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Author Topic: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It  (Read 3901078 times)
aahzmundus
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April 29, 2014, 12:30:10 PM
 #18881

Without going into the debate with competitors too much - from what is observable from the progression in bitcoin mining IT is that gen3 equivalent hardware from AM and "next-gen" hardware will likely co-exist long-term (> 2 years). This is because there are 10-fold variations in energy prices dependent on location and still large bitcoin price fluctuations, which gives mining a timing value. As such one may expect the less efficient hardware to migrate into areas of low electricity costs and opportunistic mining, while high-efficiency hardware goes into high-cost areas (e.g. through supply and maintenance chain issues) and sustained mining. This will make the overall hashing power of the network much more elastic.

The bottom line is that while gen1 or gen2 ASICs may come to an abrupt death, the gen3 ASICs will likely fade out smoothly.

I have been saying this for a while.  Someone recently pointed out that in some parts of the developing world, in remote as fuck areas, the government subsidies electricity to the point where it is far cheaper then it should be in an effort to attract industry.  There are very few takers as who wants to have a factory stuck in the middle of Africa.  But bitcoin mining....

So who wants to do the leg work and get an ASIC farm set up in one of these areas!

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April 29, 2014, 01:33:19 PM
 #18882

Also, in some places in the world (e.g. France), heating is done with electricity.
Since heating is done with electricity anyway, it would seem to make sense to swap the electrical resistance with cheap bitcoin mining ASICs.
atomicchaos
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April 29, 2014, 01:45:23 PM
 #18883

I have been saying this for a while.  Someone recently pointed out that in some parts of the developing world, in remote as fuck areas, the government subsidies electricity to the point where it is far cheaper then it should be in an effort to attract industry.  There are very few takers as who wants to have a factory stuck in the middle of Africa.  But bitcoin mining....

So who wants to do the leg work and get an ASIC farm set up in one of these areas!

Uh, it's not just remote areas.. I'm paying .05 kw/h (no delivery cost) in the US. Of course the place that has this cheap power is a very small town with the town running things. Maybe this isn't as cheap as you're referring to, but it has allowed me profitability when most are unprofitable.

Was thinking of opening a second site that I found available as it's cheaper than upgrading my 400 amp 3 phase service to go to another location with existing available service. This majority of the town also uses electricity to heat their houses in the winter.


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April 29, 2014, 02:34:35 PM
 #18884

Without going into the debate with competitors too much - from what is observable from the progression in bitcoin mining IT is that gen3 equivalent hardware from AM and "next-gen" hardware will likely co-exist long-term (> 2 years). This is because there are 10-fold variations in energy prices dependent on location and still large bitcoin price fluctuations, which gives mining a timing value. As such one may expect the less efficient hardware to migrate into areas of low electricity costs and opportunistic mining, while high-efficiency hardware goes into high-cost areas (e.g. through supply and maintenance chain issues) and sustained mining. This will make the overall hashing power of the network much more elastic.

The bottom line is that while gen1 or gen2 ASICs may come to an abrupt death, the gen3 ASICs will likely fade out smoothly.

I have been saying this for a while.  Someone recently pointed out that in some parts of the developing world, in remote as fuck areas, the government subsidies electricity to the point where it is far cheaper then it should be in an effort to attract industry.  There are very few takers as who wants to have a factory stuck in the middle of Africa.  But bitcoin mining....

So who wants to do the leg work and get an ASIC farm set up in one of these areas!

You seem to have neglected the fact that you would have to cool these machines. Thats a lot easier to do in a colder country.

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April 29, 2014, 04:03:28 PM
 #18885


You seem to think lowering voltage can guarantee higher efficiency. Show me some proof. Has it ever occurred to you that chip manufacturers may have already set voltage as low as possible without diminishing returns?

You repeat over and over that it has to work because "physics" and yet in reality there is not a single person with an asic who acheived less than 0.5w/gh at the chip level.


Here's some proof, oh yeah and BTW our chip on 55nm achieved that "less than 0.5W/Ghash" back in june 2013 Smiley


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April 29, 2014, 05:38:48 PM
 #18886

Will their be usb sticks 4sale, too?
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April 29, 2014, 06:16:23 PM
 #18887


Here's some proof, oh yeah and BTW our chip on 55nm achieved that "less than 0.5W/Ghash" back in june 2013 Smiley


Seems like you even went below 0.4W/GH at the chip level. Not bad for your first ever asic design (IIRC) on an obsolete process and nearly one year ahead of the competition. Cant wait to see what you will do on a more advanced process. Havent kept up, is something upcoming ?

That said, wouldnt waste my time trying to talk sense to "jimmothy". Logic is lost on him.
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April 29, 2014, 11:13:31 PM
 #18888


You seem to think lowering voltage can guarantee higher efficiency. Show me some proof. Has it ever occurred to you that chip manufacturers may have already set voltage as low as possible without diminishing returns?

You repeat over and over that it has to work because "physics" and yet in reality there is not a single person with an asic who acheived less than 0.5w/gh at the chip level.


Here's some proof, oh yeah and BTW our chip on 55nm achieved that "less than 0.5W/Ghash" back in june 2013 Smiley



Well that's about as solid proof as it gets. Thanks for proving me wrong without theoretical evidence.

0.38w/gh is incredibly impressive but I want to know is it still cost effective while only 1gh per chip?

And puppet this in no way validates your claims that any and all asic manufacturers can increase efficiency beyond what was advertised. Bitfury is a rare exception and even then 0.38w/gh was advertised I was just unaware of it.

Quote
Please note that it seems that 96 Mhz is close to _BEST_ solution

This leads me to beleive that even bitfury is towards the deep end of the shmoo plot.

How do we know other manufacturers are not?

And even if all manufacturers can acheive below 0.38w/gh can they do it cost effectively?
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April 29, 2014, 11:54:11 PM
 #18889


You seem to think lowering voltage can guarantee higher efficiency. Show me some proof. Has it ever occurred to you that chip manufacturers may have already set voltage as low as possible without diminishing returns?

You repeat over and over that it has to work because "physics" and yet in reality there is not a single person with an asic who acheived less than 0.5w/gh at the chip level.


Here's some proof, oh yeah and BTW our chip on 55nm achieved that "less than 0.5W/Ghash" back in june 2013 Smiley



Well that's about as solid proof as it gets. Thanks for proving me wrong without theoretical evidence.

0.38w/gh is incredibly impressive but I want to know is it still cost effective while only 1gh per chip?

And puppet this in no way validates your claims that any and all asic manufacturers can increase efficiency beyond what was advertised. Bitfury is a rare exception and even then 0.38w/gh was advertised I was just unaware of it.

Quote
Please note that it seems that 96 Mhz is close to _BEST_ solution

This leads me to beleive that even bitfury is towards the deep end of the shmoo plot.

How do we know other manufacturers are not?

And even if all manufacturers can acheive below 0.38w/gh can they do it cost effectively?

look at  bitmain - the S1 is ~2w/GH which the S2 is 1w/GH, by running each chip at about 60% the power.  Presumably less than 1w/GH could be done, but would require many more chips, which is cost-prohibitive for the time being

24" PCI-E cables with 16AWG wires and stripped ends - great for server PSU mods, best prices https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=563461
No longer a wannabe - now an ASIC owner!
Jutarul
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April 29, 2014, 11:56:27 PM
 #18890

There are no general updates this time, only the replies to the questions raised and submitted by forum shareholders:

Specific Updates
================

Submitted Questions:
1) When can we expect the financial report that's supposed to coincide with the next round of dividends?
re 1) May 27.

2) With the switch to selling chips, can we expect dividends to be paid out on are "more monthly" basis?
re 2) Most likely yes.

3) What capacity of gen 3 hardware is supposed to be used for franchised mining?
re 3) Depending on the capacity of our franchisees. We personally think 20P could be possible even inside China.

4) What are the current approximate terms of franchised mining, i.e. what does it take to become a franchisee and how are AM and the shareholders profiting from it?
re 4) We have the deployment team to investigate and audit the franchisees. We prefer the original 80/20 division and the 80% are calculated as our mining income. But the cost of the device (without chips) needs to be calculated in so there will be adjustments.

5) Are there any current plans of improving the PR; maybe bi-weekly short summaries or a PR person (board member?)? Are question sets like this an option, maybe once a month?
re 5) This question set can be posed more frequently. For the PR topic, it's still a to-be-solved problem.

6) Is it feasible to create a "gen 3.5" with the consumption drawbacks fixed? With the consumption issue at hand, what is the timeframe for gen 4; are there any adjustments?
re 6) No "gen3.5", but there will be "gen3.1", which is exploiting the production options from the fab the minimize the consumption.

7) After recent crackdowns on BTC exchanges in China, is AM still unaffected and are there strategies to continue operations in case of problems?
re 7) There are no crackdown on BTC exchanges. What the central bank did was to secretly prevent banks from keeping their company bank accounts without placing any public bans. It reflects the fact that the gov has still been pretending that they are neutral to Bitcoin.

General Disclaimer
==================

Please note that some information is subject to change, as this is a very agile business. Please be careful when speculating on company valuation. This information is purely provided as a service to current shareholders and may not be free of errors.

The ASICMINER Project https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.0
"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.", Milton Friedman
minerpumpkin
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April 30, 2014, 12:05:41 AM
 #18891

Thanks Jutarul and of course friedcat for relaying and answering the questions! So, we've still got a month to go concerning dividends!
Is gen 3.1 supposed to be the pad/size adjustment mentioned earlier? This seems to be purely a package optimization, doesn't it?

I should have gotten into Bitcoin back in 1992...
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April 30, 2014, 12:06:31 AM
 #18892

Quote
3) What capacity of gen 3 hardware is supposed to be used for franchised mining?
re 3) Depending on the capacity of our franchisees. We personally think 20P could be possible even inside China

Very nice. About 10 times what I expected.

Thanks for the updates as always.

@klondike bitmain always advertised 0.68w/gh chip level
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April 30, 2014, 12:16:49 AM
 #18893

7) After recent crackdowns on BTC exchanges in China, is AM still unaffected and are there strategies to continue operations in case of problems?
re 7) There are no crackdown on BTC exchanges. What the central bank did was to secretly prevent banks from keeping their company bank accounts without placing any public bans. It reflects the fact that the gov has still been pretending that they are neutral to Bitcoin.

i knew it! Grin

ps: yeay good news good news, thanks Smiley
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April 30, 2014, 12:43:19 AM
 #18894

Thank-you. I am very pleased with the insight you are providing. I suspected that AM would mine more extensively through franchising after the previous post stated that mining directly would be limited by current capacity of 3P. The franchising terms appear to be very favorable.
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April 30, 2014, 01:05:42 AM
 #18895

Always good to hear the updates, Jutarul.
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April 30, 2014, 01:30:13 AM
 #18896

There are no general updates this time, only the replies to the questions raised and submitted by forum shareholders:

Specific Updates
================

Submitted Questions:
1) When can we expect the financial report that's supposed to coincide with the next round of dividends?
re 1) May 27.

2) With the switch to selling chips, can we expect dividends to be paid out on are "more monthly" basis?
re 2) Most likely yes.

3) What capacity of gen 3 hardware is supposed to be used for franchised mining?
re 3) Depending on the capacity of our franchisees. We personally think 20P could be possible even inside China.

4) What are the current approximate terms of franchised mining, i.e. what does it take to become a franchisee and how are AM and the shareholders profiting from it?
re 4) We have the deployment team to investigate and audit the franchisees. We prefer the original 80/20 division and the 80% are calculated as our mining income. But the cost of the device (without chips) needs to be calculated in so there will be adjustments.

5) Are there any current plans of improving the PR; maybe bi-weekly short summaries or a PR person (board member?)? Are question sets like this an option, maybe once a month?
re 5) This question set can be posed more frequently. For the PR topic, it's still a to-be-solved problem.

6) Is it feasible to create a "gen 3.5" with the consumption drawbacks fixed? With the consumption issue at hand, what is the timeframe for gen 4; are there any adjustments?
re 6) No "gen3.5", but there will be "gen3.1", which is exploiting the production options from the fab the minimize the consumption.

7) After recent crackdowns on BTC exchanges in China, is AM still unaffected and are there strategies to continue operations in case of problems?
re 7) There are no crackdown on BTC exchanges. What the central bank did was to secretly prevent banks from keeping their company bank accounts without placing any public bans. It reflects the fact that the gov has still been pretending that they are neutral to Bitcoin.

General Disclaimer
==================

Please note that some information is subject to change, as this is a very agile business. Please be careful when speculating on company valuation. This information is purely provided as a service to current shareholders and may not be free of errors.

Wow, thank you Jutarul!

Thirsty for my dividends.
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April 30, 2014, 02:03:34 AM
 #18897

re 5) For the PR topic, it's still a to-be-solved problem.

Thanks for the update Jutarul.

I actually think you may have largely solved issue 5 already if you keep doing what you are doing Smiley
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April 30, 2014, 04:29:11 AM
 #18898

so another long month ... we hope and believe™ that it will be really one month  Roll Eyes

after :

tapeout date January 20th
mass delivery in March
This month(april): 850k

... Question Everything, Believe Nothing ...
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April 30, 2014, 05:12:04 AM
 #18899

so another long month ... we hope and believe™ that it will be really one month  Roll Eyes

after :

tapeout date January 20th
mass delivery in March
This month(april): 850k
So there is still no dividends this month?  Intersting.
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April 30, 2014, 06:05:45 AM
 #18900

So there is still no dividends this month?  Intersting.

Assuming you have at least 30 full shares...   


   1HtUGfbDcMzTeHWx2Dbgnhc6kYnj1Hp24i  =  $ 12,674.87

   $ 12,674.87 / 400,000 = about 3.1cents per share.     

 Your dividend is worth about 93 cents.

 I'd pay and deliver it myself, but it'd cost me $1 in postage.

 This thread is for intelligent discussion.    Hope I didn't offend...  much.   Cool




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