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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2030619 times)
Melbustus
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November 12, 2014, 11:23:40 PM
 #16661

The rising price hasn't lifted my spirits much at all.
Still reeling from this bad news.  (Bad for gold, bad for Bitcoin)
http://news.goldseek.com/GATA/1415649749.php
...
http://www.gata.org/files/VonNotHausOrder-Nov-10-2014.pdf

In which Judge Voorhees writes about my friend Bernard von NotHaus, one of the inspirations for Satoshi...
A quote from the previous horrible case Gellman v US:

Quote
"The United States has the sole power to coin money under the Constitution, and if anyone, individual or
State, assumes to supplant the medium of exchange adopted by our Government,
or assumes to compete with the United States Government in this regard, a
violation of these statutes would follow. Undoubtedly, no one can interfere with
the monopoly which this Government has obtained by reason of the
Constitutional provisions without running afoul of these statutes"
...
Whether the rationale
set forth in Gellman is adopted or not, the Court finds that under the construction of Section 486
applied here, contemplating that if a coin is intended for use as current money then there is
necessarily a deceptive quality about its design, Defendant’s conviction on Count Three must be
upheld.
For the reasons set forth herein, the undersigned is of the opinion, and this Court so finds
as a matter of law, that Congress indeed possesses the power to criminalize an individual’s
minting of coinage, whether in resemblance of U.S. coins or of original design, that is intended
for use as current money.

This... in contrast to several state's "lawful money" decisions (Calif), and even precious metal as Legal Tender laws (Utah)


That's a ridiculous interpretation of Article I (am I missing some other constitutional commentary on currency issuance?). Seems a very unlikely attack vector against bitcoin unless additional explicit legislation is passed (and it would have to somehow deal only with bitcoin et al, lest they set precedent that any Chuck E Cheese franchise owner is running an illegal currency scheme).

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
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Melbustus
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November 13, 2014, 12:00:01 AM
 #16662

How much did David Chaum have solved at Digicash/eCash?

Some of the notes on the relevant wikipedia pages suggest he had double-spending solved:

Quote
...
Depending on the payment transactions, one distinguishes between on-line and off-line electronic cash: If the payee has to contact a third party (e.g., the bank or the credit-card company acting as an acquirer) before accepting a payment, the system is called an on-line system.[2] In 1990, Chaum together with Naor proposed the first off-line e-cash system, which was also based on blind signatures.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecash


Quote
In 1988, he extended this idea (with Amos Fiat and Moni Naor) to prevent double-spending.[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Chaum


Anyone have any more info on this? Was eCash's remaining problem merely initial-coin distribution, or was BGP actually not (practically) 'solved' despite the above?

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
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November 13, 2014, 12:53:39 AM
 #16663

How much did David Chaum have solved at Digicash/eCash?

Some of the notes on the relevant wikipedia pages suggest he had double-spending solved:

Quote
...
Depending on the payment transactions, one distinguishes between on-line and off-line electronic cash: If the payee has to contact a third party (e.g., the bank or the credit-card company acting as an acquirer) before accepting a payment, the system is called an on-line system.[2] In 1990, Chaum together with Naor proposed the first off-line e-cash system, which was also based on blind signatures.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecash


Quote
In 1988, he extended this idea (with Amos Fiat and Moni Naor) to prevent double-spending.[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Chaum


Anyone have any more info on this? Was eCash's remaining problem merely initial-coin distribution, or was BGP actually not (practically) 'solved' despite the above?

I moved the question and my comments on it into another thread in dev/tech section https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=856069.msg9526439#msg9526439 as its not really to do with speculation nor gold, though an interesting question!

Adam

hashcash, committed transactions, homomorphic values, blind kdf; researching decentralization, scalability and fungibility/anonymity
brg444
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November 13, 2014, 01:05:29 AM
 #16664

How much did David Chaum have solved at Digicash/eCash?

Some of the notes on the relevant wikipedia pages suggest he had double-spending solved:

Quote
...
Depending on the payment transactions, one distinguishes between on-line and off-line electronic cash: If the payee has to contact a third party (e.g., the bank or the credit-card company acting as an acquirer) before accepting a payment, the system is called an on-line system.[2] In 1990, Chaum together with Naor proposed the first off-line e-cash system, which was also based on blind signatures.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecash


Quote
In 1988, he extended this idea (with Amos Fiat and Moni Naor) to prevent double-spending.[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Chaum


Anyone have any more info on this? Was eCash's remaining problem merely initial-coin distribution, or was BGP actually not (practically) 'solved' despite the above?

I moved the question and my comments on it into another thread in dev/tech section https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=856069.msg9526439#msg9526439 as its not really to do with speculation nor gold, though an interesting question!

Adam


so you've been snooping on our sidechains debate all along heh  Cheesy

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 13, 2014, 01:12:07 AM
 #16665

Ha! I was wondering when we'd get back to gold collapsing

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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November 13, 2014, 01:18:40 AM
 #16666

so you've been snooping on our sidechains debate all along heh  Cheesy
Based on the occasional snide comments I see posted in other parts of the 'net, lots of people are watching this thread without commenting.
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November 13, 2014, 01:22:03 AM
 #16667

so you've been snooping on our sidechains debate all along heh  Cheesy
Based on the occasional snide comments I see posted in other parts of the 'net, lots of people are watching this thread without commenting.

so I'm famous now  Huh


 Cool

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 13, 2014, 01:24:59 AM
 #16668

so you've been snooping on our sidechains debate all along heh  Cheesy
Based on the occasional snide comments I see posted in other parts of the 'net, lots of people are watching this thread without commenting.

so I'm famous now  Huh


 Cool

like i said, you should apply for a job. Wink
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November 13, 2014, 01:28:26 AM
 #16669

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/bloomberg-panel-discussion-on-outlook-for-bitcoin-NTorPlQGQzurnbQgYEz9~g.html

just started watching, impressive lineup. thought I'd share

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 13, 2014, 01:32:31 AM
 #16670



Ugh - looks interesting... I really don't have time for this tonight.

I *almost* (not really) miss the days when I could read/watch the past week's worth of mainstream bitcoin coverage in 10 minutes.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
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November 13, 2014, 01:36:04 AM
 #16671



Ugh - looks interesting... I really don't have time for this tonight.

I *almost* (not really) miss the days when I could read/watch the past week's worth of mainstream bitcoin coverage in 10 minutes.

yeah, me too.  had to stop. 

but i will listen eventually mainly b/c of Susan Athey.  she really understands the importance of the SOV aspect of Bitcoin.  not too many of those around these days.
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November 13, 2014, 01:39:13 AM
 #16672

Dan Pantera didn't defend the "money" position. I'm mad  Angry

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 13, 2014, 01:40:35 AM
Last edit: November 13, 2014, 02:11:15 AM by brg444
 #16673



Ugh - looks interesting... I really don't have time for this tonight.

I *almost* (not really) miss the days when I could read/watch the past week's worth of mainstream bitcoin coverage in 10 minutes.

yeah, me too.  had to stop.  

but i will listen eventually mainly b/c of Susan Athey.  she really understands the importance of the SOV aspect of Bitcoin.  not too many of those around these days.

She actually said "you don't have to hold Bitcoin". And that you should use it to send money around and cashing out to fiat   Undecided

edit : guy from TeraExchange said he imagines a massive derivatives market on top of Bitcoin, likens it to gold a lot. smart man

edit2: susan athey is very confused. says you can hold you USD in coinbase. reiterates the notion "you don't have to hold Bitcoin for the system to grow"

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 13, 2014, 01:58:53 AM
 #16674

Isn't she on-board with Ripple? None of those statements are surprising then.
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November 13, 2014, 02:00:15 AM
 #16675

I see in that video how they instantly mention the negative of a large currency unit.  Do people really want to be fiddling with tiny little bits, ie. roughly why litecoin and possibly also dogecoin are maybe better liked; you can have 10 and its not a great big deal to handle.  Simple thing but its factor to the masses imo

Same thing can be argued with gold.  Just a gram is more then many people would carry in their back pockets without thinking about it, common currency has to be just that if you really want mainstream

Guy at 10:20 gets it, people lack imagination.  They dont care about your 32 bit hash encryption, its really just the immediate factors affecting them and thats success and future price

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November 13, 2014, 02:08:37 AM
 #16676

I see in that video how they instantly mention the negative of a large currency unit.  Do people really want to be fiddling with tiny little bits, ie. roughly why litecoin and possibly also dogecoin are maybe better liked; you can have 10 and its not a great big deal to handle.  Simple thing but its factor to the masses imo

Same thing can be argued with gold.  Just a gram is more then many people would carry in their back pockets without thinking about it, common currency has to be just that if you really want mainstream

This can easily be fixed and in fact is being worked on.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 13, 2014, 02:17:25 AM
 #16677

Isn't she on-board with Ripple? None of those statements are surprising then.

she's a fraud  Angry

first question from Q&A is why the classic Bitcoin and not just "blockchain" fintech innovation and she's the first to reply with "Ripple!"

it's a shame though cause it does seem like she sees the value proposition when she develops her answer furthermore...

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 13, 2014, 02:17:50 AM
 #16678

...so it annoys me when you folks try to fuck it up ...

Define, please.

when tvbcof gets mad, he just gets mad at everyone.

Yes, no, sorta.  Most often my troll-fests correspond with a good mood and goodwill to all.  'You only troll the ones you love', dontcha know?  Besides, Justus (or shall I say, 'Doogie Coder') started the 8-ball rollin' on the very amusing age thing IIRC.

Oh, while I'm here, 'define' would be to provoke a growth spurt in Bitcoin which would change the nature of the solution.  I've outlined my concerns hundreds of times I'm sure.


sig spam anywhere and self-moderated threads on the pol&soc board are for losers.
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November 13, 2014, 03:27:40 AM
 #16679

so beautiful.

this is one of those "get on now or risk being left behind forever" moments.  Cheesy
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November 13, 2014, 03:32:37 AM
 #16680

Charlie Songhurst from Katana ended the Bloomberg panel with a fantastic quote I have to share

"Innovation isn't random chance, it's a probabilistic outcome based on labour and capital. If you want to monitor the health of the ecosystem and know where the innovation is at ; look where smartest developers and savyest VCs are putting their labour and capital."

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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