino they have to buy Karma so in a perfect world the price would just stay the same.

What do you think about this? It has to be a nice friendly, userfriendly casino. Pretty colors, not much nonsense, no waiting times for every round because once the coins are deposited you can play till you run out of money. My example would generate about 120-150 dollars every month, just for one casino game and assuming the return to player is absolutely perfect. But in practice the return to player is not perfect, the people who achieve the return to player percentage are the ones that play with very small money. If you have 1 person betting 100 points on a wrong number the return to player is directly lower for that month. If this income overtime gets to 1000$ a month we are really talking numbers.

Ofcourse, because its karma, a percentage will be given to charity

[p4r4m0un7]

I am not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but I fell of the chair. You`ve made my day. rofl.

not sarcasm.. if you want 12 year olds to use Karma then it has to be easy enough for a 12 year old to understand ... 

Wright, wright.   I`ve said it because they know far more than us and they are smarter than us. But they are still 12.  

[Chargin]

I suggest you make good on what has been promised instead of trying to go back on it or change it now because you will just leave a bad taste in peoples' mouths. I find it hard to reconcile that you think you can vote to change or take away what somebody else is entitled to.

People should be free to express their opinions without being financially penalised. This is an unmoderated topic so they can do exactly that. If they break the rules of the medium they are posting in the punishment should be contained to it.

Karma should stay away from anything that is morally questionable, including providing the facilities to gamble.

Chargin.

[p4r4m0un7]

I suggest you make good on what has been promised instead of trying to go back on it or change it now because you will just leave a bad taste in peoples' mouths. I find it hard to reconcile that you think you can vote to change or take away what somebody else is entitled to.

People should be free to express their opinions without being financially penalised. This is an unmoderated topic so they can do exactly that. If they break the rules of the medium they are posting in the punishment should be contained to it.

Chargin.

You are right about that. Bitcointalk is not moderated. It is related to all coins directly. It can not and should not lead to any penalties. But Karmashares forum is moderated. And it should be, cause it is related to Company and law. Rules are rules and must be followed. So, if somebody wants to participate and share thoughts, he/she will have to think twice before insulting any Karma team member. And everyone there must read and accept Karma Code of conduct. If 3/4 of all that vote think somebody is offending Karma team member it is obvious that this is an idiot. I don`t see any kind of limitation for free speech. The limitation is for those who forget who is actually doing all of the work and/or despite that is willing to insult him at public. And don`t forget that vote with certain rules is needed. I am not suggesting one guy to decide.

[p4r4m0un7]

About my 2 suggestions for improved PoC model and Penalty system - I want to acquire as mush as possible opinions and then I will propose a vote in Karmashares forum. I think 7 days are enough to think about both.

[kosmost]

Allow me to pose a question to the community, if I may.

As we discussed, we will focus on bringing Karma to unbanked populations in the Philippines
per http://karmashares.com/forums/index.php/topic,565.0.html

(Indonesia is also a prime target, as another member has pointed out.)

Please reply to this post with how do you think you can help make this happen. We don't want to be in a situation where the many are depending on the very few to make things happen. This surely can be a community effort. I don't mean the involvement of everyone in the community but I'm shooting for 2-5% actively working on something (assuming 300 members of the Karma community, including lurkers)

Being part of the Karma team does not presume activity, either. As most of the time we, the team, does what the community does (just talk without action). We need action now, not just pages and pages of text.

(This is the cold, hard reality. There is no beating around the bush.)

Anyone can come up with a plan. Hopefully, we can discover the plan together. My concern now (from my experiences with Karma) is "who will do the work to make it happen?"

I don't want to present a plan and be one of 2 people doing actual work to make it happen. We have only to take a look at the vast quantity of un-touched tasks on the Karmashares forum (even those that are assigned to specific people) to see a little of what I am talking about. Of course, after I began to see that people didn't want to be assigned responsibilities (or let others know what they're working on), I stopped creating tasks.

Lots of us talk about what needs to be done, but about 90% of the time Karma calls for help are met with radio silence.

"Somebody else did something, now let's talk about it" = 100
"Something needs to be done" = 50
"Here's what we can do" = 25
"Yes, I can help" = 12
"I will do this particular task and here's how I will do it" = 6
"Here is what I have done" = 2 or 3, including myself

Lack of active involvement is the fundamental issue here. We need less talk (especially about market movements and price) and more action (equates to value, especially long term price increases).

Why would anyone want to be the only person doing the work, while others wish to sit around and reap the benefits of their labour?

No one?

Surely there must be someone in the Karma community that wants to actively help grow Karma?

[p4r4m0un7]

I am sure there is, but many of them can`t, many of them doesn`t know how and many of them doesn`t have the skill to do it. With the growing of Karma, I am sure that more skillful people will come. It is inevitable.

[Bierworst]

Allow me to pose a question to the community, if I may.

As we discussed, we will focus on bringing Karma to unbanked populations in the Philippines
per http://karmashares.com/forums/index.php/topic,565.0.html

(Indonesia is also a prime target, as another member has pointed out.)

Please reply to this post with how do you think you can help make this happen. We don't want to be in a situation where the many are depending on the very few to make things happen. This surely can be a community effort. I don't mean the involvement of everyone in the community but I'm shooting for 2-5% actively working on something (assuming 300 members of the Karma community, including lurkers)

Being part of the Karma team does not presume activity, either. As most of the time we, the team, does what the community does (just talk without action). We need action now, not just pages and pages of text.

(This is the cold, hard reality. There is no beating around the bush.)

Anyone can come up with a plan. Hopefully, we can discover the plan together. My concern now (from my experiences with Karma) is "who will do the work to make it happen?"

I don't want to present a plan and be one of 2 people doing actual work to make it happen. We have only to take a look at the vast quantity of un-touched tasks on the Karmashares forum (even those that are assigned to specific people) to see a little of what I am talking about. Of course, after I began to see that people didn't want to be assigned responsibilities (or let others know what they're working on), I stopped creating tasks.

Lots of us talk about what needs to be done, but about 90% of the time Karma calls for help are met with radio silence.

"Somebody else did something, now let's talk about it" = 100
"Something needs to be done" = 50
"Here's what we can do" = 25
"Yes, I can help" = 12
"I will do this particular task and here's how I will do it" = 6
"Here is what I have done" = 2 or 3, including myself

Lack of active involvement is the fundamental issue here. We need less talk (especially about market movements and price) and more action (equates to value, especially long term price increases).

Why would anyone want to be the only person doing the work, while others wish to sit around and reap the benefits of their labour?

No one?

Surely there must be someone in the Karma community that wants to actively help grow Karma?

I think it is a great idea, but before any testing we need to facilitate a few things

1. KarmX how far is the development of it now?
2. How will they be able to buy karmX easy! And do we facilitate the changing nack to money and how would they be able to acces this money, as they dont use banks and they cant pay their food with karmX

Could you give me some more info on this then i would like to think about it and write you a plan of execution for tonight how i think we can achieve this and how it can be deployed

[ptman]

Allow me to pose a question to the community, if I may.

As we discussed, we will focus on bringing Karma to unbanked populations in the Philippines
per http://karmashares.com/forums/index.php/topic,565.0.html

(Indonesia is also a prime target, as another member has pointed out.)

Please reply to this post with how do you think you can help make this happen. We don't want to be in a situation where the many are depending on the very few to make things happen. This surely can be a community effort. I don't mean the involvement of everyone in the community but I'm shooting for 2-5% actively working on something (assuming 300 members of the Karma community, including lurkers)

Being part of the Karma team does not presume activity, either. As most of the time we, the team, does what the community does (just talk without action). We need action now, not just pages and pages of text.

(This is the cold, hard reality. There is no beating around the bush.)

Anyone can come up with a plan. Hopefully, we can discover the plan together. My concern now (from my experiences with Karma) is "who will do the work to make it happen?"

I don't want to present a plan and be one of 2 people doing actual work to make it happen. We have only to take a look at the vast quantity of un-touched tasks on the Karmashares forum (even those that are assigned to specific people) to see a little of what I am talking about. Of course, after I began to see that people didn't want to be assigned responsibilities (or let others know what they're working on), I stopped creating tasks.

Lots of us talk about what needs to be done, but about 90% of the time Karma calls for help are met with radio silence.

"Somebody else did something, now let's talk about it" = 100
"Something needs to be done" = 50
"Here's what we can do" = 25
"Yes, I can help" = 12
"I will do this particular task and here's how I will do it" = 6
"Here is what I have done" = 2 or 3, including myself

Lack of active involvement is the fundamental issue here. We need less talk (especially about market movements and price) and more action (equates to value, especially long term price increases).

Why would anyone want to be the only person doing the work, while others wish to sit around and reap the benefits of their labour?

No one?

Surely there must be someone in the Karma community that wants to actively help grow Karma?

I want to help more.
I can code most languages that are used nowadays.
I just do not like to work alone.
I need someone to work with me (like I'm currently working with learminer on the Karma game), because I'm also working on other projects and I need someone to exchange ideas and also to give me extra motivation when I'm not being productive (ask about the progress, etc).