What was the life expectancy in the US 100 years ago? 50 years ago? 25 years ago? Was the US more Christian 100, 50 or 25 years ago? Who is against stem cell research? You know, the technology that can save and extend lives. What is the life expectancy in Japan? How many Japanese are Christian? Healthy, stress-free life, with lots of social life, is not the domain of Christians or religious people. I would argue that being religious adds more stress to your life as you have to worry about what your God will think, every second of your life, you have to constantly think: "Would I make it into heaven or would I end up in hell?" Atheists do not have this issue. When you know you have one life to live, you take care of your body, your mind, your relationship with others because you know after you die there is no second chance. You, on the other hand, think that afterlife is what matters, this life is only temporary, 120 years at most vs the eternity. So rape here or there, abuse of your wife or your body, kill few men here or there is all ok, as long as you accept Jesus as your savior before you die, LOL Now, who has a more healthy outlook on our life on this planet? PS. What is the global population growth rate? Should it be increasing at 4 or 5% as is the case in communities of most orthodox religions? Growth rate close to zero is what all intelligent humans should be striving for. Not reproducing like ignorant rabbits. PPS. On average, are Christian or Atheists more educated? Who do you think would make a better manager, better policymaker, better scientist, better engineer, better doctor? A guy who thinks Earth is flat and is 6000 years old, thinks there is an old man sitting in the clouds who watches everything and controls everything, a guy who thinks a cracker can turn into human flesh and wine or a guy who believes humans are responsible for all we do, not some fairy tale characters in the clouds or down below in Earth's core? https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/the-human-beast/201402/why-are-educated-people-more-likely-be-atheists |
|
|
|
Except some might argue, myself included, that religions are the source of evil in this world.
The holy scriptures are definitely evil so you might need to work a little bit more on your 'theory of progress'.
Most of the worst religions declare any faith other then their own as the source of all evil. Your religion is no exception. My religion? WTF? Talk about delusional. Not playing sport is not a sport. Scholars have failed to agree on a definition of religion. There are however two general definition systems: the sociological/functional and the phenomenological/philosophical.[4][5][6][7][8]
Emile Durkheim defined religion as "a unified system of beliefs and practices relative to sacred things, that is to say things set apart and forbidden - beliefs and practices which unite into one single moral community called a church, all those who adhere to them."[9]
Max Lynn Stackhouse, defined religion as "a comprehensive worldview or 'metaphysical moral vision' that is accepted as binding because it is held to be in itself basically true and just even if all dimensions of it cannot be either fully confirmed or refuted".[10]
Profession Stackhouse isolated the issue the best. Like it or not af_newbie your humanist moral relativism qualifies. You have laid out a metaphysical subjective moral vision for us. I think your ideals will take us back in barbarism and evil and I highlighted why. You think your worldview is the way forward into progress and prosperity. Time will of course reveal which of us is correct. In the meantime you and I and anyone else who happens to read this exchange will need to exercise free will and decide for themselves. So far we are doing quite well without your stoning and cutting off hands and heads, without crucifixions and stake burnings, so thanks but no thanks. It would help if you could just get the fuck out of education and science classrooms. Humanity will do well going forward without your Bronze Age or 6th-century wisdom. |
|
|
|
^^^ You are so good. After all, whatever religion a person has, he dies. So, if a person has a religion of selfishness, he still dies. The trick is finding a religion that allows one to live forever. Obviously, such a religion isn't going to be in this life. Even scientifically, there is too much entropy involved in the universe, to keep the complexity of life from doing anything other than breaking down into death. This is where God comes in to offer Jesus salvation. And that is what atheists hate. Why do they hate this? They want a religion where they are their own gods, to make their own salvation. Many atheists are dead from this already. Atheism is simply another false religion.  And you know this how? Are you an atheist who speaks for all atheists? BTW, I can tell you that atheists do not hate things that are not real such as God, Jesus salvation, etc. We do not know what those things are. What most atheists hate is the stone age moral code (support of slavery, opposition to homosexuality, same-sex marriage), the opposition to the advancement of science (stem cell research, genetic engineering, etc), physical harm to people, especially kids, backward, anti-science education (aka Christian homeschooling), etc. That is what atheists hate, not your fairy tale stories. You can believe whatever you want to believe, just don't bring it up in the public. We don't really care what imaginary friend you believe sits in the clouds as long as you don't harm others, directly or via the policymaking. What bothers me the most personally is your claim to more rights because you (or your book) says so. |
|
|
|
Except some might argue, myself included, that religions are the source of evil in this world.
The holy scriptures are definitely evil so you might need to work a little bit more on your 'theory of progress'.
Most of the worst religions declare any faith other then their own as the source of all evil. Your religion is no exception. My religion? WTF? Talk about delusional. Not playing sport is not a sport. |
|
|
|
first of all we can not blame whole community just because of few rotten apples. And i think some of them hate religion because they think different religion are the reason of this extremism and radicalization presence in the world, which is true at all. Some people who are not following religion properly are extremist because no religion of world preach extremism.
What does the Bible or Quran say you should do with the gay people? Religious people are the victims. The worldview presented in the scriptures is what is wrong with religions. Not 'few rotten apples' as you put it. People are born into their religions and become indoctrinated as children. What happens after that depends on who they associate with. Religions poison your mind. All religions are equally evil. The issue is not with 'few rotten apples', the issue is with 'rotten scriptures'. Religious apologetics always try to shift the blame on people, away from the scriptures, but the fact is that the scriptures are the root cause of all the problems created by religions. Not the people who were indoctrinated into the religions of their parents. its the laws to live, if we live without rules we are savages. Holy religious books do not stops you from any beneficial thing or action it only stops you from what is wrong and harmful for humanity. Is killing gays wrong or not, in your opinion? no i think its right. Where are your morals? You don't think murdering people is wrong? What the fuck is wrong with you? Are you mentally sick? . Why the hell you people are blaming religions for all the mess Are you brain damaged? Religious laws tell people to murder people for no apparent reason. That is not freedom of speech. That is hate speech. Religious laws incite violence. And what about the diseases spreading from this homosexuality thing can you justify that as well. What about AIDS, many people die every year due to this disease and you think homosexuality is right and i consider it as a murder of innocent people from this gay community. You are savages living lives without any clear rules and instructions just living it. What about rape, alcohol, child abuse, murder, terrorism and other many bad deeds from which religions stops human beings.Religion does not stop those things. If anything, it encourages it and/or supports it. BTW, you can get HIV on your next visit to the dentist. HIV is spread through the exchange of bodily fluids, you ignoramus. You are a barbarian. Do you think you stand on the higher moral ground with your 6th-century wisdom? You are ignoring centuries of scientific and technological progress we have made as a human race. You are locked in a time capsule. |
|
|
|
...
What barbarism am I advocating?
...
You are simply deluded not only about your belief system but also of what actually happened in history.
I described immediately above the logical implications of your stated belief system as it is implemented in the world today and why I consider it a step backwards into barbarism. In my opinion you lack a fundamental understanding of the primary drivers of progress. Religion and Progress. Regardless it is clear we fundamentally and wholeheartedly disagree. Ultimately we will have to let the readers decide for themselves which of our perspectives they agree with for we are clearly nowhere close to consensus nor do we appear to be trending in that direction. Except some might argue, myself included, that religions are the source of evil in this world. The holy scriptures are definitely evil so you might need to work a little bit more on your 'theory of progress'. |
|
|
|
You are doing a typical apologetic tap dance. "Oh, well, those particular laws were given to ancient Israelites, not for us, etc."
Where are the 10 commandments? Whom were they given to? Why are you obeying some laws but not the others?
Because you are not a Bronze Age barbarian that is why.
Christians, Muslims, and Jews don't kill gays because of the secular laws are preventing them from doing so. That is one of the reasons why they do not obey 'God's laws'. Other reason might be that they are good people and ignore the Bible or Quran, as sane people in the 21st century should.
If we removed the secular laws, and go by the biblical/quranic laws only, we would have a lot of massacres on our hands.
The point is the scriptures are seriously fucked up. They were written by barbarians for barbarians. End of story.
Nothing to discuss, move along.
Yes those laws were given to the ancient Israelites but the wisdom in them does apply to us. Sin is still sin. We have simply been instructed to use compassion with those struggling with sin and temper justice with mercy whenever possible. We are all sinners in need of mercy and grace. You accuse me of doing an apologetic tap dance but the only one I see dancing around the real issues here is you. You seem unwilling or unable to face the horrible implications of your philosophy and religion. You said you value your life tremendously but under your belief system the only thing that gives that life validity and value is the arbitrary and capricious will of the majority. That is why you are presumably ok with abortion as you believe it is the right of majority to decide if a human being is granted “human status” and the right to live. Presumably you are fine with active euthanasia for the sick and disabled as well if the families agree to it. In some countries the mentality ill are now starting being euthanized for psychological pain. Aren’t we all better off if their just not around anymore? Great strides forward for the humanist. https://www.lifenews.com/2015/06/22/doctor-will-kill-healthy-24-year-old-in-euthanasia-whos-thought-of-suicide-since-she-was-a-kid/The leftist parts of the country in the USA are now allowing fully grown babies totally capable of independent survival independently of the mother be killed right up to the moment of birth. Those on the frontlines of “progress” also defend “peaceful” euthanasia of disabled young infants. The world is crowded already and when push comes to shove what kind of life would a sick or disabled baby have anyways? It better for everyone to speed death along say the moral relativists. https://www.lifenews.com/2015/01/02/doctors-euthanize-650-babies-under-assisted-suicide-law-in-the-netherlands/Who are the real Barbarians here? Certainly it’s not the Christians. The real Barbarism is being perpetrated daily on the most vulnerable of society by your fellow moral relativists.You’ve got the Bible wrong af_newbie. It was written for Bronze Age barbarians. It is the very thing that transformed them into something slightly better. By rejecting it you are not advancing moral progress as you believe but helping take society a great stride backwards in barbarism. The evidence for this is all around you. Open your eyes set aside your preconceived notions for a moment and look. You don't understand what I have posted so far. What do you mean 'validate life'? Life just is. It does not need validation. The majority has nothing to do with it. Some things are true, no matter the religion or political system. Actions that cause harm are undesirable, no matter what planet you are on. What barbarism am I advocating? PS. The Bible did not transform barbarians. Secular thought and science did. Barbarians were burning witches and scientists until the 18th century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_executed_for_witchcraftWhat did the barbarians do to Giordano Bruno? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_BrunoYou are simply deluded not only about your belief system but also of what actually happened in history. |
|
|
|
Are you brain damaged? Religious laws tell people to murder people for no apparent reason. That is not freedom of speech. That is hate speech. Religious laws incite violence. But Christian religious laws, and laws of many other religions absolutely tell people not to murder. What rock have you been hiding under for all this while? Leviticus 20-13 "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." Let me stop you right there before you claim that killing is not murder. Gays must be killed according to your Christian/Jewish/Muslim scripture. If this is not incitement to violence than I don't know what is. |
|
|
|
first of all we can not blame whole community just because of few rotten apples. And i think some of them hate religion because they think different religion are the reason of this extremism and radicalization presence in the world, which is true at all. Some people who are not following religion properly are extremist because no religion of world preach extremism.
What does the Bible or Quran say you should do with the gay people? Religious people are the victims. The worldview presented in the scriptures is what is wrong with religions. Not 'few rotten apples' as you put it. People are born into their religions and become indoctrinated as children. What happens after that depends on who they associate with. Religions poison your mind. All religions are equally evil. The issue is not with 'few rotten apples', the issue is with 'rotten scriptures'. Religious apologetics always try to shift the blame on people, away from the scriptures, but the fact is that the scriptures are the root cause of all the problems created by religions. Not the people who were indoctrinated into the religions of their parents. its the laws to live, if we live without rules we are savages. Holy religious books do not stops you from any beneficial thing or action it only stops you from what is wrong and harmful for humanity. Is killing gays wrong or not, in your opinion? no i think its right. Where are your morals? You don't think murdering people is wrong? What the fuck is wrong with you? Are you mentally sick? . Why the hell you people are blaming religions for all the mess Are you brain damaged? Religious laws tell people to murder people for no apparent reason. That is not freedom of speech. That is hate speech. Religious laws incite violence. |
|
|
|
I was arguing that scriptures are fucked up. Read before you answer. ...
Religious apologetics always try to shift the blame on people, away from the scriptures, but the fact is that the scriptures are the root cause of all the problems created by religions. Not the people who were indoctrinated into the religions of their parents.
Christian or Jewish apologetics are the same as Muslim apologetics. You guys ignore the scriptures and divert the attention to something else. Leviticus 20-13 "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
Both scriptures, the Quran and the Bible are clear on the subject. I am not sure what your objection is. Are you confused? Frankly, the quality of your responses has been falling considerably. Are you ok? You did not even try to counter my argument that destroyed the concept of free will. Now you babble something that not all Christians follow the Bible because they do not kill gays today. How is this remotely relevant to the discussion of the content of the scriptures? Atheists have the easiest job in the world. They can just open the Bible or the Quran and read. You, on the other hand, have to resort some mental gymnastics by inventing "proper instantiation", "proper translation", "proper metaphor", "that is not what the writers meant", "the scriptures have to be read in the original language they were written", etc. But the fact is that the scriptures recommend some seriously fucked shit as punishment, every 10-year old who reads it understands it, except you guys. Admit that the scriptures are seriously fucked up so that we can move on to more important topics. The problem we have af_newbie is not a decline in the quality of my response but a deeper fundamental divergence. We have adopted different fundamental positions regarding the nature of reality. We both embrace the scientific method and are able to talk to each other coherently on topics related to fact and experiment. However, the conversation has now entered into the realm of the philosophical (free will vs determinism) and base principles (objective vs subjective morality) where out differences become stark and irreconcilable. I have answered your argument about free will. You said that “If the world is deterministic, you have no control over what you are going to do next. Your thoughts are driven by all the cause and effects.” I replied yes that is true but also irrelevant because you are using the wrong frame of reference to analyze the situation. You are attempting to describe how the universe looks from an all knowing top-down perspective of God. We don’t live in that frame of reference. It is possible for agents to be free, relative to the fiction that they live in, whilst wholly determined from a God’s eye view. This was demonstrated by Izbicer well over a century ago. The Izbicer Rebbe and Freewill http://www.theapj.com/the-izbicer-rebbe-and-freewill-2/When we speak relative to a fiction, it is true to say that the characters are free, and the meaning of the word ‘free’ doesn’t have to be contorted in the slightest; the concept of freedom is the same concept that we started with. But, when we speak about the fiction, and its writer, we make a semantic ascent, and it is no longer true to talk of the characters as having any sort of independence from the author. But, the freedom that we attribute to the characters, in their world, is a real as anything can be, and it is freedom in precisely the pre-philosophical sense of the word; no definitions have been twisted.
We are free relative to our own limited frame of reference. This makes our freedom as real as anything else in this wondrous creation we find ourselves in. As for apologetics. I agree that the Bible and any holy text should be understood in the original language and context they were written in. As far as Leviticus 20-13 it is clear that the Ancient Israelites were commanded to assign the death penalty to homosexual acts. However, why isolate that particular passage. There were a whole host of atypical or aberrant sexual behaviors that were similarly assigned the death penalty. Homosexuality was not singled out as special or unique. The death penalty was commanded for a variaty of sexual infractions these included: Having homosexual intercourse between men (Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13). Committing adultery between a man and a woman (Leviticus 20:10-12, Deuteronomy 22:22). Being the daughter of a priest and practicing prostitution (Leviticus 21:9). Raping an engaged female virgin (Deuteronomy 22:25). Being male and practicing bestiality (Leviticus 20:15). Being female and practicing bestiality (Leviticus 20:16). Having sex with your father’s wife (Leviticus 20:20). Having sex with your daughter-in-law (Leviticus 20:30). Having incestual sex (Leviticus 20:17). Marrying a woman and her daughter (Leviticus 20:14). What’s the common theme here? It is that the human sexual acts must be confined only to traditional marriage between a man and women. Anything that detached the sex act from the bedrock foundation of the family and marriage was deemed so serious that it warranted death. We’re all these rules necessary? There is a good argument to be made that they were. A strong society is ultimately composed of strong stable family units. The survival of higher civilization in the long run ultimately depends on strong stable family units. This is especially true when that society is under existential outside threat like the ancient Israelites were. Dennis Prager does a good job of highlighting this here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B0-epfgG7lISo no I do not agree that “the scriptures are seriously fucked up”. Picking and choosing the isolated prohibitions you personally disagree with is pointless. You take issue with Leviticus 18:22. Someone else may think incest should be ok and dislike Leviticus 20:17. A third person may believe animals are on this earth for human consumption and enjoyment and hate Leviticus 20:15. The reality is there is not a single group of Christians in the world going around and enforcing of the death penalty for Leviticus 18:22. Why not? After all the Bible is the word of God. The reason at least for Christians is because Christians were also instructed that that we have reached the point in our development when we need to include mercy in the evaluation of sin for we are all grievous sinners to some degree or another. That mercy should extend when possible even to violations of Biblical law. John 8:7 , “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.”You will have a hard time following the importance of this logic because you don’t believe in sin. You are doing a typical apologetic tap dance. "Oh, well, those particular laws were given to ancient Israelites, not for us, etc." Where are the 10 commandments? Whom were they given to? Why are you obeying some laws but not the others? Because you are not a Bronze Age barbarian that is why. Christians, Muslims, and Jews don't kill gays because of the secular laws are preventing them from doing so. That is one of the reasons why they do not obey 'God's laws'. Other reason might be that they are good people and ignore the Bible or Quran, as sane people in the 21st century should. If we removed the secular laws, and go by the biblical/quranic laws only, we would have a lot of massacres on our hands. The point is the scriptures are seriously fucked up. They were written by barbarians for barbarians. End of story. Nothing to discuss, move along. |
|
|
|
Where are your morals? You don't think murdering people is wrong?
What the fuck is wrong with you? Are you mentally sick?
You ultimately can judge any religion including your moral relativism by its fruits. Show me the current Christian or Jewish community anywhere in the world where homosexuals are routinely killed and murdered. After you are done futilely trying to find one I will show you the multiple areas of the planet where your moral relativism is currently in vogue. In those communities the unborn are routinely murdererd in their millions and the elderly are increasingly being put down by their doctors. Death by doctor now account for up to 25% of adult mortality in some countries. Where are your morals? You don't think murdering people is wrong? What the fuck is wrong with you? Are you mentally sick? Only someone embracing a truly deranged religion would utterly focus on the ridiculous theoretical risk of Christians rising up in mass to kill all the gays while nonchalantly ignoring the machinery of mass death all around them. Edit: In fairness to af_newbie I just realized that he was responding not to BADecker but to someone of the following religion. Islam is the most peaceful religion of world.
If he wants to make the case that moral relativism is superior to Mohammedism I will stay out of that fight as I hold an unfavorable opinion about both. I was arguing that scriptures are fucked up. Read before you answer. ...
Religious apologetics always try to shift the blame on people, away from the scriptures, but the fact is that the scriptures are the root cause of all the problems created by religions. Not the people who were indoctrinated into the religions of their parents.
Christian or Jewish apologetics are the same as Muslim apologetics. You guys ignore the scriptures and divert the attention to something else. Leviticus 20-13 "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
Both scriptures, the Quran and the Bible are clear on the subject. I am not sure what your objection is. Are you confused? Frankly, the quality of your responses has been falling considerably. Are you ok? You did not even try to counter my argument that destroyed the concept of free will. Now you babble something that not all Christians follow the Bible because they do not kill gays today. How is this remotely relevant to the discussion of the content of the scriptures? Atheists have the easiest job in the world. They can just open the Bible or the Quran and read. You, on the other hand, have to resort some mental gymnastics by inventing "proper instantiation", "proper translation", "proper metaphor", "that is not what the writers meant", "the scriptures have to be read in the original language they were written", etc. But the fact is that the scriptures recommend some seriously fucked shit as punishment, every 10-year old who reads it understands it, except you guys. Admit that the scriptures are seriously fucked up so that we can move on to more important topics. |
|
|
|
first of all we can not blame whole community just because of few rotten apples. And i think some of them hate religion because they think different religion are the reason of this extremism and radicalization presence in the world, which is true at all. Some people who are not following religion properly are extremist because no religion of world preach extremism.
What does the Bible or Quran say you should do with the gay people? Religious people are the victims. The worldview presented in the scriptures is what is wrong with religions. Not 'few rotten apples' as you put it. People are born into their religions and become indoctrinated as children. What happens after that depends on who they associate with. Religions poison your mind. All religions are equally evil. The issue is not with 'few rotten apples', the issue is with 'rotten scriptures'. Religious apologetics always try to shift the blame on people, away from the scriptures, but the fact is that the scriptures are the root cause of all the problems created by religions. Not the people who were indoctrinated into the religions of their parents. its the laws to live, if we live without rules we are savages. Holy religious books do not stops you from any beneficial thing or action it only stops you from what is wrong and harmful for humanity. Is killing gays wrong or not, in your opinion? no i think its right. Where are your morals? You don't think murdering people is wrong? What the fuck is wrong with you? Are you mentally sick? |
|
|
|
^^^ 1. Recognize that homosexual tendencies are only that, tendencies, that were recognized to be friendship tendencies in other ways than homosexuality. 2. Get help and counseling to confirm how to properly apply those tendencies in life. 3. Absolutely avoid homosexual acts. 4. Get counseling about how to interact with people of both sexes without doing the H acts. 5. No sexual intercourse outside of marriage.6. Make friends who are strong in ways that avoid H, while avoiding people who tend toward the H acts. 7. Seek a straight church, and get counseling for those trained to deal with H. 8. Avoid anti-H medicines as much as possible; get into good nutrition. Doing these things will gradually train a person away from H no matter what his chemical tendencies are. Life is full of troubles. Don't make them worse by indulging them. Acting out the gay part is an illness because it completely thwarts the purpose for the instincts, procreation. Ignoring the fact that you are completely mental when it comes to the issue of homosexuality... Do you buy cars without driving them? No sex before marriage can lead to lifelong sexual frustration, adultery and eventually a divorce. Are you sure you (or your God, lol) thought this through? Why are you so afraid of gays? Are you gay yourself and are afraid that people would find out and think less of you as a man? It cannot be just Bible verses, there is more to this story, I'm afraid. |
|
|
|
first of all we can not blame whole community just because of few rotten apples. And i think some of them hate religion because they think different religion are the reason of this extremism and radicalization presence in the world, which is true at all. Some people who are not following religion properly are extremist because no religion of world preach extremism.
What does the Bible or Quran say you should do with the gay people? Religious people are the victims. The worldview presented in the scriptures is what is wrong with religions. Not 'few rotten apples' as you put it. People are born into their religions and become indoctrinated as children. What happens after that depends on who they associate with. Religions poison your mind. All religions are equally evil. The issue is not with 'few rotten apples', the issue is with 'rotten scriptures'. Religious apologetics always try to shift the blame on people, away from the scriptures, but the fact is that the scriptures are the root cause of all the problems created by religions. Not the people who were indoctrinated into the religions of their parents. its the laws to live, if we live without rules we are savages. Holy religious books do not stops you from any beneficial thing or action it only stops you from what is wrong and harmful for humanity. Is killing gays wrong or not, in your opinion? |
|
|
|
Just stop this 'free will' nonsense...
Our world can be deterministic or non-deterministic. There is no other choice.
...
Actually there is a third option. The universe including all time and space could be an imagined deterministic creation in which the creations are imagined to be free. ... The Izbicer Rebbe and Freewill http://www.theapj.com/the-izbicer-rebbe-and-freewill-2/You just babble without thinking, or you are unable to think. Which one is it? Your 'third' option is the "first" option. Even if we live in the deterministic simulation. Fuck, you are a walking, talking proof that religions cause permanent brain damage.I am sorry af_newbie but if you want to understand this topic you are going to have to put in a little more effort. However emotional satisfying you find it calling people sadistic and brain damaged it just makes you look silly. You are simply not understanding what in my opinion is the most elegant of the solutions to the free will problem. Izbicer demonstrates is that it is possible for agents to be free, relative to the fiction that they live in, whilst wholly determined from a God’s eye view. If you want to really understand how this works you will have to do some reading and approach the topic with an open mind. The Izbicer Rebbe and Freewillhttp://www.theapj.com/the-izbicer-rebbe-and-freewill-2/
Did you just conceit that the moral code is relative to the culture that adopts it?
...
Moral code evolves as our cultures evolve.
...
You just validated two things: that the morals are relative to the culture they were developed in, and that God did not write the ...moral code,... If it was the creator of space and time, he would have given transcendent, objective (to any culture) moral code.
No I said that the proper instantiation of the objective moral code can vary across changing circumstances. The command love your neighbor as yourself for example can cause you to act in one way in a particular scenario and in an entirely different way in another time and situation. The truth is fixed it’s implementation infinity variable. Societies adherence to objective morality is always flawed. The closeness of the approximation varies hopefully with gradual improvement over time. As BadDecker mentioned human nature does not change much over time on a fundamental level. This is true and it’s the reason why the 10 commandments are as relevant today as there were centuries ago. Society, however, is vastly more complex and powerful then it was 4,000 years ago. Some things that were important in times past are not as relevant or practical in our modern world (animal offerings are an example). When those situations arise one can understand the message of the Bible by attempting to understand why the rule was ideal and necessary 4,000 years ago. Deriving that truth if we can sometimes allows us to extrapolate how that principle would map to the modern world. It’s not an easy process which is perhaps why we have been granted a role model to follow. The ideal if you will. Ask yourself: 'What would Jesus character do?"
"the proper instantiation" is subjective, not objective. I do not understand people like you and BADecker, I cannot believe that you, living in a modern, Western country, can think that people 4000 years ago knew more about the human condition than contemporary scientists and philosophers. You do realize that these people were ignorant, did not know what planet they were on, what Sun was and why they have evolved from other life forms. Their community leaders wrote the Bible to manage growing cities and communities, provide some legal and moral guidance. That is it. I just don't get it. Are you that stupid? Unbelievable!!! |
|
|
|
first of all we can not blame whole community just because of few rotten apples. And i think some of them hate religion because they think different religion are the reason of this extremism and radicalization presence in the world, which is true at all. Some people who are not following religion properly are extremist because no religion of world preach extremism.
What does the Bible or Quran say you should do with the gay people? Religious people are the victims. The worldview presented in the scriptures is what is wrong with religions. Not 'few rotten apples' as you put it. People are born into their religions and become indoctrinated as children. What happens after that depends on who they associate with. Religions poison your mind. All religions are equally evil. The issue is not with 'few rotten apples', the issue is with 'rotten scriptures'. Religious apologetics always try to shift the blame on people, away from the scriptures, but the fact is that the scriptures are the root cause of all the problems created by religions. Not the people who were indoctrinated into the religions of their parents. |
|
|
|
Just stop this 'free will' nonsense, aka. excuse why God fucked up his 'perfect' plan.
Our world can be deterministic or non-deterministic. There is no other choice.
If the world is deterministic, you have no control over what you are going to do next. Your thoughts are driven by all the cause and effects that created thoughts in your brain. The 'choices' your brain produces are the product of C&E your brain experienced before it produced the said 'choices'. The very process of 'choosing the right option' is determined by your previous experiences and the state of your brain.
If the world is non-deterministic, there is some random process that you have no control over it. The thoughts produced by your brain are the result of C&E and some random process over which you have no control. By definition, the 'choices' your brain produces are not really yours but are determined by some random process inside or outside of your brain and the current state of your brain.
...
Our brains are complex automatons capable of creating illusions, including the 'free will' and "me" illusion.
Actually there is a third option. The universe including all time and space could be an imagined deterministic creation in which the creations are imagined to be free. ... You just babble without thinking, or you are unable to think. Which one is it? Your 'third' option is the "first" option. Even if we live in the deterministic simulation. Fuck, you are a walking, talking proof that religions cause permanent brain damage.BTW, I just included the first option for completeness of the argument against the free will. In reality, it looks like the world is driven by more probabilistic, random events first seen in the double split experiment. The first option would be correct if classical, Newtonian mechanics would explain everything we see in the universe, but it does not. As for the simulation argument, it is a long shot. But it is the only shot you religious freaks got, that the world is an infinite chain of simulations run by some alien species. You are a moral relativitist because you do not kill gays for breakfast as the Bible recommends.
The best way to understand the Old Testament of the Bible is as a set of ideal rules for the primitive society it was given to a barbaric primitive corrupt illiterate tribe living in unimaginable squalor surrounded and vastly outnumbered by more powerful pagan cultures. It should be viewed as the necessary rules for that society to survive and thrive in their utterly hostile environment. Did you just conceit that the moral code is relative to the culture that adopts it? The Bible moral code was written by people from one Bronze Age culture for people from other Bronze Age cultures. Nothing more, nothing else. That is why in today's cultures we have different sets of moral values. Moral code evolves as our cultures evolve. Actions that were accepted to be moral 100 years ago are not moral today, and vice versa. Even our contemporary cultures have different moral standards. Just look around the world, from the Middle East to Africa and Europe. All diametrically different. You just validated two things: that the morals are relative to the culture they were developed in, and that God did not write the Bible/Talmud/Quran moral code, people from those cultures did. If it was the creator of space and time, he would have given transcendent, objective (to any culture) moral code. That did not happen. PS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SQbc0I9_pM |
|
|
|
^^^ You are mixed up regarding this, similar to how you are mixed up about evolution and its theory. Evolution theory exists, but the form of evolution proposed by evolution theory doesn't. How does this apply to gays or transsexuals? God doesn't make gays or transsexuals. God makes people. The idea that God makes gays and transsexuals is only an idea. It is the people, themselves, who turn themselves into gays or transsexuals at times, not God. Just stop this 'free will' nonsense, aka. excuse why God fucked up his 'perfect' plan. Our world can be deterministic or non-deterministic. There is no other choice.If the world is deterministic, you have no control over what you are going to do next. Your thoughts are driven by all the cause and effects that created thoughts in your brain. The 'choices' your brain produces are the product of C&E your brain experienced before it produced the said 'choices'. The very process of 'choosing the right option' is determined by your previous experiences and the state of your brain. If the world is non-deterministic, there is some random process that you have no control over it. The thoughts produced by your brain are the result of C&E and some random process over which you have no control. By definition, the 'choices' your brain produces are not really yours but are determined by some random process inside or outside of your brain and the current state of your brain. Our brain development is a cumulative process during which you have no control over this process. You did not know you were you until you were probably 2-3 years old. Can you consciously control what happens in your dreams? Can you consciously control your liver function? Can you consciously choose to be gay? Try it, let us know how it goes.Our brains are complex automatons capable of creating illusions, including the 'free will' and "me" illusion. |
|
|
|
Are Christians protected from discrimination by our current laws?
Are the transgender people protected from discrimination by the current laws?
You said in the past that you are against extending the discrimination laws to protect the transgender people.
Saying that Christians are discriminated is like saying that WASPs are discriminated in the US. Christians rule the US.
Yes Christians are protected by current law. No individuals with gender dysphoria are not. I am opposed to big government in general and that includes the creation of an ever expanding list of special legally protected classes over time. We need to be reducing government’s size and role in our lives not growing it. At least there is something we agree on. I too oppose big government, but c'mon discrimination laws is not the best way to reduce government. I think you are against this particular group of people because of peer pressure from other Christians. You know that harming people is wrong, but you go with the flow and support this discrimination anyway. For the same reason, 100 years ago, Christians were against giving Blacks or women the same legal protections. Ask yourself: 'What would Jesus character do?" PS. Here you have an example of why moral objectivity is wrong. Other examples from our history are slavery, racial and gender discrimination. You are a moral relativitist because you do not kill gays for breakfast as the Bible recommends. You said yourself that you are against slavery. Where is your moral objectivity? Pushed away into the footprints of history, LOL. PPS. Do you want to trim government size? Close all libraries, digitize books, convert them to one website, where people can check-out books electronically, provide time-based, copyrighted book viewer and you're are done. This would save big bucks, and trim the government payroll numbers. Another much bigger pie is in the military. Bring all troops home, eliminate military bases outside of the US, protect your borders, reduce military personnel. |
|
|
|
You have no empathy for gays and transgender people. You think they are mentally ill. If you had your way, you would remove them from society and lock them up in mental institutions and subjected them to psychiatric treatments. Electric shocks from the 1950s come to mind.
You support discrimination. Discrimination causes harm. Do you enjoy inflicting harm?
Ok now you are flat out being ridiculous. Of course I have empathy for gays and transgender people. I also don’t think people with homosexual tendencies are mentally ill. I have known several highly intelligent and highly functional people who are gay. Gender dysphoria is different story. The 50% attempted suicide rate gives that away if nothing else does. By and large I do not support forced anything and that includes forced psychiatric care or forced incarceration unless there is no other choice. I also oppose forced association against ones genuine religious beliefs. For example your humanist moral relativism religion has left you with a distain for Christianity. I have no problem with you deciding to never to hire Christians in your business. Is that discrimination against Christians you bet it is. I also think such discrimination is very much the wrong thing to do. Nevertheless, not discriminating is not the highest ideal. In this case it should give way to the higher principal of freedom. In regards to Hitler yes his party failed to get a majority of the popular vote but much of the votes he did not get went to other parties that ended up supporting him. The enabling act which officially granted him dictatorial powers letting him pass laws without parliament passed the German with 441 votes in favor. Only the 94 representatives opposed. https://m.dw.com/en/the-law-that-enabled-hitlers-dictatorship/a-16689839Are Christians protected from discrimination by our current laws? Are the transgender people protected from discrimination by the current laws? You said in the past that you are against extending the discrimination laws to protect the transgender people. Saying that Christians are discriminated is like saying that WASPs are discriminated in the US. Christians rule the US. |
|
|
|
|
Show Posts
