[ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"

[Northstar]

...

One fundamental aspect of CLAM is that it was well known from the very get-go [...]

It's true. We knew from the outset that this was a risk. We also knew from the outset that having a "lottery" style staking system (block rewards 'randomly' between 0.1 and 1000 CLAMs) was probably gameable. When it became clear that it was being gamed, the rules were changed to remove the lottery system. That was before JD started using CLAM, but it happened. The CLAM rules have been changed several times already in reaction to observations. It's not like the current ruleset is somehow untouchable. It's just the current ruleset.

Previous changes have been handed down to us by the CLAM developers with little to no consultation with the larger community, and certainly no voting.

I understand that quite a large percentage of the community thinks we should leave digging just as it is now. If that's the most widespread opinion (modulo CLAM holdings) then that's what a vote would result in happening.

Is there anyone who thinks we should leave digging just as it is now even if the majority of CLAM holders want it to be changed? ie. is there anyone who doesn't want this put to a vote?

Doog, not sure if you read my entire post, but I don't advocate leaving things as they are necessarily. What I was getting at is that changes are not necessarily bad as long as they are made in order to preserve the fairness of the coin and its core principles, and not its monetary value. The changes that were implemented that you speak of were done in that manner, and that's ok.
My suggestion as a solution was to restrict large commercial entities with access to other people's addy's from digging, like exchanges and gambling sites. That was not the intent of the distribution model and is not fair to average joes, especially ones whose addy's the exchanges would use to dig. I was hoping you would chime in as to the feasibility of "isolating" such digs, technically speaking. Is it possible?

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[dooglus]

Dooglus I want my 3,000 CLAMs back from me paying you off for giving me insider information to shake Rat4 with his dox (provided to me by dooglus) and purchase 30% of the Clamcoins prior to Just-Dice launch.  Please deposited to:

xS93qVJw4uypKmZjNKj8JgrgC2QQvxenWZ

Resulting in not giving my money back will result in negative feedback and other negative outcomes.

You have 48 hours from this post.

It was 1001 CLAMs. Here's the transaction:
  http://khashier.com/tx/e717d753d434552738710d08aeef32528db29300043658a0eb6f57cfc0ba9f58

I never had rat4's dox and don't condone you "shaking" people.

[dooglus]

Doog, not sure if you read my entire post, but I don't advocate leaving things as they are necessarily. What I was getting at is that changes are not necessarily bad as long as they are made in order to preserve the fairness of the coin and its core principles, and not its monetary value. The changes that were implemented that you speak of were done in that manner, and that's ok.
My suggestion as a solution was to restrict large commercial entities with access to other people's addy's from digging, like exchanges and gambling sites. That was not the intent of the distribution model and is not fair to average joes, especially ones whose addy's the exchanges would use to dig. I was hoping you would chime in as to the feasibility of "isolating" such digs, technically speaking. Is it possible?

I did read your post. Sorry for skipping over most of it in my reply.

I don't think it's really feasible to determine which wallets are "big commercial" and which aren't. Then there are the big commercial entities like poloniex who dug their large wallet and shared the CLAMs with their users. That should be OK with us, right? So then we have to be able to determine who is sharing their CLAMs and who isn't. And it all becomes a giant mess, with 'us' having to snoop into 'their' business to determine who gets to dig and who doesn't.

[TooDumbForBitcoin]

Dooglus I want my 3,000 CLAMs back from me paying you off for giving me insider information to shake Rat4 with his dox (provided to me by dooglus) and purchase 30% of the Clamcoins prior to Just-Dice launch.  Please deposited to:

xS93qVJw4uypKmZjNKj8JgrgC2QQvxenWZ

Resulting in not giving my money back will result in negative feedback and other negative outcomes.

You have 48 hours from this post.

It was 1001 CLAMs. Here's the transaction:
  http://khashier.com/tx/e717d753d434552738710d08aeef32528db29300043658a0eb6f57cfc0ba9f58

I never had rat4's dox and don't condone you "shaking" people.

I"ll bet all my CLAMs (I don't have any), that BAC comes back and says, "yeah, but CLAM has dropped 2/3 in price, so you owe me 3000".

[dooglus]

Dooglus I want my 3,000 CLAMs back from me paying you off for giving me insider information to shake Rat4 with his dox (provided to me by dooglus) and purchase 30% of the Clamcoins prior to Just-Dice launch.  Please deposited to:

It was 1001 CLAMs. Here's the transaction:
  http://khashier.com/tx/e717d753d434552738710d08aeef32528db29300043658a0eb6f57cfc0ba9f58

And the 1001 CLAMs was a tip for staking your CLAMs for you before Just-Dice had launched. There was never any hint that it was "a payoff" or "protection money". I wouldn't have accepted it if there was any suggestion that it came with strings attached. Maybe I missed the "verbal agreement" or whatever. It seemed to me like you were just very happy with the return you were making from staking:

23:57 <dooglus> Balance: 30009.7468575 CLAM
23:57 <dooglus> that's after I took off my 50% commission
23:57 <dooglus> also, http://privatepaste.com/[...]
23:57 <dooglus> is up to date
23:58 <BayAreaCoins> rofl that page was so big it made this shitty little Macbook pro have a stroke
23:59 <BayAreaCoins> Go a head and take 1000 for your self too on top of your 50%
23:59 <BayAreaCoins> fucking awsome dude
23:59 <BayAreaCoins> doog*
--- Log closed Tue Nov 25 00:00:14 2014


--- Log opened Tue Nov 25 00:00:14 2014
00:03 <dooglus> yeah, every stake shown up as 2 lines: -5 then +6
00:04 <dooglus> you sure about the 1k?
00:04 <BayAreaCoins> 100%
00:07 <BayAreaCoins> (sorry on the phone about [...])
00:07 <BayAreaCoins> (can prove this is me however if ever you need, but it is I)
00:08 <dooglus> I believe it's you
00:08 <dooglus> and thanks
00:08 <dooglus> (sorry got people here)
00:08 <BayAreaCoins> np sir
00:08 <BayAreaCoins> no worries
00:08 <dooglus> yeah, you staked 951 clams already
00:09 <dooglus> like over 3% of your total
00:10 <BayAreaCoins> Ya that is cray
[...]
00:38 <dooglus> I took 1001: http://[...]/tx/e717d753d434552738710d08aeef32528db29300043658a0eb6f57cfc0ba9f58 because that way I didn't
 have to make change
00:38 <BayAreaCoins>  Jesus doog I said 1000! (lulz jk ) cool ty
00:38 <dooglus> heh
00:38 <BayAreaCoins> Not many people will thank you for taking a tip bahahhaha
00:39 <BayAreaCoins> rofl but ty, I couldn't do what you are doing

Unfortunately I can't post logs about rat4's dox, because no such conversation ever happened between us.

xploited seems to think that creative found his name for you, but I wasn't party to that conversation.

[tspacepilot]

I'm strongly on the side of not making reactionary changes to the rules based on someone actually using CLAMS as they were intended.  IMO, reactionary changes like this will make CLAM very much unserious, borderline scammy.  I'd certainly sell off any holdings I have at the moment such news was announced.

[Northstar]

By the way, on the topic of Doog... I don't really want to get involved between the spat with BAC but I'd like to point out that first of all, without Doog CLAM wouldn't be where it is today, it probably would have remained confined to obscurity without JD. He's done this community a service and I think BAC you yourself have profited greatly owing to this, and I believe a bit of respect or at least gratefulness is in order.
Also, it was Doog who pointed out the digger to the community in the first place if I remember correctly. We might have found out eventually anyways, but how long it would have taken for someone to realize this and make it public, we can only guess. I see no indication that Doog profited from his knowledge, ie he could have dumped a lot of clams before making this info public and panic ensuing. That in itself I think speaks volumes about his credibility.
Actions speak louder than words.

[DrkLvr_]

Is there anyone who thinks we should leave digging just as it is now even if the majority of CLAM holders want it to be changed?

Hi dooglus, in my opinion the proposal i put forth on the previous page for a halving in May 2016 (with subsequent halvings twice the number of years after the previous one) was the simplest and least drastic change of all options so far - and it hasn't had even a single person saying they thought it was a good idea.

Maybe i'm wrong, but at this point it looks to me like the majority of CLAM holders want things to stay exactly as they are (as long as there are no immediate security concerns)

[BayAreaCoins]

I"ll bet all my CLAMs (I don't have any), that BAC comes back and says, "yeah, but CLAM has dropped 2/3 in price, so you owe me 3000".

I'm not saying that in the least bit.

Dooglus I want my 3,000 CLAMs back from me paying you off for giving me insider information to shake Rat4 with his dox (provided to me by dooglus) and purchase 30% of the Clamcoins prior to Just-Dice launch.  Please deposited to:

It was 1001 CLAMs. Here's the transaction:
  http://khashier.com/tx/e717d753d434552738710d08aeef32528db29300043658a0eb6f57cfc0ba9f58

And the 1001 CLAMs was a tip for staking your CLAMs for you before Just-Dice had launched. There was never any hint that it was "a payoff" or "protection money". I wouldn't have accepted it if there was any suggestion that it came with strings attached. Maybe I missed the "verbal agreement" or whatever. It seemed to me like you were just very happy with the return you were making from staking:

23:57 <dooglus> Balance: 30009.7468575 CLAM
23:57 <dooglus> that's after I took off my 50% commission
23:57 <dooglus> also, http://privatepaste.com/[...]
23:57 <dooglus> is up to date
23:58 <BayAreaCoins> rofl that page was so big it made this shitty little Macbook pro have a stroke
23:59 <BayAreaCoins> Go a head and take 1000 for your self too on top of your 50%
23:59 <BayAreaCoins> fucking awsome dude
23:59 <BayAreaCoins> doog*
--- Log closed Tue Nov 25 00:00:14 2014


--- Log opened Tue Nov 25 00:00:14 2014
00:03 <dooglus> yeah, every stake shown up as 2 lines: -5 then +6
00:04 <dooglus> you sure about the 1k?
00:04 <BayAreaCoins> 100%
00:07 <BayAreaCoins> (sorry on the phone about [...])
00:07 <BayAreaCoins> (can prove this is me however if ever you need, but it is I)
00:08 <dooglus> I believe it's you
00:08 <dooglus> and thanks
00:08 <dooglus> (sorry got people here)
00:08 <BayAreaCoins> np sir
00:08 <BayAreaCoins> no worries
00:08 <dooglus> yeah, you staked 951 clams already
00:09 <dooglus> like over 3% of your total
00:10 <BayAreaCoins> Ya that is cray
[...]
00:38 <dooglus> I took 1001: http://[...]/tx/e717d753d434552738710d08aeef32528db29300043658a0eb6f57cfc0ba9f58 because that way I didn't
 have to make change
00:38 <BayAreaCoins>  Jesus doog I said 1000! (lulz jk ) cool ty
00:38 <dooglus> heh
00:38 <BayAreaCoins> Not many people will thank you for taking a tip bahahhaha
00:39 <BayAreaCoins> rofl but ty, I couldn't do what you are doing

Unfortunately I can't post logs about rat4's dox, because no such conversation ever happened between us.

xploited seems to think that creative found his name for you, but I wasn't party to that conversation.

I'm going to make a post in the Scam section and we can move this muggy conversation over there.

I'm going to search/think and see if I can find any further info on my end because my intentions are not to libel or extort you as state in the Just-Dice troll box.

This isn't the first time not logging IRC has bit me in the ass dealing with shady fucks in crypto.... *sigh*  

By the way, on the topic of Doog... I don't really want to get involved between the spat with BAC but I'd like to point out that first of all, without Doog CLAM wouldn't be where it is today, it probably would have remained confined to obscurity without JD. He's done this community a service and I think BAC you yourself have profited greatly owing to this, and I believe a bit of respect or at least gratefulness is in order.
Also, it was Doog who pointed out the digger to the community in the first place if I remember correctly. We might have found out eventually anyways, but how long it would have taken for someone to realize this and make it public, we can only guess. I see no indication that Doog profited from his knowledge, ie he could have dumped a lot of clams before making this info public and panic ensuing. That in itself I think speaks volumes about his credibility.
Actions speak louder than words.

Dooglus has done a lot.

He identified the person gaming the CLAM lottery to steal tens of thousands of CLAM, passed that information to the proper parties, opened Just-Dice, manipulated CLAM price, pointed out the digger (which Dooglus did sell CLAMS once identifying the digger and prior to his post) and now he's lobbying in favor of locking his casino in a firm grip of forever centralizing CLAM through ending digging.

I just want my tip back is all because obviously we aren't on the same page about what it was about.  Dooglus indian gifted KYLE, so of course the same will come in return.

And the 1001 CLAMs was a tip for staking your CLAMs for you before Just-Dice had launched. There was never any hint that it was "a payoff" or "protection money". I wouldn't have accepted it if there was any suggestion that it came with strings attached. Maybe I missed the "verbal agreement" or whatever. It seemed to me like you were just very happy with the return you were making from staking:

I'm pretty sure that's what every crooked politician and other folks say as well when the truth starts coming out  

[Domrada]

I'm strongly on the side of not making reactionary changes to the rules based on someone actually using CLAMS as they were intended.  IMO, reactionary changes like this will make CLAM very much unserious, borderline scammy.  I'd certainly sell off any holdings I have at the moment such news was announced.

I am strongly on the side of making a rule change. I do not characterize a potential change as reactionary. The open ended liability due to digging has been an unanswered problem for potential investors with CLAM since the beginning. The proposition to investors is and has been "hey, come check out our altcoin; if you invest your money, there is a chance the supply could suddenly increase by 1000% or more and dilute the shit out of whatever you invest!" That's unattractive. Any change that reduces or removes this liability makes the coin more attractive to investors. TSP threatening to sell off his holdings in response to a rule change that would shore up the value of those holding strikes me as less than genuine.

[DrkLvr_]

By the way, on the topic of Doog... I don't really want to get involved between the spat with BAC but I'd like to point out that first of all, without Doog CLAM wouldn't be where it is today, it probably would have remained confined to obscurity without JD. He's done this community a service and I think BAC you yourself have profited greatly owing to this, and I believe a bit of respect or at least gratefulness is in order.
Also, it was Doog who pointed out the digger to the community in the first place if I remember correctly. We might have found out eventually anyways, but how long it would have taken for someone to realize this and make it public, we can only guess. I see no indication that Doog profited from his knowledge, ie he could have dumped a lot of clams before making this info public and panic ensuing. That in itself I think speaks volumes about his credibility.
Actions speak louder than words.

100% agreed. All i've seen from BayAreaShitcoins is that he's a loud-mouthed dramatic narcissist who operates a shitty looking CLAM faucet, and a shitty looking CLAM digging site. I'd trade a dozen BayAreaShitcoins for another 0.5 doogs any day.

[BayAreaCoins]

By the way, on the topic of Doog... I don't really want to get involved between the spat with BAC but I'd like to point out that first of all, without Doog CLAM wouldn't be where it is today, it probably would have remained confined to obscurity without JD. He's done this community a service and I think BAC you yourself have profited greatly owing to this, and I believe a bit of respect or at least gratefulness is in order.
Also, it was Doog who pointed out the digger to the community in the first place if I remember correctly. We might have found out eventually anyways, but how long it would have taken for someone to realize this and make it public, we can only guess. I see no indication that Doog profited from his knowledge, ie he could have dumped a lot of clams before making this info public and panic ensuing. That in itself I think speaks volumes about his credibility.
Actions speak louder than words.

100% agreed. All i've seen from BayAreaShitcoins is that he's a loud-mouthed dramatic narcissist who operates a shitty looking CLAM faucet, and a shitty looking CLAM digging site. I'd trade a dozen BayAreaShitcoins for another 0.5 doogs any day.

Um... thx for evening having BayAreaShitcoins to trade .

Sorry scamming the community out of millions of Clamcoins isn't going as good as you thought it would DrkShill... you might be able to convince dooglus to do it anyways.  I'm reasonably sure it's going to happen eventual despite not having consensus... greedy greedy.  

Keep beating away at it DrkShill!

Taking the rest of the day off to dig through my shit.

[DrkLvr_]

By the way, on the topic of Doog... I don't really want to get involved between the spat with BAC but I'd like to point out that first of all, without Doog CLAM wouldn't be where it is today, it probably would have remained confined to obscurity without JD. He's done this community a service and I think BAC you yourself have profited greatly owing to this, and I believe a bit of respect or at least gratefulness is in order.
Also, it was Doog who pointed out the digger to the community in the first place if I remember correctly. We might have found out eventually anyways, but how long it would have taken for someone to realize this and make it public, we can only guess. I see no indication that Doog profited from his knowledge, ie he could have dumped a lot of clams before making this info public and panic ensuing. That in itself I think speaks volumes about his credibility.
Actions speak louder than words.

100% agreed. All i've seen from BayAreaShitcoins is that he's a loud-mouthed dramatic narcissist who operates a shitty looking CLAM faucet, and a shitty looking CLAM digging site. I'd trade a dozen BayAreaShitcoins for another 0.5 doogs any day.

Um... thx for evening having BayAreaShitcoins to trade .

Sorry scamming the community out of millions of Clamcoins isn't going as good as you thought it would DrkShill... you might be able to convince dooglus to do it anyways.  I'm reasonably sure it's going to happen eventual despite not having consensus... greedy greedy.  

Keep beating away at it DrkShill!

Taking the rest of the day off to dig through my shit.

DrkShill? Nice one

The community has concerns regarding the current situation and I posted my suggestions for discussion. Nothing more.  If you read my last few posts in this thread you'd already know that.

Good.. take the rest of the day, week, month, year.. whatever.

[SuperClam]

I've remained mostly silent recently because I did not want to overly influence the communities discussion with my own personal opinions.


The offensive language and behavior in the thread has gotten out of hand, however.

Until things settle down, posts which are off-topic, not helpful, contain ad hominem attacks or offensive language will be deleted.


This thread is intended to be a forum for deliberative discussion; that can't take place with the type of posting that has been occurring recently.

[jpcfan]

can't we all just get along-rodney king



after being beaten by batons

[DrkLvr_]

I've remained mostly silent recently because I did not want to overly influence the communities discussion with my own personal opinions.

Respectfully, there's a fine line between wanting to "not overly influence" and just a lack of leadership. You've been asked by a few people to clarify your proposal and couldn't even be bothered to acknowledge let alone respond.

[SuperClam]

I've remained mostly silent recently because I did not want to overly influence the communities discussion with my own personal opinions.

Respectfully, there's a fine line between wanting to "not overly influence" and just a lack of leadership. You've been asked by a few people to clarify your proposal and couldn't even be bothered to acknowledge let alone respond.

Last I checked, the rules of this network lends it to being consensus driven; not "leadership" driven.
"Leadership" would only be worth listening to if it came attached to a pull-request or release of the client.
At which point, users either update - or not.

That is how this ship sails.
And how it should sail.


My larger proposal isn't fully fleshed out and ready to be implemented.
Questions concerning them asked by others involved with the project have been mostly answered over personal channels.

Didn't think in-depth discussion of the parameters was helpful considering that the parameters will almost certainly change.
If you have a specific question, I would be happy to answer it to the best of my ability.

[therealabagail]

my 2 cents; in cryptoland history there have been many hacks/scandals/defunkt sites with many account holders and the crypto community being screwed. More whale diggers with the data from those hacked/scandal/defunkt sites might turn up in the future screwing the crypto community over a second time. As long as the risk remains that more whale diggers might turn up in the future, more investors will leave clam than new investors join. I say let's have a vote and i vote for the halving option so current investors don't have to be afraid their investment melts like snow in the sun any time a new whale digger turns up. With halving people can still dig and clam can still state "perhaps you own some already".
   

[doothewop]

With halving people can still dig and clam can still state "perhaps you own some already".

Yeah, I like the halving idea, if anything.

[DrkLvr_]

I've remained mostly silent recently because I did not want to overly influence the communities discussion with my own personal opinions.

Respectfully, there's a fine line between wanting to "not overly influence" and just a lack of leadership. You've been asked by a few people to clarify your proposal and couldn't even be bothered to acknowledge let alone respond.

Last I checked, the rules of this network lends it to being consensus driven; not "leadership" driven.
"Leadership" would only be worth listening to if it came attached to a pull-request or release of the client.
At which point, users either update - or not.

That is how this ship sails.
And how it should sail.


My larger proposal isn't fully fleshed out and ready to be implemented.
Questions concerning them asked by others involved with the project have been mostly answered over personal channels.

Didn't think in-depth discussion of the parameters was helpful considering that the parameters will almost certainly change.
If you have a specific question, I would be happy to answer it to the best of my ability.

An idealistic notion.. but a ship with no one at the helm sinks.