[XMR] Monero Speculation

[dnaleor]

I thought I would never say this, but investing a small % of your crypto in DOGE as a hedge seems reasonable now.
of course, XMR is a way better hedge than DOGE.
And for people who have a low net worth, having more XMR than BTC can even be reasonable.

I'm sure most of us have more XMR than BTC.

in nominal terms, sure.
But I'm talking about fiat value of the holdings.

[Bassica]

I thought I would never say this, but investing a small % of your crypto in DOGE as a hedge seems reasonable now.
of course, XMR is a way better hedge than DOGE.
And for people who have a low net worth, having more XMR than BTC can even be reasonable.

I'm sure most of us have more XMR than BTC.

in nominal terms, sure.
But I'm talking about fiat value of the holdings.

I know I do

Weekly MACD looks like it's ready to flip into the green. Nice time/place to go into rally mode...

[MalMen]

I'm sure most of us have more XMR than BTC.

I am 75% monero 25% bitcoin

[Bagatell]

I'm sure most of us have more XMR than BTC.

I am 75% monero 25% bitcoin

Risto may end up with more Barrons than he bargained for.

[wpalczynski]

Yes, it is a miracle if XMR is listed at btc-e

It will eventually, its only a matter of time!!  Obviously the sooner the better.

I'll believe it when I see it. So many people have said that over the years and they have been adamant about keeping what coins they have already. Most likely coming from the fact that it's LTC's bread and butter.

Sure, valid point but i think they will realize the importance of anonymity and fungibility and IMHO there are no other serious contenders in that space.

[dEBRUYNE]

Another update from ShenNoether (NobleSir) regarding Confidential Transactions (CT) for Monero:

edit 12/15/2015: I'm starting to play around with some c/c++ stuff that will help me implement this thing for real - I'll probably take a couple weeks off for xmas holidays though starting next week, so expect no updates dec 17-jan 4

All updates & links are in this thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3pw30d/ringct_for_monero_updated_versions/

Another one:

edit 12/17/2015: I have updated the draft on eprint.iacr.org in response to some knock-off versions of this math showing up without citation.

Link: http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1098

And another update:

edit 1/6/2016: Coded a version of the MG sigs with improved readability. Next up is the c++ version.

Link: https://github.com/ShenNoether/MiniNero/commit/a761fbf2bda5a4bf135ad4d48266aa9857c1e11b

We also had this interesting update last week:

Section 4.4 can be found here -> https://www.overleaf.com/read/qzgytbyyxvyf

Interesting comment from Shen about multisig

yep - very likely will be implemented in conjunction with the ring ct stuff

Following the "written up" link in the Ring CT post, section 4.4 of the paper describes how to implement "Ring multisignature". Some of the other CryptoNote coins have multisig, but only with 0 mixin.

Very nice work being done on the crypto front.

So soon™ I guess? :-P

[dEBRUYNE]

This is worrisome -> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3zrvs8/bitpay_is_actively_cooperating_with_chainalysis/

[smooth]

This is worrisome -> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3zrvs8/bitpay_is_actively_cooperating_with_chainalysis/

i`M really annoyed of this fungibility problem that bitcoin has, we should resolve this fast or bitcoin can become an instrument of tyrrany in the future.

It is what is is. Bitcoin is first generation blockchain ledger technology that both by design and by culture and precedent is highly resistant to change. Maybe that will be good enough to maintain its lead in the market or maybe not.

One thing we can be almost certain will not happen is that it won't be resolved fast.

[jehst]

This is worrisome -> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3zrvs8/bitpay_is_actively_cooperating_with_chainalysis/

i`M really annoyed of this fungibility problem that bitcoin has, we should resolve this fast or bitcoin can become an instrument of tyrrany in the future.

It is what is is. Bitcoin is first generation blockchain ledger technology that both by design and by culture and precedent is highly resistant to change. Maybe that will be good enough to maintain its lead in the market or maybe not.

One thing we can be almost certain will not happen is that it won't be resolved fast.

it will never be resolved, if it's this difficult to make the blocksize 2MB, then unlinkability or unraceability will never be added. it's too big of a change.

[dEBRUYNE]

This is worrisome -> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3zrvs8/bitpay_is_actively_cooperating_with_chainalysis/

i`M really annoyed of this fungibility problem that bitcoin has, we should resolve this fast or bitcoin can become an instrument of tyrrany in the future.

It is what is is. Bitcoin is first generation blockchain ledger technology that both by design and by culture and precedent is highly resistant to change. Maybe that will be good enough to maintain its lead in the market or maybe not.

One thing we can be almost certain will not happen is that it won't be resolved fast.

Just look at how slow this blocksize issue is progressing. In my opinion, fungibility is a way bigger issue in comparison with blocksize. I'd rather have a fungible blockchain that is constraint by blocksize than vice versa. If you think the blocksize issue sparked a heated debate, you are in for a surpise once this issue will spark a debate.

[GingerAle]

This is worrisome -> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3zrvs8/bitpay_is_actively_cooperating_with_chainalysis/

i`M really annoyed of this fungibility problem that bitcoin has, we should resolve this fast or bitcoin can become an instrument of tyrrany in the future.

It is what is is. Bitcoin is first generation blockchain ledger technology that both by design and by culture and precedent is highly resistant to change. Maybe that will be good enough to maintain its lead in the market or maybe not.

One thing we can be almost certain will not happen is that it won't be resolved fast.

Just look at how slow this blocksize issue is progressing. In my opinion, fungibility is a way bigger issue in comparison with blocksize. I'd rather have a fungible blockchain that is constraint by blocksize than vice versa. If you think the blocksize issue sparked a heated debate, you are in for a surpise once this issue will spark a debate.

agreed. It is a WAY bigger issue. There was some comment in one of these threads that said "invest in the sector, not the product" or whatever. Funny thing is, to me, there are two sectors. One sector is actual digital money - Monero, due to its fungibility. The other sector are non-fungible cryptocurrency networks, which have their purpose. And honestly, I'm starting to think that some in the bitcoin camp are fine with the lack of fungibility, namely because it increases the value of whitelist coins.

[dEBRUYNE]

This is worrisome -> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3zrvs8/bitpay_is_actively_cooperating_with_chainalysis/

i`M really annoyed of this fungibility problem that bitcoin has, we should resolve this fast or bitcoin can become an instrument of tyrrany in the future.

It is what is is. Bitcoin is first generation blockchain ledger technology that both by design and by culture and precedent is highly resistant to change. Maybe that will be good enough to maintain its lead in the market or maybe not.

One thing we can be almost certain will not happen is that it won't be resolved fast.

Just look at how slow this blocksize issue is progressing. In my opinion, fungibility is a way bigger issue in comparison with blocksize. I'd rather have a fungible blockchain that is constraint by blocksize than vice versa. If you think the blocksize issue sparked a heated debate, you are in for a surpise once this issue will spark a debate.

agreed. It is a WAY bigger issue. There was some comment in one of these threads that said "invest in the sector, not the product" or whatever. Funny thing is, to me, there are two sectors. One sector is actual digital money - Monero, due to its fungibility. The other sector are non-fungible cryptocurrency networks, which have their purpose. And honestly, I'm starting to think that some in the bitcoin camp are fine with the lack of fungibility, namely because it increases the value of whitelist coins.

I think it was industry and firm, nevertheless an interesting comment and I somewhat agree with your extension on it. It is also kind of subjective, simply depends on how malleable a certain industry is in your own perspective.  

Not sure why the bolded would ever be a good thing. If less people are able to use it due to coins being tainted (and subsequently flagged), the premium on their whitelisted coins will quickly evaporate.

[GamingBro]

This is worrisome -> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3zrvs8/bitpay_is_actively_cooperating_with_chainalysis/

i`M really annoyed of this fungibility problem that bitcoin has, we should resolve this fast or bitcoin can become an instrument of tyrrany in the future.

What do you mean by "tyranny"?

[owm123]

This is worrisome -> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3zrvs8/bitpay_is_actively_cooperating_with_chainalysis/

i`M really annoyed of this fungibility problem that bitcoin has, we should resolve this fast or bitcoin can become an instrument of tyrrany in the future.

What do you mean by "tyranny"?

I think it refers to posiblity that validity of your transactions will be controlled by some third party companies/organisations, whether their are clean or tainted.

Andreas Antonopoulos says that fungibility issue must be address to reduce risk of such third party control. He explains:

"we really need to address the issue of fungibility.  Blacklists are inherently evil, as they seed control to the  author of the blacklist and that control is absolute.".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak1iojpiHpM&feature=youtu.be&t=33m6s

[aminorex]

Remarkably stable.  The contrast with IMF reserve currencies will become sharper over time.

[languagehasmeaning]

Andreas Antonopoulos says that fungibility issue must be address to reduce risk of such third party control. He explains:

"we really need to address the issue of fungibility.  Blacklists are inherently evil, as they seed control to the  author of the blacklist and that control is absolute.".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak1iojpiHpM&feature=youtu.be&t=33m6s

That is a great quote

[chennan]

I don't really know if there is a proposition for this kind of idea or not already... but what do you guys suggest the "cryptonote" or XMR community in general, should use as a platform to help ease the transition of cryptocurrencies in the real world monetary system? Do you think we need to have another form of ideology along with secure, anonymous transactions?  Even though "Anarchy" is a type of ideology, it really is pretty fague to me TBH... there is no real structure for how cities, institutions, etc. should be ran "by the people".  I feel if we had some common ground on a type of ideology we can all agree on, then the cause for XMR would seem to serve a bigger purpose than to just have really anonymous transactions in a capitalist/consumer world.

Just been pondering this recently and didn't know what you guys thought about it?

[ArticMine]

This is worrisome -> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3zrvs8/bitpay_is_actively_cooperating_with_chainalysis/

... as if the blocksize issue alone was not enough to worry.

[QuantumQrack]

This is worrisome -> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3zrvs8/bitpay_is_actively_cooperating_with_chainalysis/

i`M really annoyed of this fungibility problem that bitcoin has, we should resolve this fast or bitcoin can become an instrument of tyrrany in the future.

It is what is is. Bitcoin is first generation blockchain ledger technology that both by design and by culture and precedent is highly resistant to change. Maybe that will be good enough to maintain its lead in the market or maybe not.

One thing we can be almost certain will not happen is that it won't be resolved fast.

it will never be resolved, if it's this difficult to make the blocksize 2MB, then unlinkability or unraceability will never be added. it's too big of a change.

I asked Gavin back in 2011 about more anonymity in bitcoin, and he didn't seem interested at all.  Either he didn't understand the importance of fungibility (which is kind of related to anonymity) at the time, or maybe he still doesn't.  Needless to say, I started looking for other alternatives..eventually making my way to the Monero community.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

I asked Gavin back in 2011 about more anonymity in bitcoin, and he didn't seem interested at all.  Either he didn't understand the importance of fungibility (which is kind of related to anonymity) at the time, or maybe he still doesn't.  Needless to say, I started looking for other alternatives..eventually making my way to the Monero community.

I don't think fungibility in general was ever really talked about as a concern in bitcoin until quite recently. Fungibility as a result of privacy was rarely if ever discussed before Monero, and I don't think Monero's fungibility was even realized as a "feature" until months after it was released (I could be wrong...I don't feel like reading that far back in the thread.)

I want to say it was late 2014 when it really became clear that fungibility was the real goal...not simply privacy...and that's what distinguished XMR from all the other anon players of the time.