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1181  Bitcoin / Hardware wallets / Re: Ledger Recovery - Send your (encrypted) recovery phrase to 3rd parties entities on: June 12, 2023, 11:41:21 AM
Would third parties know if I have my real wallet secured behind a passphrase?
Here is what Ledger say on the issue:

The Ledger Recover service, if used, does not backup your passphrase.

So in theory, no, the third parties would not know if you are using one or more passphrases. But this all depends on whether you trust what Ledger are saying, since I'm sure there will be zero way for the user to actually verify this.
When setting up a passphrase for your Ledger hardware wallet, you basically have two options: insert a passphrase every time you want to get access to "hidden" wallets or attach it to a PIN code, meaning that your passphrase will be recorded somewhere in a hardware wallet's memory and may be extracted and used after a PIN code was entered. In other words, Ledger adds a "Remember me" button for passphrases that essentially negates all the benefits of "25th word" and hidden wallets by making them publicly available for anyone knowing a short PIN code. Given that the Recovery feature doesn't make sense in cases where a user has set up a passphrase since a seed phrase alone is insufficient to get access to coins, it would make sense for Ledger developers to include a passphrase into this encrypted transfer scheme, especially considering the fact that it is equally important for a successful recovery and already sitting in a device's memory. Ledger developers could have issued malicious firmware stealing users' seed phrases and passphrases, but finally decided it would be more beneficial to create a service that people subscribe to and share private keys and identity information with absolutely voluntarily.

More information:

https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/4983095135261-How-to-recover-your-passphrase-accounts-?support=true
https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005214529-How-to-set-up-a-passphrase-?docs=true
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8jiqFYFi698


Please ELI5. What I have learned is that the added passphrase, or the "25th seed word", is a feature all BIP-39 compliant wallets have that generates a new set of keys. It's doesn't matter if the user owns/uses a Trezor, a Ledger, or any kind of hardware or software wallet. If the user enters his 24 seeds + his passphrase, the output will always be his/her "hidden wallet". Are you saying it's not?
1182  Bitcoin / Hardware wallets / Re: Ledger Recovery - Send your (encrypted) recovery phrase to 3rd parties entities on: June 12, 2023, 05:23:34 AM
Is it possible that if a user has enabled the recovery feature, and has his/her data held by a third party, then it's probable that a government entity could issue a written order telling the third party to give them access to then user's coins/savings?
Yes, absolutely. The Ledger co-founder stated as much here:

If you are a Recover user and have your shard into safeguarded by third parties, then yes, a government could subpoeana them and get access to your funds

Ledger also admit it here (under Data & Privacy at the bottom of the page):

Coincover will never pass your information to a third-party unless it has a legal obligation to do so. For example, law enforcement agencies often have extensive criminal investigation powers including the ability to obtain production orders requiring information to be produced. It may result in a criminal offense for any entity supporting Ledger Recover to fail to comply with a production order, but Coincover would always take all reasonable steps to verify a production order before complying with it.


OK, another shower thought. Would third parties know if I have my real wallet secured behind a passphrase? To illustrate, what if I enable Ledger's recovery feature and make that my "fake wallet", but the real wallet is the wallet that uses the same seed phrase BUT hidden behind a passphrase.

It could be useful if you need a wallet to use for plausible deniability.

 Cool
1183  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Should we have a two, or even three, tier fee structure? on: June 12, 2023, 05:12:36 AM
Note that miners don't actually respect the segwit fee structure itself.
What do you mean they don't respect it? That IS how they prioritize transactions they include in their candid block, by computing the fee rate through the transaction weight (ie. what SegWit introduced) and accept the transactions that pay a higher rate.


It's also not about what the miners don't "respect", it's about merely about incentives, which I believe OP never truly considered looking at it from the network's perspective.

From OP's viewpoint,


Should people who effectively clog the blockchain pay a financial penalty. If smaller transactions ( smaller in size, and not in value), were charged a low efficiency fee, and larger ones had to pay quadruple ( say ) fees, then there would be a disincentive to submit so much rubbish on the blockchain. How could this be implemented? Would it require two mempools, or just approval by the miners?


Nothing would change because the miners would still prioritize the transaction that's paying a higher fee than the lower one.

Plus different mempools for financial transactions and dick pics? It would still be the same, miners would remain including those transactions from the dick pic mempool first simply because of the quadruple fees.
1184  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Gensler can destroy the U.S. crypto industry but he can’t kill crypto on: June 11, 2023, 11:39:32 AM
I don’t think he will go far enough to have crypto banned in USA. The other exchanges such as Coinbase, Gemini, Cryptodotcom and Kraken will fight back. Even coinbase said they wouldn’t delist tokens unlike Binance and Robinhood.

Since he wanted to be an advisor for Binance, I think the judge will drop the case due to a conflict in interest. Of course he is going to sue the one company that refused to hire him back in the day. Why he isn’t fired yet is surprising.


While that may be true, I'm afraid that they might not be satisfied. There's still a non-zero chance that those non-elected, high-ranking bureaucrats who were merely appointed in their posts, will become more motivated to go after EVERYTHING if their push against the shitcoins will be a success.

We should always remember that the government always utilizes to FUD to discredit ANY alternatives to their antiquated financial system. We should be vigilant. The sudden surge of regulations is not a coincidence.
1185  Economy / Speculation / Re: Buy the DIP, and HODL! on: June 10, 2023, 10:28:29 AM
To convince myself to keep HODLing during "testy" market moments is to keep telling myself that the Bitcoins I HODL in cold storage is a kind of time deposit placed in a secret Swiss banking account that cannot be touched until the right moment. That moment is when it's trading in a six digit price valuation+. That's why I don't have the same complaints when fees surge, because as a "secret Swiss banking account", you don't use it to pay for coffee transactions. I believe many of you don't want to be like the Bitcoin Pizza Guy. That was probably the worst trading decision of his life.
1186  Economy / Speculation / Re: SEC Lawsuit Against Binance Is Likely To Hit Bitcoin Price on: June 09, 2023, 02:34:58 PM
Quote

SEC Lawsuit Against Binance Is Likely To Hit Bitcoin Price


For Bitcoin, it's always a good investment strategy, and often a winning one, to start buying and HODLing Bitcoin when it is said that "Bitcoin is dead". It's a mere observation that I'm sure many of you have been told or have noticed yourselves.

2015 to 2016 and 2018 to 2019 are years widely known as "dead years" for Bitcoin. Currently it's 2022 to 2023? Cool
1187  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What happens if pools try to maximize fees by congesting the network? on: June 09, 2023, 02:08:37 PM

Wouldn't the remaining 31% of the hash rate include those 10 sat/vb transactions in their blocks?


They'd have less chance than the 69%. Also, the 69% could invalidate them at any time, and at a very low cost, just by making sure they use CPFP. For instance, a 10kb transaction paying 100 sat/vb, requires only a small transaction spending the parent, and invaliding the 10kb one.


I think that even if collusion to engineer a congestion was technically possible, how does that play out in those pool's long term expectation to get incentivized? Such a thing cannot be hidden forever, and the discovery of collusion/dishonesty would make the participants lose confidence in the system, which would probably also make them leave and cause a price crash.

From a game theory point of view, it's better for the pools to do what's best for themselves, but also act honestly and do what's best for the rest of network.
1188  Economy / Speculation / Re: Buy the DIP, and HODL! on: June 09, 2023, 07:40:36 AM
A successful bitcoin hodler is that person who can be flexible with the market price of bitcoin and come up with a different strategy which he will use to accumulate more bitcoin to his investment portfolio in the process of holding for a very long term,because he is prepared psychologically and financially, and has the understanding that some unforseen circumstances can be a barrier towards him accumulating even when he has reached the target quantity of bitcoin. He uses the three methods to accumulate more bitcoin to his investment portfolio,which is either buying at dip,DCA method or buys at lump because he understands what the size of his bitcoin portfolio will be like in the nearest future to come and stay strong on his focus,disregard of what he will pass through to achieve his goal.


In the middle of the confusion and the outrage caused by the SEC, a successful Bitcoin HODLer is also the person who judges the quality of his/her investment by the kind of enemies it makes, and Bitcoin has made some significant enemies out of those high-ranking bureaucrats who are working for the government.

I believe that success shouldn't only be measured through how much value Bitcoin has made for you. It should be measured by how much you want to support its ethos. As a mere HODLer, support = HODL.
1189  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: On Ordinals: Where do you stand? on: June 08, 2023, 03:21:13 PM
I'm actually the stupid one and the most ridiculed among those names, but I'm honored to be in franknbean's list. It probably shows I'm trying to be in the right path of my Bitcoin journey, and listening to the right people.

We shouldn't forget that franknbeans was telling people to support Bitcoin Unlimited, that to be with Roger Ver was the right side, and that users don't need to run full nodes.

actually i was not in group unlimited.. and it was doomad that was the one telling people to not be full nodes..
you cant even get your own story straight let alone the scripts your forum daddy tells you

no wonder doomads clan are so dumb.. their memory lasts about 2 weeks and they forget anything they learned and need forum daddy to hand them a script to recite

if you ever want to try learning. actually look at the block data and code.. dont rely on your forum daddy's scripts


No? Perhaps just Bitcoin XT, Bitcoin Classic, BCash, or any shitcoin Roger Ver shilled? It doesn't matter, you were spreading the big block narrative, and that narrative includes "users don't need to run full nodes". I also doubt DooMAD would tell anyone that users should not run full nodes, but let's wait for his reply.
1190  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Gary Gensler's SEC sues Crypto Influncers and posts on his Twitter as propaganda on: June 08, 2023, 02:56:59 PM
Gensler won't matter anymore, I am so sure of this, he didn't know what is coming for him, Binance exchange has the best lawyers like I've heard, they will go all lent to come out with flying colors, and if Binance win this fight, it's over for SEC and Gensler.

There was a quote and the owner of Binance CZ who is very active on twitter who stated they are spending $1 billion usd in lawyers fees just to fight these lawsuits.

So you know they will have better lawyers than even the U.S government is willing to afford to fight their exchange.
Because they also have Coinbase to fight against at the same time.

At this point I am thinking Gary Gensler is just relying on fear right now because there are other exchanges that want to fight the what his organization is doing aswell with news of Kucoin starting to delist several of the coins listed on their securities tab.


Shower thought. The U.S. government might not stop with shitcoins, where Bitcoin-only HODLers want it to. Because if they're successful in stopping shitcoins, won't it encourage them to start going after Bitcoin as well?

I'm starting to believe shitcoins have their own uses, such as distracting the SEC to keep investigating on them instead of Bitcoin. Hahaha.

 Cool
1191  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: On Ordinals: Where do you stand? on: June 08, 2023, 02:43:54 PM
I've been feeding ChatGPT franky1 posts from this thread and others, gonna post this here because nothing new is being said or revealed. Sorry for not including you in on the fun larry, maybe next time.
that's ok. i prefer to raw unfiltered franky. not that i necessarily agree with him on everything though, especially how he created this new thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5443664.msg61864068#msg61864068

that's really a new low for someone, especially how he disabled people from defending themself and just resorting to impeaching them right off the bat without any fair trial. i guess that's what franky has had to resort to since he can't post here anymore i guess. i'm sure he'll put me on his list of bad people in that thread too. which is kind of unfair how he can just put people in his "frankys list of an idiot group trying to ruin bitcoin to promote a alt network" in the off topic forum where someone that has no context might think he's actually got some factual basis  Shocked

you lose franky if that's what you had to resort to...your behavior franky is unacceptable!!


funny thing is if you look at his list:

Quote from: franky1
doomad, blackhatcoiner, wind_fury, thecodebear, o_e_l_e_o, nutildah, n0nce

these are some of the most solid forum members ever. people that have a good head on their shoulders and always good for some solid input. unlike franky who is just a broken record...at least these people have an open mind. more than i can say for franky.


I'm actually the stupid one and the most ridiculed among those names, but I'm honored to be in franknbean's list. It probably shows I'm trying to be in the right path of my Bitcoin journey, and listening to the right people.

We shouldn't forget that franknbeans was telling people to support Bitcoin Unlimited, that to be with Roger Ver was the right side, and that users don't need to run full nodes.
1192  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Should we have a two, or even three, tier fee structure? on: June 08, 2023, 11:58:49 AM
I think that adding any fee structure to the protocol is a bad idea.

One problem is that it could backfire. For example, your fee structure would encourage splitting up one large transaction into several smaller transactions that would take up more space overall.


It's not just a bad idea, but if a person truly got how Bitcoin actually works, entertaining the idea or merely asking about it, would never have entered the person's mind. I'm sorry for sounding a little arrogant, but it's true, and I'm not claiming that I know everything about Bitcoin either. It's just the way I understand Bitcoin is that, decentralization only works when the participants in the network are honest. And they are kept honest through incentives.

Bitcoin's incentive structure/fee market already works. There's no need to play with it.

Change the current incentive structure, and you cause a domino-effect that might make the behavior of the participants to be more unpredictable. It's better to keep it simple and conservative, just my two sats.
1193  Economy / Economics / Re: China reopening was a flop, if we're heading to deflation, what about Bitcoin? on: June 08, 2023, 11:25:58 AM

The Chinese car industry is a good example, but... I am absolutely sure that this will all end with the introduction of additional duties on Chinese cars, which will cross out the benefits of buying them. The EU will protect its market, as the EU car industry is one of the most important elements of the economy.
The second side of the Chinese car industry is Western technology, without which there are no production lines or high-quality implementation of car functionality.


I also don't believe in the theory of the demographic bomb mentioned by others here. There are lots of countries who managed a transition from a society with a low median age to a high median age without major problems.


"A lot of countries"? I don't think it's a common phenomenon in the Modern Age, especially when the economies of the different parts of the world have gotten so inter-connected, that the loss of momentum in one region of the world could easily be taken advantage of by another region. India, with its growing population, could be in a position to take China's title as the world's manufacturer and source of cheap labor.

Quote

It can be an element lowering economic growth for some years but I believe it won't be dramatic. China (and Asian countries in general, also Japan, Korea etc.) are also known for being quite aggressive using productivity-boosting technologies, for example high tech construction methods with few human workers, or also technology used in care of the elderly, and AI will even improve this situation.


I respect your opinion, and you're probably right, but it's very debatable, and hypothetical. We haven't truly seen it in practice. Plus there's more to the narrative than labor and productivity.
1194  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Should cryptocurrency be banned in a country with a population of 240 million? on: June 07, 2023, 08:10:48 AM
Pressured by FATF. The government complies as the country needs aide.
Pakistan is their own country, no one else can decide for it but their officials and if they say crypto is banned, then it is. Eventually they come to realized they can't actually do it due to BTC's nature.

Its not about population, 240 is small compare to Billions on earth. BTC will survive without Pakistan.


Bitcoin will be wherever it needs to be, including Pakistan to make "markets" more efficient, to fill "gaps" both seen and unseen, and simply to generate more utility for itself.

Like the ransomware "market" for instance. It was only made possible through Bitcoin because it's both censorship-resistant and permissionless. It forced software vendors to update/patch their apps in a more regular basis to keep ransomware hackers away, or else the hackers take some money. That's an unseen gap solved by Bitcoin.
1195  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Mining difficulty at an all time high on: June 06, 2023, 03:55:19 PM
Well there are a few reasons why. The ordinals is one but another reason is that the hardware is more efficient. Since it’s more efficient a mining farm can have a higher hash rate with the same amount of electricity it used. So this is why the hash rate will always keep increasing since we have better chips.

The ordinals is important because the fees are higher than average and it’s attractive to mine because not only do you get block reward but also the miners fee. And a couple of weeks ago the miner fee was also as high as the block reward.
 

Shower thought. Miners are speculators too. How possible is it that miners will mine at a loss now, (assuming that they have enough cash to pay for their bills for the next few months), then just store the coins as "inventory", then sell them at a much better price later?

It also probably presents an answer for the "price follows hashing power vs. hashing power follows price" debate.
1196  Economy / Economics / Re: China reopening was a flop, if we're heading to deflation, what about Bitcoin? on: June 06, 2023, 03:21:09 PM

There's also BRICS. If China implodes, BRICS nations will be playing a game of hot potato, ready to drop each other's fiat currencies.

It's already happening even now:
https://www.wionews.com/world/russia-does-not-know-what-to-do-with-147bn-in-rupees-it-has-amassed-599540

it's nice trying on dealing in shitcoins you can print endlessly, too bad that nobody wants your shitcoins!  Grin


In the fiat world, what makes a World Reserve Currency is the demand for that currency, and nothing compares to the U.S. Dollar in Saveability, Liquidity and Investsbility. It's like a license to print!

Quote

As for China's demographic bomb, it's in the making but it will take time, it needs a full generation to actually show effects, and it will begin when the ones that are right now in their 30+ will reach retirement, according to their own 2010 census, they had 127mil in the 20-24 (now these are 33-37) area only 74, 70, 75 millions in the 0-4,5-9,10-14 groups.

That's a 40 million workers gap nobody will be able to manage!


Plus the problem can't just be solved easily by changing the One Child Policy to their current Three Child Policy because China has a gender demographic problem as well. There's an imbalance in ther male-to-female ratio towards more males in the population. That means less child-bearing people available besides the low birth rate of their females.
1197  Bitcoin / Hardware wallets / Re: Ledger Recovery - Send your (encrypted) recovery phrase to 3rd parties entities on: June 06, 2023, 07:20:32 AM
Shower thought. Is it possible that if a user has enabled the recovery feature, and has his/her data held by a third party, then it's probable that a government entity could issue a written order telling the third party to give them access to then user's coins/savings?

Because I believe the user has given up some of his/her rights upon upload of his/her own data. Don't third parties always have Terms of Agreement that users never read?

 Cool

Yes, that's unlikely to happen for an average user but definitely possible and that's another reason why someone should avoid Ledger Recover service.
By the way, ToS is a joke. If you read ToS of companies you frequently use or if you read the list of side effects of every meds, you are not going to use them ever in your life but the problem is that you need to use that particular service or product and because of that 99% of people just agree and move on.

There was a discussion about Ledger Recover and subpoena in podcast with the CEO of Ledger.
Have a look at these moments:
https://youtu.be/M3VjQUcyZSY?t=929
https://youtu.be/M3VjQUcyZSY?t=2610


The actual point isn't if it's possible or not. It's if your Bitcoins are still your Bitcoins while you're storing it in a Ledger. To which, if a government entity could coerce a third party to give up "your" keys/seed phrase, then it's most definitely NOT your Bitcoins.

1198  Economy / Economics / Re: China reopening was a flop, if we're heading to deflation, what about Bitcoin? on: June 06, 2023, 07:03:11 AM
Had to chop the title so it really sucks but I can't do better right now!  Angry

With everyone focused on the debt of the US, the freezing Europeans, yeah lol, there is some really bad news on the horizon and for all sides in this game. If a slowdown in the Western world could be explained by jumping energy prices last year, prices that have since gone down to 2013 levels when it comes to pipe gas, in China manufacturing is dropping right after the reopening, at a continuous pace and despite the downturn in both raw materials and energy prices, copper, coal, iron, steel, wheat, everything is sliding with the PMI alongside.

So, to not be biased and using only the English version of the mouthpiece of the Chinese government:

China’s factory activity growth falters in March due to weaker demand, slowing production
China’s factory activity dipped in April on weak demand as bumpy post-Covid economic recovery continue
China’s official manufacturing purchasing managers’ index (PMI) fell to 48.8 in May from 49.2 in April


It's probably because China has been the most aggressive in locking down their country during the pandemic. Plus the above average growth their economy was only made possible through the above average growth of their national debt. It is not sustainable.

Quote

And things get worse, remember this is Chinese information, so take it with a grain of salt since it might be far worse:

Quote

Youth unemployment has become one of Beijing’s biggest economic headaches amid its recovery efforts, and in April, 20.4 per cent of China’s 16-24 age group were unemployed, up from 19.6 per cent in March.


So no manufacturing so now jobs for the not qualified, no jobs for the young ones that have finished college, which is a different area, and this can lead only to one direction.


But it IS far worse. China is going through a population implosion caused by decades and decades of their One Child Policy. In time, there won't be enough young people to tax to take care of their retirees.

Quote

If the economic slowdown is present everywhere, China and the Western World, manufacturing is affected on all continents there is only one culprit in sight, and that is demand destruction, and with this, there is a chance we might end in a deflation period if things don't change.

There is simply no demand, and with no demand, there are two choices, prices going down, which means obvious deflation, or bankruptcies which I doubt anyone is that stupid to do before trying the first solution, but the first choice is pretty hard to do when you just had an influx of free money and the rate rises have not yet started to be serious enough.

There is an interesting piece on this from Forbes:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2023/05/13/more-proof-deflation-is-the-future/
of course, it's just an opinion and I will from the start warn you it's a bit speculative even with the data presented but it ends with the same warning as many others on the incoming deflation, although their take on what to do and what next is really not my cup of tea.

Now, slowly turning from this to Bitcoin.

Bitcoin was mainly designed as a p2p way of exchanging and transmitting value, due to its limited supply it turned into a way of safekeeping your wealth and further down the line evolved into an investment!

Now, assuming all the required stars align and we really head into a deflationary period for fiat currencies, how will the price of Bitcoin react, since this is the only thing that can be affected by the economy, the rest, the p2p payments, the cold storage, the be your own bank will for sure not be affected, but lately those are of less interest and the focus is on the price most of the time.

For sure, Bitcoin has the required advantage to erase all fears, that is adoption, unlike other commodities it can still attract users, and since I don't really believe those hundreds of millions of users quoted by most sources right now I can safely bet in my mind an x10 adoption rate would be doable at any time from the current moment. But, the question is, will it happen in this short span with enough traction?


During times of deflation, fiat currencies like the Dollar become more scarce, it encourages people to save more/spend less, then therefore its value goes up.

- Because Bitcoin's value is obtained against the Dollar, then Bitcoin's value goes down. I believe a golden opportunity for HODLers.

Quote

So, to make this long story short, two simple opinions:
- do you believe we're heading to deflation?
- how do you think the price of BTC will be influenced if we do so?


Probably just a "period of deflation" before BRRR-Money Printing by the Cabal, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5433243.0

There's also BRICS. If China implodes, BRICS nations will be playing a game of hot potato, ready to drop each other's fiat currencies.
1199  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: NFTs in the Bitcoin blockchain - Ordinal Theory on: June 06, 2023, 04:41:59 AM
[edited out ]

Since you said that you have listened to all of the episodes in his podcast, then you probably have heard him talk about his viewpoint?


Seems to me that I listened to a lot of podcasts in which Rodamor was at least one of the participants, and I would not claim to listen to or understand any of substantive meaning, yet I still know that there is a lot of podcast content that I mentioned to you and even provided a link to one of them in which Rodamor shared in hosting it, so that if you, yourself, had wanted to listen to Rodamor, then you could do that.  

To the extent to which that you were "asking questions" rather than making accusations in regards to Rodamor, to me, sometimes it seems that a certain amount of work, research looking into the matter and exploration is better to be made when throwing out certain seemingly FUD spreading theories about negative motives that anyone might have (especially if it seems possible to me that you likely had been getting some of your nonsense thoughts from questionable sources (or maybe you just come up with them on your own).. even if one of them might not have had been Greg.. hahahahaha - because the actual source (Rodamor's tweet) provided you ammunition to extrapolate nonsense, seemingly dumb and ill-explored thoughts from that relatively small piece of information)....


If that's how your mind works, then OK, I will have nothing more to say. I have taken enough crap from franky1 A.K.A. franknbeans to know that something will be a never-ending debate about nothing. I'll put you in my ignore list for now.

Quote

(hahahahahaha - and I am not even hating on you)


Who said you were hating on anyone?

 Cool

ANYWAY, without derailing the topic any further, I'll requote a post by gmaxwell that everyone should actually read, and learn from.

Many people probably, for the right or wrong reasons, don't agree with the Core Developers, but I believe their hearts are in the right place.

From a technical viewpoint, Bitcoin's code was changed with the Taproot patch that moved Bitcoin away from being purely a peer-to-peer electronic payment system as Satoshi envisioned, to include the "latest thing". One of the developers referred to this as "security regression." This is not what Bitcoin was designed to be.
You're getting tricked by misinformation-- what I suspect is some intentional consensus cracking (especially since we know most if not all of the BRC-20 stuff is being funded by Ayre & related entities) though it might just be confusion.

This stuff doesn't have anything to do with taproot-- to prove this to yourself go start up node software from 2019 before the taproot bip was even proposed and observe that accepts this stuff just fine.

You could potentially attribute the attack to segwit in the sense that it increased the block size which made more room for junk but to the extent that your complaint is that fees have been driven up, the same attack would have worked prior to segwit.  It's also easy to see that people were embedding irrelevant data in Bitcoin long before segwit (fine example being the Bitcoin Whitepaper).

If you want to complain instead that the attack is bloating the blockchain on disk of archival nodes or that its increasing the data that must be transferred during IBD-- then it's fine to criticize segwit but otoh where the hell were you when there was extremely widespread demand for additional capacity? -- it's not like bloating up the chain is a surprising result: it's the reasonable and expected downside of increasing the capacity.

It's important when contemplating an attack to realize that the attackers have every reason to mislead about the nature of the attack and the enabling factors.

Another piece of measing narrative craft-- one I've seen rodarmor fall for, in fact describing his action as a kick in the teeth to bitcoin developers-- is the false claim that these ordinals translations are in any way charged lower fees by the network.  This isn't true.  The network doesn't set fees at all, they're established by the users competitively bidding for access to capacity.  Miners accept transactions in order of most fees per unit capacity down until the block is full.  Every transaction competes equally(*) and needs to pay based on the capacity it uses.

The deceptive discount claim dupes people for two reasons:  The first is because Bitcoin's block limit isn't measured in bytes, it's measured in weight.  But because the limit works on weight so do fee calculations.  If the limits was a limit on bytes (or the complaint was how much space archived nodes are using) but the fees miners demanded were irrationally calculated based on something else then it would be correct to say there was a discount, but there isn't.  The second is because segwit did in fact lower fees-- but it did so purely because it increased capacity resulting in a lower equilibrium fee rate. (Again, that's what people demanded.  Good job, you got what you wanted...)

If someone wants to say "because segwit, witness data like signature or witness-embeded garbage uses less capacity" -- then THAT would be true. Witness data using less capacity remains well justified: it should because it's prunable and doesn't have to be stored long term just to run a node at all.  Making this data use *more* capacity wouldn't diminish its effect on driving up transaction fees, it would *increase it*, because it would be using more capacity which could otherwise be used for other transactions.

To the extent that some misguided idiots want to store data in the blockchain the fact that it uses less capacity than it would without segwit only helps mitigate the harm.

To the extent that high fees are from an attack intending to drive up fees it's irrelevant in any case: no matter how it works the attacker has to pay in the fees of the next best transaction they displace in each block they displace it.

(*) ignoring things like CPFP which make some transactions more profitable then their fees imply due to having high-fee children.

1200  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: NFTs in the Bitcoin blockchain - Ordinal Theory on: June 05, 2023, 08:11:22 AM
Plus WHO is Casey Rodarmor? Where was he during the scaling debate, and which side of the debate did he go in favor? What were his other contributions in Bitcoin?
Maybe he's a new BTC developer.
Obviously, but WHO is he, and what were his other contributions in Bitcoin, or open source? Have you noticed that Google has very little information about him before Ordinals? Plus in gmaxwell's post, why would he tweet something like, "Really a kick in the teeth for the authors of segwit", with an added piece of misinformation.
https://twitter.com/rodarmor/status/1614076795082641410
"Kick in the teeth"? Is he saying that with vindictiveness?
I doubt that Casey Rodamor is even close to the "villian" that you are suggesting that he might be.. even if some of the later developments might have been to strive to evolve cardinals/inscriptions into various ways to attempt to attack bitcoin - whether physically and/or socially.   and your harping on his "kick in the teeth" post was already characterized by GMaxwell as a misunderstanding that Rodamor seemed to have had, rather than as if Rodamor was wanting to be "vindicitive" as you seem to want to read into the situation, Wind_FURY.
I know it's sometimes hard to interpret the tone behind a forum post. I assure you that I was asking for opinions with sincerity if truly there's some vindictiveness in that tweet. Because for me there's a softer way of phrasing it instead of "kick in the teeth", followed by, I'll stop saying it's misinformation, the wrong assumption.
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Rodamor seems to have a decent amount of skills to have had identified ways to get the cardinals/inscription thing going on bitcoin.. within the available rules.. I doubt that he would characterize himself as a new developer, but I recall that he had said that he had worked at Coinbase for a while, and he had said something about reviewing bitcoin code.. and may even participating in some of the discussions around development, which he likely would have to have some programming skills and abilities to know how the cardinal/inscriptions code would fit into being used in bitcoin, since he seems to have had been innovative in terms of the way that ordinals/inscriptions were introduced.. and that it was a kind of niche that no one had previously exploited (whether thinking about exploiting in a good or a bad way... which I am still not presuming ordinals/inscriptions to necessarily be bad even though there seems to be some later evidence that some of the BRC20 angle of the ordinals are being manipulated by Ayer/Wright - even if Greg (Gmaxwell) might not wanted to have wanted to use shittwat Wright's name within this discussion.

Rodamor had discussed cardinals and inscriptions on several bitcoin podcasts and gave reasons why to develop cardinals/inscriptions on bitcoin (and why not do it on shitcoins)... He had quite a few appearances on podcasts - especially right around the time that the cardinals/inscriptions went live in January/February 2023  (do you need me to provide some links? so you can actually listen to the ways that he discusses how he got into the ideas of cardinals/inscriptions), and he even has his own podcast (and has not had a new episode in the last few months)
I don't doubt his skills as a coder. I was merely curious what his previous contribitions were, because there's mostly nothing said about him before Ordinals when I do a search.

His opinion and what was he in favor during the scaling debate will truly say a lot about him. I'm not saying it will be good or bad, I'm not here to judge him. Merely curious.

Of course, it is not easy to judge character of any of the people in the bitcoin space, and sometimes they might seem genuine, but really have evil motives... so sometimes any of us might go by our own hunches, and even though Rodamor is not completely famous, there is quite a bit of content out there of him participating in interviews, discussions, talking about himself and talking about his views of bitcoin and various bitcoin related matters, including arts and some of his distastes that has evolved regarding scams in the shitcoin space (especially ethereum).   I just happened to have had listened to most (if not all) of the Hell Podcast episodes after I had heard Rodamor in an interview in some other podcast  (probably around the end of 2022), and Rodamor is pretty well liked (and even trusted to be a genuine and good actor) by a lot of folks in the bitcoin maximalist circles, even though some of the bitcoin maximalists did not really like some of what he had done in regards to cardinals/inscriptions, but I think that Rodamor has been able to defend himself quite well in terms of working within the code and largely having decently good intentions in terms of trying to expand bitcoin's use cases.. and I am not even suggesting that I necessarily agree with him and/or all of the points that he makes.. and surely I have not been hearing (or seeing him) much in the past couple of months, including that I doubt that he had much involvement in the BRC20 developments...

I don't have any problem with your wanting to be skeptical of motives of some persons in the bitcoin space, including persons that you don't know very well in terms of having had not seen their content,


I'm not skeptical of his motives, I'm just curious on what he was in favor for during the scaling debate, Segwit or bigger blocks. Merely a personal curiosity, although he's a smart guy. He probably supported Segwit.

Since you said that you have listened to all of the episodes in his podcast, then you probably have heard him talk about his viewpoint?

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but I doubt that Rodamor is as evasive and lacking as content as you seem to be making him out to be, and likely when you are making superficial assertions about his potential vindictiveness or evil intents, you may well be getting that kind of information from bad and/or ill-informed sources... even if Greg was one of your sources.. hahahahahaha for the "kick in the teeth" reference.


I never said or suggested he's evasive, but there is lacking content about what he was doing before Ordinals. I also never said that he was vindictive, I asked what everyone thought about his proclamation in his tweet, whether it sounded vindictive or not.

Plus gmaxwell isn't the source, Casey literally posted it himself in a tweet.

I think it's usually useless to debate motivations: either it's unambiguous, in which case there is no debate... or it's not and there will be no resolution.  


You're right, I'll stop asking.

 Cool
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