[XMR] Monero Speculation

[ArticMine]

Edit: The key is that USD cannot be both digital and private at the same time.

 
  
I hear you, but by your rules *nothing* can be digital and private at the same time, because simply by moving through a 'trusted third party' privacy is broken.  
  
I am arguing that the digital dollar is "private for all intents and purposes" with a disclaimer that nothing that isn't decentralized can ever truly be private, because it must pass through a trusted third party who can spy on you if they like.  
  
But for most of the population they are used to thinking of their dollars as private, and in some respects they are more private than bitcoin which has a totally public ledger.  But as I said, I agree that digital dollars are never truly private (nor is any asset stored by a trusted third party).  
  
I think the comparison holds as long as you make that very clear.  

Fungibility rather than privacy is the more critical issue here, unless the trusted third party creates a bearer and digital USD instrument. This however will likely run afoul of AML/KNC laws and regulations, so most digital USD instruments are not fungible and by my strict definition not private. Monero on the other hand is digital, private, fungible and legal!

I know some would say that bitUSD would qualify digital, private, fungible and legal but bitUSD is dependent on the BTS/USD rate staying above a certain threshold for the peg to hold.

[SolarSilver]

governments are not almighty.
they havent forbidden cash (ok some are trying to limit it)
they havent forbidden gold

as soon as an economy is using it, they want to tax it - and not forbid it

Try even traveling with more than EUR 1000 cash in France, for example through an airport: your money will be seized unless you can prove why need to carry such a 'crazy amount' on you. The police frequently seizes similar small sums of money during simple traffic checks. They seems to be pretty good at trying to limit it

And as for forbidding gold, governments never did that, right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

[MoneroMooo]

Reality check.


No matter how far anon tech goes the government can still fuck you if they want. Anon coins will never be legal tender so you will need to put fiat in and out and explain where that came from. Governments can't decrypt the tech but they can still control every place where you can exchange $ to BTC.

That's called progress. Lots of things just don't work, never catch on, or get crushed by the status quo. A few succeed, to varying extent. Many end up giving future innovations some degree of inspiration and building blocks. But the key is that, even though the odds are firmly against you, it only can ever work if you try.

[MoneroMooo]

Try even traveling with more than EUR 1000 cash in France, for example through an airport: your money will be seized unless you can prove why need to carry such a 'crazy amount' on you. The police frequently seizes similar small sums of money during simple traffic checks. They seems to be pretty good at trying to limit it

Aren't there highwaymen to protect travellers from such wanton crime ?

[Globb0]

Gold has been digitized. Everything's been digitized

Not really. A gold-linked or gold-backed derivative can be digitized. Physical gold can't.

Oh yeah then how do you think they teleport it then?

The digital dollar is digital but not private. It is also not decentralized.
The paper cash dollar is private but not digital. One can argue it is decentralized because once it is issued the US Government has no control over its use.

Its centralised because the paper note is just a promise, by someone (central). also they can devalue it or whatever they want (centrally) and what can you do about it?

[smoothie]

Reality check.


No matter how far anon tech goes the government can still fuck you if they want. Anon coins will never be legal tender so you will need to put fiat in and out and explain where that came from. Governments can't decrypt the tech but they can still control every place where you can exchange $ to BTC.


And also it's terrible for speculation as no serious trader would touch this stinky shit.



It's some form of fucked up dream-world you've made up for yourselves where you can talk about privacy and freedom trading nickels where the other libertarian sharing your views across the board will fuck you for a foot long sandwich.

Oh yeah? How do they regulate in-person transactions or better yet P2P trades?

 

Perhaps you should go back to your pump party where you pump the crap out of actual crap coins. In fact go pump dash so it can fall just that much harder in the end.

Thanks  

[smoothie]

Don't you understand? None of that will matter in a crypto currency based economy.

The only reason you need to deal with fiat now is because few accept crypto, and none pay crypto.

Think beyond 10 years. Think beyond 20.

A crypto currency based economy would still not be exempt from all laws. And if laws can't be imposed it will be illegal. And if it is illegal then you will see no 'crypto currency based economy'. Wake up.

You do realize that a cryptocurrency based economy can exist over borders and circumvent through government laws right?

[Quicken]

It's fair to say that a major source of the power of fiat, is that governments only accept their own fiat currency for the payment of taxes. In the short/medium term I see XMR as like a digital version of physical gold. Long term, who knows.

On another note, it's 10 million day today folks. 

[Fontas.]

Don't you understand? None of that will matter in a crypto currency based economy.

The only reason you need to deal with fiat now is because few accept crypto, and none pay crypto.

Think beyond 10 years. Think beyond 20.

A crypto currency based economy would still not be exempt from all laws. And if laws can't be imposed it will be illegal. And if it is illegal then you will see no 'crypto currency based economy'. Wake up.

governments are not almighty.
they havent forbidden cash (ok some are trying to limit it)
they havent forbidden gold

as soon as an economy is using it, they want to tax it - and not forbid it

In your utopia, do you honestly think governments are going to let a anonymous currency get traction in their country so it has the possibility of hurting the nations economy? Just because "they want to tax it"?

And don't give me that bullshit about cash because it is issued by governments.

[Fontas.]

Oh yeah? How do they regulate in-person transactions or better yet P2P trades?

 

Perhaps you should go back to your pump party where you pump the crap out of actual crap coins. In fact go pump dash so it can fall just that much harder in the end.

Thanks  

Take some time and think about the possibilites of that. No it's not necessarily about the transactions themselves.

I pump shitcoins fully aware that they are indeed shitcoins. Those who do not realize that are the real losers while pros like myself cash out. Then you can sit around and talk about unrealistic crap and how you "don't care about the price anyway".

Works out just fine for both of us.

[Fontas.]

Don't you understand? None of that will matter in a crypto currency based economy.

The only reason you need to deal with fiat now is because few accept crypto, and none pay crypto.

Think beyond 10 years. Think beyond 20.

A crypto currency based economy would still not be exempt from all laws. And if laws can't be imposed it will be illegal. And if it is illegal then you will see no 'crypto currency based economy'. Wake up.

You do realize that a cryptocurrency based economy can exist over borders and circumvent through government laws right?

This statement is dumb for so many reasons. There is a clear difference between circumvent and avoid. Don't you get that?

Any time you want to make significant purchase in real-life with your anon currency you are fucked. But by all means you can avoid that by living in your mothers basement.

[GingerAle]

Don't you understand? None of that will matter in a crypto currency based economy.

The only reason you need to deal with fiat now is because few accept crypto, and none pay crypto.

Think beyond 10 years. Think beyond 20.

A crypto currency based economy would still not be exempt from all laws. And if laws can't be imposed it will be illegal. And if it is illegal then you will see no 'crypto currency based economy'. Wake up.

You do realize that a cryptocurrency based economy can exist over borders and circumvent through government laws right?

This statement is dumb for so many reasons. There is a clear difference between circumvent and avoid. Don't you get that?

Any time you want to make significant purchase in real-life with your anon currency you are fucked. But by all means you can avoid that by living in your mothers basement.

all in all, semi-valid points, mainly if it was possible to turn off the internet.

ultimately though, i speculate that governments will allow this type of tech to persist the same reason they do many things - big corporations / banks will force them to. Once the business / banking world gets over their daydream of permissioned blockchains, they will realize the power of the decentralized ledger provided by cryptocurrencies. Due to its current size, they will first investigate bitcoin, then they will realize the inherent flaws of a transparent ledger, and hopefully by that time Monero is chugging along nicely and these companies will go "hello" and Monero will go "would you like some ring signatures?" and they will live happily ever after.

[nioc]

The mini sell bot has now been on for 3-4 days again as the price steadily climbs.  I think it's been ~3 days but my memory has recently been downgraded to only 2 categories.  It either happened or it didn't.  

Some hardfork code was just merged into master.

MoneroMooo's funding request is now live!
https://forum.getmonero.org/8/funding-required/2410/a-continuation-for-all-purpose-programming-of-what-needs-to-get-done-in-monero

[Globb0]

Don't you understand? None of that will matter in a crypto currency based economy.

The only reason you need to deal with fiat now is because few accept crypto, and none pay crypto.

Think beyond 10 years. Think beyond 20.

A crypto currency based economy would still not be exempt from all laws. And if laws can't be imposed it will be illegal. And if it is illegal then you will see no 'crypto currency based economy'. Wake up.

You do realize that a cryptocurrency based economy can exist over borders and circumvent through government laws right?

This statement is dumb for so many reasons. There is a clear difference between circumvent and avoid. Don't you get that?

Any time you want to make significant purchase in real-life with your anon currency you are fucked. But by all means you can avoid that by living in your mothers basement.

all in all, semi-valid points, mainly if it was possible to turn off the internet.

ultimately though, i speculate that governments will allow this type of tech to persist the same reason they do many things - big corporations / banks will force them to. Once the business / banking world gets over their daydream of permissioned blockchains, they will realize the power of the decentralized ledger provided by cryptocurrencies. Due to its current size, they will first investigate bitcoin, then they will realize the inherent flaws of a transparent ledger, and hopefully by that time Monero is chugging along nicely and these companies will go "hello" and Monero will go "would you like some ring signatures?" and they will live happily ever after.

Also the cost of "doing something about it" from a gov point of view. I work in the sector and there is not infinite funds. It has to be chosen what to do and scrutinised to the nth degree for clear and proportionate benefits.

[aminorex]

There is simply no way to prevent transactions in XMR unless you ban un-escrowed crypto.  That may happen in places like Russia or Saudi Arabia, but steganographic overlay networks will provide the facility for those who care about it.

Anyhow, there are still some effective constitutional protections and substantial political support for crypto in most of the world, so "governments will stop it" is just FUD, until that changes.

A greater concern is that "Fontas." is militating against the value of XMR.  This suggests someone may be accumulating for a pump-and-dump.  I sincerely hope they fail as badly as I expect them to fail.  Beware, pumpers:  XMR is the anti-ponzi.

In other news, I just started to like PMs.  It's a good point to start accumulating a long wheat position again.  Oil should continue down for a week.  China is the brightest spot in equities right now, remarkably, for the coming week.

Oh, and monkey thinks XBTUSD is going to trend up for a couple of hours, so XMRBTC should see a low before midnight GMT before continuing up as XBTUSD resumes a downtrend.

EDIT:  As he often does intraday XBT, monkey just changed his mind and is now bearish XBTUSD intraday.  I should just give up on his intraday crypto calls for good and all.

[dEBRUYNE]

The mini sell bot has now been on for 3-4 days again as the price steadily climbs.  I think it's been ~3 days but my memory has recently been downgraded to only 2 categories.  It either happened or it didn't.  

Some hardfork code was just merged into master.

MoneroMooo's funding request is now live!
https://forum.getmonero.org/8/funding-required/2410/a-continuation-for-all-purpose-programming-of-what-needs-to-get-done-in-monero

It took a little breather last night, but it seems like it's on again. Anyway, it's not selling that aggressively (approximately 5 XMR per minute) so I don't mind. Rather this than those large dumps.

[mmortal03]

Is there a way to top up without going via BTC ?

CNY on BTER

OTC for some sort of fiat (or non-BTC crypto) payment

EDIT: Poloniex XMR pairs, including vs. USDT. (Thanks macsga, I forgot those.)

If you want to buy a fixed USD amount of moneroj, one option that I've been considering is using Circle's USD-denominated account feature to send a USD amount of bitcoins to Shapeshift, that way I don't ever have to think about the price in bitcoins.  The drawback with doing it this way is that you aren't requesting a specific amount of moneroj on Shapeshift, so you aren't going to get the best exchange rate that they offer.

[smooth]

The mini sell bot has now been on for 3-4 days again as the price steadily climbs.  I think it's been ~3 days but my memory has recently been downgraded to only 2 categories.  It either happened or it didn't.  

Some hardfork code was just merged into master.

MoneroMooo's funding request is now live!
https://forum.getmonero.org/8/funding-required/2410/a-continuation-for-all-purpose-programming-of-what-needs-to-get-done-in-monero

It took a little breather last night, but it seems like it's on again. Anyway, it's not selling that aggressively (approximately 5 XMR per minute) so I don't mind. Rather this than those large dumps.

5 XMR per minute if continuous is a pretty good clip. That's more than half of the mining rate.

[dEBRUYNE]

The mini sell bot has now been on for 3-4 days again as the price steadily climbs.  I think it's been ~3 days but my memory has recently been downgraded to only 2 categories.  It either happened or it didn't.  

Some hardfork code was just merged into master.

MoneroMooo's funding request is now live!
https://forum.getmonero.org/8/funding-required/2410/a-continuation-for-all-purpose-programming-of-what-needs-to-get-done-in-monero

It took a little breather last night, but it seems like it's on again. Anyway, it's not selling that aggressively (approximately 5 XMR per minute) so I don't mind. Rather this than those large dumps.

5 XMR per minute if continuous is a pretty good clip. That's more than half of the mining rate.

Agree, but it could very well be that he/she/it accumulated this earlier and is just selling off now. Furthermore, I've only seen it active twice now this week and haven't seen it active before that.

[iCEBREAKER]

Don't you understand? None of that will matter in a crypto currency based economy.

The only reason you need to deal with fiat now is because few accept crypto, and none pay crypto.

Think beyond 10 years. Think beyond 20.

A crypto currency based economy would still not be exempt from all laws. And if laws can't be imposed it will be illegal. And if it is illegal then you will see no 'crypto currency based economy'. Wake up.

governments are not almighty.
they havent forbidden cash (ok some are trying to limit it)
they havent forbidden gold

as soon as an economy is using it, they want to tax it - and not forbid it

In your utopia, do you honestly think governments are going to let a anonymous currency get traction in their country so it has the possibility of hurting the nations economy? Just because "they want to tax it"?

And don't give me that bullshit about cash because it is issued by governments.

A government will "let an anonymous currency get traction in their country" in order to forestall a revolution and ensuing regime change.

In Wences Casares' scenario, the first country to defect from the petro-dollar world order and adopt crypto is one that has *ALREADY* been damaged beyond repair by fiat and central banking.

By taking a chance on crypto e-cash, a devastated basket-case economy like Bolivia, Haiti, Ukraine, Venezuela, or Argentina has nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Once a national currency offers/approximates the safe harbor guarantees of Bitcoin/Monero, others will fall in line like dominoes as Gresham's Law penalizes late movers and lavishly rewards first defectors.