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Author Topic: KanoPool since 2014 🐈 - PPLNS and Solo 0.5% fee - Worldwide - 2436 blocks  (Read 5350285 times)
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Crispyato
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March 21, 2016, 05:25:59 AM
 #13081

I just read your reply nhando.  Don't take it personally, I'm glad for the big pushes.  They have come through on some slow days.  I'm just pushing for some steady pushes and if you can gradually ramp down on exit I think it might be good. You could test it and see if there is a difference.  I would if I had the coin.   You have come through a ton, so know I appreciate you and your partners.   I'm just a small player anyway.   I just expressed my opinion without filter because I'd like to know what everyone thinks.  I tend to question everything and I felt my therioes needed questioning as well. Especially therioes based solely on observation of results.  I figured Kano or CK would chime in somewhere with a knowledge bomb.   I do believe from seeing the hashrate spikes we would rock out holding 35PH.  I mean we were killing it there steady before the block withholding stuff Kano had to handle the bad luck weekend. 
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March 21, 2016, 05:30:20 AM
 #13082

i understand where thedreamer is coming from..
back last year.. when i was making .04-.05 a block, we would get those days where you would get 2, 3 or even 4 blocks a day and mine WHOLE weeks worth of bitcoin in one day.. it was a huge amount.
it seems now we are expecting those blocks just to break even..

but its not all the pool speed.. the difficulty has doubled since then. so if it wasnt for the increased pool speed we would be worse off.



But thats Just Variance. When we were at 1.X PH/s i remember a week where there would be no payout at all, then another with very low payout vs estimate. It's true we get smaller upswing now, but thats because we get smaller downswing as well.

If what you want is high variance, then with Kano having grown several time in % vs difficulty will indeed feel off.

I'm guess the small lottery effect feeling subsided now, and some people are missing the thrill. Not sure why some are getting personal over it, however.


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March 21, 2016, 05:40:30 AM
 #13083

i understand where thedreamer is coming from..
back last year.. when i was making .04-.05 a block, we would get those days where you would get 2, 3 or even 4 blocks a day and mine WHOLE weeks worth of bitcoin in one day.. it was a huge amount.
it seems now we are expecting those blocks just to break even..

but its not all the pool speed.. the difficulty has doubled since then. so if it wasnt for the increased pool speed we would be worse off.



But thats Just Variance. When we were at 1.X PH/s i remember a week where there would be no payout at all, then another with very low payout vs estimate. It's true we get smaller upswing now, but thats because we get smaller downswing as well.

If what you want is high variance, then with Kano having grown several time in % vs difficulty will indeed feel off.

I'm guess the small lottery effect feeling subsided now, and some people are missing the thrill. Not sure why some are getting personal over it, however.

yep no reason to get personal..

bitcoin mining is changing. im really excited to see what happens in the next few months..

miners will have to adjust.. pools will have to change.. some think the price of bitcoin will go up to compensate.. but im not completely sold on that happening..
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March 21, 2016, 05:55:57 AM
 #13084

I just read your reply nhando.  Don't take it personally, I'm glad for the big pushes.  They have come through on some slow days.  I'm just pushing for some steady pushes and if you can gradually ramp down on exit I think it might be good. You could test it and see if there is a difference.  I would if I had the coin.   You have come through a ton, so know I appreciate you and your partners.   I'm just a small player anyway.   I just expressed my opinion without filter because I'd like to know what everyone thinks.  I tend to question everything and I felt my therioes needed questioning as well. Especially therioes based solely on observation of results.  I figured Kano or CK would chime in somewhere with a knowledge bomb.   I do believe from seeing the hashrate spikes we would rock out holding 35PH.  I mean we were killing it there steady before the block withholding stuff Kano had to handle the bad luck weekend.  

Unfortunately luck is luck.  Doesn't matter if we're at 15PH or 50PH.  All it would do is statistically reduce the length of time between a painful long block.  However what is more important is, whether your pool infrastructure is ready for the massive growth?  There is a reason why Kano wants to keep his pool within a certain network size.  What is needed to support 20PH is not the same at 200PH.  Look at Antpool, the refresh on the site is usually about 15-25 mins delay on each block.  Quite frankly I'm not even certain if Kano was prepared for this explosive growth we had going from 5PH in Dec to 40PH in just 4 months.  That's 800% growth!!  It's hard to predict that type of growth.  There is no perfect pool, I don't care what anyone says.  There will always be features that 1 person want vs another and no pool can satisfy everyone.  Quite frankly a manual payout system may work well when you're managing a small pool but it's definitely not the best system when you're much larger.  I was definitely not happy when everyone's pay was held for so long due to some investigation delay on some portion of small crappy miners.  Some may not care as their payout is small, but when you're running a big operation, you need consistency.   With growth there will also be lots of other issues that comes with it (hardware upgrade, servers getting overloaded, network issues, DDOS attack etc).  Planned growth is good, unexpected boom may cause more harm then good.  Now I don't know what the staffing requirement is from 5PH to 40 to 100, etc.  What I can see recently with all this growth is more frequent restarts for upgrades and code changes.  Kano have to deal with crap miners that consumed his entire day, etc.  You also see extra investments in more proxy servers, dealing with issues on disconnects, etc.  It can be a lot of work and plenty of things can go wrong or is not planned for.

This is why I say it's entirely "my opinion", no technical proof behind it, but it seems like the pool was operating much more efficient when it was around 25PH.  When my partners and I were pushing the pool to 40PH with our 7500TH to get us thru them nasty long duration,  Zach's tool would alert me 5mins on the block and I had to wait 5 mins until it was shown on Kano.is.  It was never like that before as it was always instant.  There's other things I noticed on certain delays and stuff, but it's not significant enough to cause concern.   Luck is luck, doesn't matter if the pool is at 10 PH or 100PH, it all boils down to how long you're willing to wait for the nastiest long block duration which only gets worst with higher difficulties.  However I rather take no growth then growth that is not well planned in advance.  Outages, disconnects, or orphans can get very expensive.   That orphan we recently had was super super expensive during that dry spell where every block count.

P.S I never take anything personal so don't worry about that.  Everyone is entitled to their opinions.  I just prefer to states the facts when I can and highlight where it's my own personal opinions.

Just "Mining" my own business.
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March 21, 2016, 06:08:08 AM
 #13085

I agree with both of your last comments Aaaron:).  I'm not sold on the increase yet either, I hope supply and demand would yield a higher price.  I think adoption and use need more evolving for it to compensate fully.  If it can just hit $600 I think traders would profit and that added adoption would follow.  I'm not sure the halving event alone would do the trick.
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March 21, 2016, 06:29:52 AM
 #13086

Nahndo, I don't think the issues your condsidering reflect Kano or the server being able to handle the 35PH load.  I think only Kano or CK can attest to the capabilities of the pool.  I do think the fact that 35PH was added to this thread title is a good indicator the pool can handle that weight.  I don't think anybody was happy that stuff had to be dealt with.  It was dealt with pretty well though.  I literally lost my whole mining operation when slush was under this attack for months so I understand what it's like to take a hit.  Needing to cash out in time for power bill alone needs to be done timely to stay afloat.   I think this pool can kill at 35PH.  I know when it hits 35PH all miners are still hitting top speed and we hit mad blocks there...  Feels like the ride is smooth at 35PH to me.  Luck is luck.  Sometimes you have to push your luck.  If it was all luck we would all be mining solo.  Increasing pool speed increases the chances for more lucky days or no one would rental boost at all.  5nd or not..
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March 21, 2016, 06:42:51 AM
 #13087

Nahndo, I don't think the issues your condsidering reflect Kano or the server being able to handle the 35PH load. 
The hardware that the pool is on could easily handle the entire bitcoin network hashrate if it needed to with the current pool code. The database code less than that but Kano's always working on it and that never interferes with mining.

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March 21, 2016, 08:22:59 AM
Last edit: March 21, 2016, 08:43:37 AM by kano
 #13088

Unfortunately luck is luck.  Doesn't matter if we're at 15PH or 50PH.  All it would do is statistically reduce the length of time between a painful long block.  However what is more important is, whether your pool infrastructure is ready for the massive growth?  There is a reason why Kano wants to keep his pool within a certain network size.  What is needed to support 20PH is not the same at 200PH.  Look at Antpool, the refresh on the site is usually about 15-25 mins delay on each block.  Quite frankly I'm not even certain if Kano was prepared for this explosive growth we had going from 5PH in Dec to 40PH in just 4 months.  That's 800% growth!!  It's hard to predict that type of growth.  There is no perfect pool, I don't care what anyone says.  There will always be features that 1 person want vs another and no pool can satisfy everyone.  Quite frankly a manual payout system may work well when you're managing a small pool but it's definitely not the best system when you're much larger.  I was definitely not happy when everyone's pay was held for so long due to some investigation delay on some portion of small crappy miners.  Some may not care as their payout is small, but when you're running a big operation, you need consistency.   With growth there will also be lots of other issues that comes with it (hardware upgrade, servers getting overloaded, network issues, DDOS attack etc).  Planned growth is good, unexpected boom may cause more harm then good.  Now I don't know what the staffing requirement is from 5PH to 40 to 100, etc.  What I can see recently with all this growth is more frequent restarts for upgrades and code changes.  Kano have to deal with crap miners that consumed his entire day, etc.  You also see extra investments in more proxy servers, dealing with issues on disconnects, etc.  It can be a lot of work and plenty of things can go wrong or is not planned for.
Based on current CPU, current CKDB code limit performance on the current hardware is probably about 6x the current pool i.e. about 180PHs
However, when we hit 40PH the CPU increase wasn't linear, is was less than that, so I'd expect the current CKDB code wouldn't be an issue until around 200PH or more.

As -ck mentioned above, that's unrelated to mining as such.
-ck's ckpool mining code could indeed handle EHs mining on the current hardware.

There are issues if CKDB got to that limit on the current code, but I also know exactly where those issues are and that is the next priority change.
I've had quite a few changes I've been working on since I last made the comment about when I'd work on that, but they have indeed been related to the security of the pool since it has grown, not the size of the pool in performance.

I certainly don't think the fact that I've detected a miner that has withheld blocks and earned 46BTC as trivial.
In fact you will find there is no other pool that has done that so early, before.
Slushs's withholding was picked up at the absolute minimum after throwing away 250BTC to the miner.
I suspect it was a lot more than that.
You also need to consider how long a miner takes to mine 10+ blocks ... to get an idea of at the least, how long it was going on before he detected it ...

The manual payout system is not like I sit there and type numbers into a spreadsheet or something like that.
It's simply that I manually run the pool security checks and payout generation scripts, that at the end, produce each payout transaction.
I then simply run each transaction script I've generated once the block is mature.
The security checks I run, at least daily, usually more often, I guarantee are well beyond anything you will find any other pool does.

The delay that occurred was to work out what was going on with the withholding, add code changes to CKDB and determine if I should put a hold on which accounts.
Yes the total saved ended up being less than 10BTC, but the changes are in place already so I can now check that easily.
... and of course if I just let it got on, that would have been, with the current belligerents, at least 10BTC a week ... until it grew due to no intervention.

I've processed more than 20TB of share history (yes I have every share logged ...) and generated a database history of all shares over 1G since February last year (I'll do the previous 5 months back to when the pool started some other time)
CKDB now records them all individually (>=1G) now searchable in the DB so I can run miner performance stats even on block ranges.
(of course CKDB has shift summarised stats of all shares, but this is all the actual individual shares >=1G share diff)
I use SQL to do this so that it doesn't affect CKDB, since the miner share history is, of course, now over 18 months of data - all in the DB, but CKDB doesn't load it all into RAM, only recent history, since it doesn't need to know more than a few weeks of history.
I have, as I've stated before, already had normal block withholding data available, just nothing at this low level to detect it way earlier, that no other pool has done before now.

Quote
This is why I say it's entirely "my opinion", no technical proof behind it, but it seems like the pool was operating much more efficient when it was around 25PH.  When my partners and I were pushing the pool to 40PH with our 7500TH to get us thru them nasty long duration,  Zach's tool would alert me 5mins on the block and I had to wait 5 mins until it was shown on Kano.is. It was never like that before as it was always instant.  
Sorry, that's not quite correct ...
The web site on the pool shows blocks immediately after they are found and will always do that before anything else on the planet, except under one condition:
That one condition is during a CKDB restart.

That's currently about once every 3 days at the moment (and there'll be another one in the next 4-6 hours)
That has no effect on mining, only on web/API access.

There's only been one block recently that I recall being during a restart - and yes if the web site data isn't available at that time due to a CKDB restart, indeed you will have to wait for the restart to complete, to see it.
If Zach is using kano.is to get that data, you'll never see it there before here.
If he is using some other source to get that data by analysing a local bitcoind, then the only time he'll know about it before the kano.is web site will know about it is during a CKDB restart.

Quote
There's other things I noticed on certain delays and stuff, but it's not significant enough to cause concern.   Luck is luck, doesn't matter if the pool is at 10 PH or 100PH, it all boils down to how long you're willing to wait for the nastiest long block duration which only gets worst with higher difficulties.  However I rather take no growth then growth that is not well planned in advance.  Outages, disconnects, or orphans can get very expensive.   That orphan we recently had was super super expensive during that dry spell where every block count.

P.S I never take anything personal so don't worry about that.  Everyone is entitled to their opinions.  I just prefer to states the facts when I can and highlight where it's my own personal opinions.
That orphan we got was almost unavoidable.
The timing was a couple hundred milliseconds.
We have already recently won an orphan race where we were not first to release the block, but due to our connectivity we were able to get the larger pools to work off our block rather than the other pool's block.
In the recent orphan case we lost, I suspect it was a solo miner in china, or a small not yet well known pool in china, who pushed their block to the chinese pools so it took longer to get to us.

Remember, orphans are random just like everything else, and the pool's history shows it is doing way better than the other pools.
3 orphans (and 1 stale I flagged as an orphan) in 668 blocks.

One recent orphan block, that being less than 46BTC, and certainly less than 250BTC Smiley

... and FYI ... I don't mind you posting that and I'll not delete such posts, but I will make corrections as I've posted to state pool facts Smiley

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March 21, 2016, 12:32:20 PM
 #13089

... and that restart I mentioned above Smiley

CKDB restart coming up.
NO miners will be affected.
Web page/API will be down for less than 10 minutes - hopefully Smiley
The down time is related to when I do the restart, so it should be quick if the shift summarisation is soon after the hour.

Will be in about 25-30 minutes around 10-15 past 12:10/15 UTC
When the next shift summarisation completes.
CKDB Restart was from 12:21 to 12:29 - completed.
Just a few minor updates.
One being that I can see one set of previously missing event data on a web page so I can more easily track down if there are early user web blocks happening (i.e. is there a bug) in the handling of the valid access limits

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March 21, 2016, 02:45:22 PM
 #13090

I think nhando was giving a for instance and wasn't meaning that he comes and goes and throws 5PH here (I might be wrong though). I'm sure I saw a post where he says he occasionally does some rentals and the 5TH was for another user in kind
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March 21, 2016, 06:53:35 PM
 #13091

I'm pretty sure nhando's hash will go away on occasion when people at Nicehash are paying WAY too much.  Outside of super awesome luck here he'll earn far more doing that (especially if he waits until something like at least 10% premium over what they should be paying).  So he'd hash over there earning more and then move back when people start paying more reasonable prices.

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March 21, 2016, 07:22:24 PM
 #13092

His hashrate fluctuates 0-5PH throughout the day pretty wildy.  If he is renting out at nice hash that could make Kano a nice springboard to ramp up prices.  Boost some blocks, chat up renting, maybe drive up price and switch to making money off the renters. Renting has been unprofitable as of late.   That is entirely  speculation.  Generally you lose money hoping pools,  unless there is a trick. Kano, does the large surge and drop negatively affect the pool ?  It seems like it does,  but I would ask you to confirm the observation is not just coincidence.   
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March 21, 2016, 07:31:26 PM
 #13093

Kano,

Would it be possible to have more than 4 workers displayed on the shift graph (https://kano.is/index.php?k=usperf) ?

I know I can use wildcards, exemple .S5* will show a line representing the sum of all my workers starting with .S5


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March 21, 2016, 07:33:21 PM
 #13094

His hashrate fluctuates 0-5PH throughout the day pretty wildy.  If he is renting out at nice hash that could make Kano a nice springboard to ramp up prices.  Boost some blocks, chat up renting, maybe drive up price and switch to making money off the renters. Renting has been unprofitable as of late.   That is entirely  speculation.  Generally you lose money hoping pools,  unless there is a trick. Kano, does the large surge and drop negatively affect the pool ?  It seems like it does,  but I would ask you to confirm the observation is not just coincidence.   

I have the same thought. Wouldn't change my commitment here, regardless, because my analyses of three pools' performance over a period of time still shows this one to be the most profitable/stable. We are very small, own our gear, and don't pay for power...so not representative, probably. Our planned max output given the power reserve would presently be about 15Th, and we're at 3.9 now with our first S7 arriving today. For me the point is mostly curiosity.

To infinity and beyond...on two 741s and one of only 3...nope, make that 4...full nodes in Hawaii...on <30A. (I have other gear on the Hoth ice planet)
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March 21, 2016, 08:01:09 PM
 #13095

does the large surge and drop negatively affect the pool ? 
No

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March 21, 2016, 08:12:10 PM
 #13096

Generally you lose money hoping pools,  unless there is a trick. Kano, does the large surge and drop negatively affect the pool ?  It seems like it does,  but I would ask you to confirm the observation is not just coincidence.   

you dont really lose any money hopping pools.. you get paid for the shares you submit.. all you are doing is transferring between pools..
the only way you can lose, is if for some reason the pool doesnt find a block before your 5n shares run out.. which could happen..
firetreeactual
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March 21, 2016, 08:14:08 PM
 #13097

does the large surge and drop negatively affect the pool ? 
No
Thanks.

To infinity and beyond...on two 741s and one of only 3...nope, make that 4...full nodes in Hawaii...on <30A. (I have other gear on the Hoth ice planet)
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March 21, 2016, 08:17:17 PM
 #13098

does the large surge and drop negatively affect the pool ? 
No
Good deal.  Sounds like the pool can handle whatever you throw at it.
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March 21, 2016, 09:12:46 PM
 #13099

(especially if he waits until something like at least 10% premium over what they should be paying).

FWIW - in my experience anything less than +25% over market isn't worth profit switching for.  While the number of gains/losses for profit switching should (in theory) even out, it rarely worked that way for me when I was switching below 25%.  Far more often than not I would have been better off here (I tracked the differences while profit switching for several months in 2015).  I'm not sure why it worked that way, but it did.  Today I have my 6 miners set to switch over one at a time at +30% (1.1 TH), +35% (1.1 TH), +40% (1.1 TH), +50% (1.1 TH), +60% (3.8TH), and +100% (3.9TH).  I figure that if someone wants all of my hash that much (+100% -- and it has happened twice now) then I'll bite.  Otherwise, I would rather be mining here.  Only once in the past few months have I ever switched them over lower than those figures, and that was because the spread between LRP and the paying rate was >20%, so I was able to rent back the same hash rate (to point at Kano.is) as I was selling for a virtual 20% bonus.  That was a very unusual situation that rarely happens though.

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March 21, 2016, 09:55:28 PM
 #13100

Kano,

Would it be possible to have more than 4 workers displayed on the shift graph (https://kano.is/index.php?k=usperf) ?

I know I can use wildcards, exemple .S5* will show a line representing the sum of all my workers starting with .S5


Yeah I only put 4 there coz of available space.
I could add another 4..59 below the graph - I set the absolute limit currently to 63 in the code.
Just have to pick 59 more colours that work together Tongue

OK, added 4 more random pastel colours below the graph.

Pool: https://kano.is - low 0.5% fee PPLNS 3 Days - Most reliable Solo with ONLY 0.5% fee   Bitcointalk thread: Forum
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The ONLY active original developer of cgminer. Original master git: https://github.com/kanoi/cgminer
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