[ANN] NeuCoin - Easy to use, free to try, focused on micropayments - Official

[scam confirmed]

also if there were 1m nokoin users, with 500k blocks per/yr, would that make it harder for minnows to stake?

Yes.

[rizzlarolla]

also if there were 1m nokoin users, with 500k blocks per/yr, would that make it harder for minnows to stake?

Yes.

Is that because ONE million into HALF million doesn't go?

[scam confirmed]

Is that because ONE million into HALF million doesn't go?

It's because a limited number of blocks would be spread over a vast number of users.

[rizzlarolla]

Is that because ONE million into HALF million doesn't go?

It's because a limited number of blocks would be spread over a vast number of users.

hey scam,
You just answered me with 16 words when, I think, 1 would have done?- YES 
(I expected 1! Have you been reading too much nokoin jargon lately?)

Thanks for the figures, they're about the best we got.

The WP says,
"in abandoning time-weight, NeuCoin chose the benefit of higher security at a cost
of creating small advantages for large miners over smaller miners,"

How does this compounding effect play out, over say 5yrs
As the whale gets proportionally richer than the minnow, does that in itself make it even harder for said minnow to stake?

[LOrrav]

scam confirmed
we/ I need a figure for a "whale" please,

Initial capital                                 Final capital (after 1 year)                                       Effective annual interest rate
100 $                                              196.86                                                                        109.36 %
1,000 $                                           2321.41                                                                      144.65 %
10,000 $                                         23723.42                                                                    149.74 %
100,000 $                                       237766.63                                                                  150.28 %
1,000,000 $                                    2378201.11                                                                150.33 %

The $100 guy can always join a mining pool, which would even out his percentage a lot

[scam confirmed]

The WP says,
"in abandoning time-weight, NeuCoin chose the benefit of higher security at a cost
of creating small advantages for large miners over smaller miners,"

How does this compounding effect play out, over say 5yrs

Compound interest is the rich NoKoiner's best friend, and the poor NoKoiner's worst enemy. But you don't have to take my word for it:

"Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it, earns it … he who doesn’t … pays it." [Albert Einstein]

As the whale gets proportionally richer than the minnow, does that in itself make it even harder for said minnow to stake?

Yes.

The $100 guy can always join a mining pool, which would even out his percentage a lot

... which will result in some of the same issues that Bitcoin PoW mining has:

A second, widely recognized drawback of PoW mining is its tendency to become centralized. In Bitcoin’s early years, when Bitcoins had little value, mining was highly decentralized among tens of thousands of individuals using consumer-grade computers - and this true peer-to-peer nature was considered one of Bitcoin’s core benefits. Today, this is changing.

First came mining pools, in which large numbers of miners combine resources and share mining awards in order to receive frequent, predictable payments rather than waiting and hoping for a single large award. The largest pools have already breached the point of having a majority of the network’s computing power, where they would have the capability of seriously harming the network. Second, hobbyist and small-scale miners have been getting knocked out of business, pool or no pool.
...
Centralization of PoW mining is problematic for several reasons. First, centralization of mining power represents a severe security risk. Any entity (or entities working together) that controls 51% or more of the network’s computing power can seriously harm the network. Second, when there are only a few, highly-capitalized entities that control the network, the entire network becomes susceptible to government control and regulation of these few entities.

NoKoin is the combination of PoW disadvantages and PoS disadvantages.

[Gekko463]

Economics lessons from 13 year olds (who had their lunch money stolen by DanK):

http://forum.neucoin.org/t/break-down-of-greece-banking-system-and-co-relations-to-neucoin/1290

[rizzlarolla]

Economics lessons from 13 year olds (who had their lunch money stolen by DanK):

http://forum.neucoin.org/t/break-down-of-greece-banking-system-and-co-relations-to-neucoin/1290

http://forum.neucoin.org/t/the-neucoin-presale-is-over-thank-you/870/8

Ahhhh @gekko4631 - that's where you're wrong - I may be a minor, but I've done my research.

I found scraps of it on the web from trustworthy sites, and the rest of it I learned whilst studying Business, Business Economics and Law in school.

Finally @gekko4631, the investments that people make on this site are not "dodgy", but if you think that, you shouldn't be on these forums - they were made for people who own, care about, and want to help NeuCoin GROW AND EVOLVE. I get the impression that you are not here to do that, but rather to put people off NeuCoin, and I would appreciate it if you kept thoughts about the fact that you think NeuCoin is a scam to yourself. Thank you.

From BTC2YouDank4Free

[jonald_fyookball]

Economics lessons from 13 year olds (who had their lunch money stolen by DanK):

http://forum.neucoin.org/t/break-down-of-greece-banking-system-and-co-relations-to-neucoin/1290

http://forum.neucoin.org/t/the-neucoin-presale-is-over-thank-you/870/8

Ahhhh @gekko4631 - that's where you're wrong - I may be a minor, but I've done my research.

I found scraps of it on the web from trustworthy sites, and the rest of it I learned whilst studying Business, Business Economics and Law in school.

Finally @gekko4631, the investments that people make on this site are not "dodgy", but if you think that, you shouldn't be on these forums - they were made for people who own, care about, and want to help NeuCoin GROW AND EVOLVE. I get the impression that you are not here to do that, but rather to put people off NeuCoin, and I would appreciate it if you kept thoughts about the fact that you think NeuCoin is a scam to yourself. Thank you.

From BTC2YouDank4Free

funny quotes from this kid:

stop doubting the NeuCoin team - it isn't a scam - if it was, the whole thing would be down by now cos the feds would somehow get involved

That's why I don't have 0.1 BTC to invest - I have recently put a relatively large deposit (0.01 BTC) in to the faucet

And here's an interesting quote I found from another thread...Everyone who invested in Neucoin should take this to heart:

Stop desperately hoping that you can be an early adopter in a massively rising successful altcoin, it isn't going to happen.

[TibanneCat]

funny quotes from this kid:

stop doubting the NeuCoin team - it isn't a scam - if it was, the whole thing would be down by now cos the feds would somehow get involved

That's why I don't have 0.1 BTC to invest - I have recently put a relatively large deposit (0.01 BTC) in to the faucet

and this kid is a nokoin forum moderator 
this shitcoin turns into a bigger joke by the day

[LOrrav]

The WP says,
"in abandoning time-weight, NeuCoin chose the benefit of higher security at a cost
of creating small advantages for large miners over smaller miners,"

How does this compounding effect play out, over say 5yrs

Compound interest is the rich NoKoiner's best friend, and the poor NoKoiner's worst enemy. But you don't have to take my word for it:

"Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it, earns it … he who doesn’t … pays it." [Albert Einstein]

As the whale gets proportionally richer than the minnow, does that in itself make it even harder for said minnow to stake?

Yes.

The $100 guy can always join a mining pool, which would even out his percentage a lot

... which will result in some of the same issues that Bitcoin PoW mining has:

A second, widely recognized drawback of PoW mining is its tendency to become centralized. In Bitcoin’s early years, when Bitcoins had little value, mining was highly decentralized among tens of thousands of individuals using consumer-grade computers - and this true peer-to-peer nature was considered one of Bitcoin’s core benefits. Today, this is changing.

First came mining pools, in which large numbers of miners combine resources and share mining awards in order to receive frequent, predictable payments rather than waiting and hoping for a single large award. The largest pools have already breached the point of having a majority of the network’s computing power, where they would have the capability of seriously harming the network. Second, hobbyist and small-scale miners have been getting knocked out of business, pool or no pool.
...
Centralization of PoW mining is problematic for several reasons. First, centralization of mining power represents a severe security risk. Any entity (or entities working together) that controls 51% or more of the network’s computing power can seriously harm the network. Second, when there are only a few, highly-capitalized entities that control the network, the entire network becomes susceptible to government control and regulation of these few entities.

NoKoin is the combination of PoW disadvantages and PoS disadvantages.

I don't believe Neucoin will have the centralization problems that Bitcoin has. Unless I'm mistaken, in a PoS coin, like Neucoin, you have to transfer your balance to the pool in order for it to mine for you. For someone with $100, this isn't such a big deal, but someone with $10K would have to worry about the security implications of doing this. It would be akin to leaving your balance "on the exchange", which many people have been burned by.

So, the little guy trades security for earning a lot of extra compounded interest by joining the pool.  However, the whales, and I use that term loosely, holding more than around $1K, would rationally keep their coins under their own control, since they can earn almost the maximum compounded interest by themselves and the risk of losing their coins in someone else's hands isn't worth it.

So, then, the number of holders of $1K or more independently mining will keep centralization from happening.

Compare this against the huge centralization flaw that bitcoin has right now, where only 3 miners are necessary to collude to run a 51% attack! (From here you can see that it would only take 3 of the biggest miners to collude to reach 51%: https://blockchain.info/pools). Due to economies of scale, this can and will eventually occur with any PoW coin that currently exists, and is the reason the future of PoW is not too bright right now.

---

BTW, what is the problem with coinage the way Neucoin implements it? I have no idea why it is, according to jonald, "broken".

[jonald_fyookball]

confusion abounds.

lorrav, you're confused/misinformed on almost every point here.

Pool participants never send their funds to pools and  Bitcoin pools are less centralized than they were a year ago.  

Coinage as used by peercoin is a broken idea because if you're trying to attack the network by broadcasting your own chain and your chain isn't accepted, the next time you try, you'll have even more chances to succeed because now your coins got older.  Plus it makes long range attacks easier. As far as I know, neucoin isn't going to go that route.  

[LOrrav]

confusion abounds.

lorrav, you're confused/misinformed on almost every point here.

Pool participants never send their funds to pools and  Bitcoin pools are less centralized than they were a year ago.  

Coinage as used by peercoin is a broken idea because if you're trying to attack the network by broadcasting your own chain and your chain isn't accepted, the next time you try, you'll have even more chances to succeed because now your coins got older.  Plus it makes long range attacks easier. As far as I know, neucoin isn't going to go that route.  

In Neucoin, you'd have to send your coins to the pool. How else are they going to mine with them? I know that in Bitcoin it doesn't work that way.

You didn't really refute any of my points, here.

[scam confirmed]

I don't believe Neucoin will have the centralization problems that Bitcoin has.

Neither do I. It’s worse already. https://i.imgur.com/jvo1jBw.jpg

Unless I'm mistaken, in a PoS coin, like Neucoin, you have to transfer your balance to the pool in order for it to mine for you.

And that is a problem. Centralized hot wallets are a real gold mine for hackers. That’s why exchanges usually keep most of their customer's coins in cold storage. But this isn’t possible for a PoS minting Pool, because PoS coins must always stay online in order to mint. Furthermore, if huge amounts of PoS coins get stolen, it will not only harm the people who got stolen. It will potentially also harm the security of the whole network. Ever heard about the Vericoin/MintPal hack? http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-protected-vericoin-stolen-mintpal-wallet-breach/

Legitimate crypto communities always invoice people to not hold their coins in centralized hot wallets (and exchanges as well of course). But NoKoin’s hyperinflation even encourages people to permanently do so. NoKoin retards even believe it‘s „absolutely necessary for mainstream adoption“. Once people lose their coins they might even leave cryto as a whole telling others about all the scams and how risky crypto is . This is rather going to hurt mainstream adoption than to help it.

For someone with $100, this isn't such a big deal, but someone with $10K would have to worry about the security implications of doing this. So, the little guy trades security for earning a lot of extra compounded interest by joining the pool.  However, the whales, and I use that term loosely, holding more than around $1K, would rationally keep their coins under their own control, since they can earn almost the maximum compounded interest by themselves and the risk of losing their coins in someone else's hands isn't worth it.

So, then, the number of holders of $1K or more independently mining will keep centralization from happening.

I disagree. First up, $100 might not be „such a big deal“ for you. But it certainly is a big deal for others.

Second point is, there is only „extra compounded interest“ for people who receive a higher compunded interest rate than the overall inflation rate. In order to achieve this using solo-minting, you must not only have enough coins. Even more importantly you must mint A LOT. Let’s take the number from NoKoin example: 80% of all coins are minting all the time (on the basis of the shareholder structure it will probably even be more in the beginning). This means even someone holding coins worth of $10,000 or $100,000 has to mint around 19 hours every day just to obtain purchasing power. If he’s too comfortable doing that, he will probably join the minting pool. Pool or depreciation.

A legitimate PoS coin would never utilize a 100% reward per year. PoS generally suffers from „the rich get richer“ bias: https://twitter.com/gavinandresen/status/421635550911934465

Peercoiners call it a „myth“ which I believe is credible since the reward is only 1% per year, also because of the minimum coin age (one transaction can mint 12 times a year at the most) and due to predictability. Compounded interest rate differences in Peercoin are almost nothing. Blackcoin has a much lower minimum coin age and no predictability in the fairly long term (such as NoKoin) but only a 2% anually reward, still somewhat negligible.

NoKoin 100% reward is deeply unfair and was probably just chosen to get angle investors on board of this scam train.

[jonald_fyookball]

In Neucoin, you'd have to send your coins to the pool. How else are they going to mine with them? I know that in Bitcoin it doesn't work that way.

If that is true, then this just another face palm for nokoin.

Nxt uses leased forging so you don't have to give up your currency, and i thought peercoin's issuance is based on PoW so you don't send your coins to the pool there either. not 100% sure on that , but I do think having to send your currency to a pool is a fail.

[scam confirmed]

Nxt uses leased forging so you don't have to give up your currency, and i thought peercoin's issuance is based on PoW so you don't send your coins to the pool there either.

NoKoiners mess up with the word "mining". Sometimes they distinguish between PoW mining and PoS mining. Sometimes they even call "mining" "minting":

Miner payments are actually composed of two components: coinbase rewards (the new Bitcoin that is minted every block and rewarded to the miner who creates the block) and transaction fees.

Peercoin's issuance is based on both: mining AND minting aka forging aka PoS mining (you know that!). There is no pool for minting Peercoins. But of course there are pools for mining Peercoins.

If that is true, then this just another face palm for nokoin.

Well, how do you understand the following?

MyNeuCoin.com
Reminder: MyNeuCoin is an online wallet where you can store, send and receive your NeuCoins. A lot of effort has been put into making sure that it’s as consumer-friendly and easy-to-use as the leading Bitcoin wallets Circle and Coinbase. This is a major project and we believe it will be a huge differentiator from other altcoins, and absolutely necessary for mainstream adoption.

Here are MyNeuCoin features:
- MyNeuCoin is a Blockchain.info type of wallet with regards to the management of private keys. They are never accessible by the online wallet, only by the wallet users (as opposed to Coinbase for example), which is very important from a security, anonymity and regulatory perspective.
- A user interface adapted to non-crypto people.
- A consumer facing Proof-of-stake cloud mining service called “growth accounts”, where users can leave a deposit for a fixed term and seamlessly earn proof-of-stake mining rewards (without even needing know what “mining” or even “cryptocurrencies” mean).

Current focus:
- UX/UI and design: testing and adjustments
- Finalizing scope and parameters of referral programs
- Special focus on the UX of the growth accounts

http://forum.neucoin.org/t/pre-launch-updates/1268

[jonald_fyookball]

s.c:  thanks for clarifying about peercoin.

It looks like this is the case (you need to DEPOSIT nokoins to use the pool),
but isn't that dumb?  What other coin requires you to
put your funds into a pool to use that pool?

[rizzlarolla]

unanswered questions, Dart/LOrrav

Was the floating stake modifier the innovation LOrrev/Dart?
Will foundations sell koin from day 1 Dart?
What are likely returns and lock up period on growth account?
                    -------------------------------------------
nokoin, transparent, easy to use?

Kahir, Mar 22nd
"as it say on their forum ... the launch should be in March ... so it gotta be in the next week i guess"
Kahir, Apr 12th
"any news"
Kahir, Jun 30th
"when is launch / listing on exchange"
Rizz, Jul 1st
"Torrgeek, Kahir posted to ask when is launch / listing on exchange"
Rizz, Jul1st
"Kahir still waiting for reply"

No reply,
BS marketing experts.
                     -------------------------------------------
I thought LOrrav joined nokoin forum to find out some answers, i.e. ask some questions,or do some reading. NOT SO.
Its been over a week now, no questions, no reading to speak of.
Compare LOrrav's first week with Gekko's (note the reading/research)

              likes           likes       topics      replies     (threads)       read       visits        time              
              received    given      (started)                  entered                                         read

LOrrav        0                 1              0              0              3                18            4            4m

Gekko        1                 19            0              1 *            89              1.6k         11          12h               *  1 reply left out of 12 or so, others deleted,

So why wont LOrrav ask any questions on nokoin forum, what is he scared of? (questions equal ban?)

BTW it's Bi-weekly update day tomorrow!

[LOrrav]

I don't believe Neucoin will have the centralization problems that Bitcoin has.

Neither do I. It’s worse already. https://i.imgur.com/jvo1jBw.jpg

As I've said before, in order for Neucoin to follow their strategic plan, they need these coins to distribute to others in compensation for helping to strengthen it. The presale is just a small part of this. If they sold a large amount during the presale, then users would mostly consist of people who just sit on their hands and pray the price goes up (like with most other coins).  

Unless I'm mistaken, in a PoS coin, like Neucoin, you have to transfer your balance to the pool in order for it to mine for you.

And that is a problem. Centralized hot wallets are a real gold mine for hackers. That’s why exchanges usually keep most of their customer's coins in cold storage. But this isn’t possible for a PoS minting Pool, because PoS coins must always stay online in order to mint. Furthermore, if huge amounts of PoS coins get stolen, it will not only harm the people who got stolen. It will potentially also harm the security of the whole network. Ever heard about the Vericoin/MintPal hack? http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-protected-vericoin-stolen-mintpal-wallet-breach/

Legitimate crypto communities always invoice people to not hold their coins in centralized hot wallets (and exchanges as well of course). But NoKoin’s hyperinflation even encourages people to permanently do so. NoKoin retards even believe it‘s „absolutely necessary for mainstream adoption“. Once people lose their coins they might even leave cryto as a whole telling others about all the scams and how risky crypto is . This is rather going to hurt mainstream adoption than to help it.

Yes, that is the drawback. Hopefully it will help with the dismal security practises currently used in the industry.  But preventing centralization is an important goal.

For someone with $100, this isn't such a big deal, but someone with $10K would have to worry about the security implications of doing this. So, the little guy trades security for earning a lot of extra compounded interest by joining the pool.  However, the whales, and I use that term loosely, holding more than around $1K, would rationally keep their coins under their own control, since they can earn almost the maximum compounded interest by themselves and the risk of losing their coins in someone else's hands isn't worth it.

So, then, the number of holders of $1K or more independently mining will keep centralization from happening.

I disagree. First up, $100 might not be „such a big deal“ for you. But it certainly is a big deal for others.

Yea, well, the world is an imperfect place. There is a trade-off with everything. If they didn't incentivize solo mining, then centralization would be an issue.

Second point is, there is only „extra compounded interest“ for people who receive a higher compunded interest rate than the overall inflation rate. In order to achieve this using solo-minting, you must not only have enough coins. Even more importantly you must mint A LOT. Let’s take the number from NoKoin example: 80% of all coins are minting all the time (on the basis of the shareholder structure it will probably even be more in the beginning). This means even someone holding coins worth of $10,000 or $100,000 has to mint around 19 hours every day just to obtain purchasing power. If he’s too comfortable doing that, he will probably join the minting pool. Pool or depreciation.

I'm guessing you meant "maintain" rather than "obtain", and "not too comfortable" rather than "too comfortable". Maintaining purchase power (aka. making a profit), depends also on the growth of the economy using the coin, and that won't grow unless people are keeping it secure. Heck, Bitcoiner's currently suffer from around 10% inflation per year, and can do nothing about this (Bitcoins can't be staked) and they don't seem to concerned about it.

And the fact that a miner has to choose between a pool, depreciation, or single-mining, and the system is designed so his rational choice aligns with keeping the market decentralized and secure is actually a really good design decision.

A legitimate PoS coin would never utilize a 100% reward per year. PoS generally suffers from „the rich get richer“ bias: https://twitter.com/gavinandresen/status/421635550911934465

Peercoiners call it a „myth“ which I believe is credible since the reward is only 1% per year, also because of the minimum coin age (one transaction can mint 12 times a year at the most) and due to predictability. Compounded interest rate differences in Peercoin are almost nothing. Blackcoin has a much lower minimum coin age and no predictability in the fairly long term (such as NoKoin) but only a 2% anually reward, still somewhat negligible.

NoKoin 100% reward is deeply unfair and was probably just chosen to get angle investors on board of this scam train.

First, lets be clear. Only the first year will users be making 100% interest. After that, it linearly reduces down to 6% after 10 years.

Second, simple algebra shows that regardless of the reward percentage, as long as users are mining, the Rich maintain the same, "purchasing power" as you called it, vs the poor. Let A be user A, B be user B, and p equal to the percentage earned. Then  A*(1+p)/ (B*(1+p)) = A/B.

[provenceday]

When will the Mining start?

Thanks!