Well, we all pretty much knew that home mining was dead. Here is an article stating such.

Indeed, it could be stated that anything above 6c kWh electric and a big mining farm (with equipment other than Bitmain L3+'s and Bitmain S9's that are the end of life,

I know a LOT of big data halls with these as the majority of units) with NEW equipment. Perhaps that is why we are seeing the massive rush of huge farms, as the

last nail in the coffin for folks who can't dump 100's of thousands into the latest ASIC equipment. Anyway, for the price of the ASIC equipment and the price of BTC/Crypto,

and the somewhat impossible difficulty that will result fromt these huge miner farms springing up worldwide..well, again, I don't get it.

On the other hand maybe 'big money' and 'big institutional money' are getting into BTC/Crypto in the same manner that the big bulk of newbies got into BTC in 2013.

As a newbie, the thought of 'buying' BTC and hodl'ing was scary as f*ck. But dumping $5,131.80 on a KNC Jupiter Bitcoin Miner, that arrived in s 'soggy' rain-soaked box,

full of 1/2 glass of water, and had NO power switch! (I had to call you had to use a paper clip on specific pinouts on the PSU to start it up..gasp!...damn, such a newb I was!

So maybe this all makes sense if institutional money is coming into BTC/Crypto and it is an easier sell with tangible equipment and equipment deductions etc.

Just because the current round of BTC/Crypto Mining, with big money, seems 'odd' to me, does not mean, even with deeper pockets the money coming in is just

as clueless as to the newbie money we all spent on BTC/Crypto, as newbs, back in the day. So hell, maybe this is a good sign? Just newbs, as usual, getting into mining

with more money, than sense...it all seems so familiar.

link:

https://cointelegraph.com/news/btc-miners-no-more-basement-rigs-greater-profits-to-come

later

Brad

Likely, now that we are under 'electronics' so to speak here, this will be the LAST tariff lifted, in that it is the elephant in the room as far as imported China goods, IMHO.

From what I gather, this first phase is mostly agriculture and misc.

Yep! If you HODL it has to all pretty much go beanie babies/etc, for you to lose your mind. Trading would give me the shakes. I am still trying to 'attic mine' (sell stuff on eBay for $$$ and

then buy BTC for some dust)

...I moved my ONE never to ROI Bitmain s9i over to Slush at 2% fee and 4 years 9 months I think it said since I last mined. I sure like the number I had on slush then. I musta

locked in my BTC address (never to be changed according to slush) back in the day, no biggie...at the meager amount I can mine it can go from empty to a hot wallet)

I sure hope BTC goes the same direction that it did when I dumped my last BTC miner off slush, 4 years and 9 months ago. (hell, maybe that was just the last time I logged on?)

anyway, knowing BTC it will be 'extreme' no matter which way the wind blows..its how BTC rolls.

(Bitcoin: Always Drama!)

This is why I'm in HODL mode, that way I always know if/when/how I play it wrong and get screwed..at least it is always from the same spot...HODL Mode...

(Bitcoin: Love me long time?)

Brad

In the bleachers, watching the pro's play down on the field of action...eating popcorn...no way to play even at my little league level with the 25% Tariff in play and/or the USA electric at 9.5c to 10c kWh. Thus, have to get more popcorn...

I did the math on the above at my 'bad' rate of electric of 10c kWh and $9,350.00 USD Bitcoin Price. Using What To Mine site: https://whattomine.com/asic. I get $5.82 a day. At flat difficulty (impossible...but go with this) that is a $5.82 a day into $2,111.00 without shipping nor a USA 27.6% import fee and Tariff as such.

360.85 days ROI, again at a flat difficulty and current $9,350.00 USD price. Getting a bit better, but still way, way, too rich for my blood. Again, IMHO. So I sit here with 'splinters' in my ass on the bleachers watching the others on here, on the field, with the ASIC play by play....alas

later

Brad

Big whoop. Bitmain L3+ units are all gonna dump off to the side, due to miner capitulation for the new product in the next 3 months anyway, even if the price goes up for LTC over $100

an LTC. That is just the way mining works. The difference today is the large percentage of units that are NOW the majority of hash for scrypt-pow and sha-256 mining. The Bitmain L3+

for scrypt-pow and the Bitmain S9 for sha-256. I estimate more than 60% of the ASIC equipment on both networks are these too models. Thus when they go 'poof' it will be in a big way.

Either it will help price. (difficulty dumps) or it will kill price (all those miners not hodl'ing LTC and BTC from their mining efforts)

I guess we will see

using your figures above I can't get. The best I can get with the latest mods (stable) is 450mh at 650 watts...but we will use your numbers. you get -28c per day.

Using my numbers at 10c kWh above I get at best: -41c per day at the previous posts, I think it was $65.35 LTC?

Anyway, it is all moot. The equipment I mention above can only yo/yo so long on off/on the network and can only drift back into the network, again yo/yo in out or trickle back

if the price of LTC gets above $100 USD again. Otherwise, eventually folk will be tired of running these units at a loss. Or hell, at least the big boys. 10 L3+ units would lose at

best with your figures -$2.80 a day...so eventually, it will trickle down to those Bitmain units for heating the basement (1 or 2 units at best).

But going from the past (from 2013 onward) what usually happens is for months, (note: Innsolicoin A2's back in the day) at best with a price rise of LTC or scypt-pow you just

mine for 2-3 months at the same loss as the price of LTC goes up and your equipment gets more useless for the prospect at mining. That may not be a bad thing if you held back

in the day those extra 2-3 months with today's prices, but gets damn old at data hall use, when it reaches the point for 2-3 months of just swapping electric for LTC direct.

Eventually, stuff goes off. But again, that will be a pretty big dump at 60% ofr equipment fading out in more or less 2-3 months, much worse for LTC if the price is sideways, same

as now if the price goes up to over $100 vs difficulty etc. Anyway, not seeing a lot in the wings that makes sense. Innsolicon units make $2 a day or some such profit and the

2 models available are $2k and $3k respectively without shipping and Trump Tax/Import Tax at 27.6%. So either these miners going off won't affect price so much for the

equipment and such difficulty and price/coin output when they wander off the network. Or such a dump of equipment and lack of miners HODL'ing LTC will cause another

dump in price. Chump or Champ we will be the first to know. But different from the Innsilcoin A2's dumping off because KNC Titans and other ASIC's replaced such, back in

the day. Now, don't see anything much.  Anyway, just know that at 10c kWh it is very unlikely my L3+'s will ever be turned back on in the future at the data hall. I'd need

quite the price miracle for that to happen. Good luck to those with say 8c kWh electric and the Innsolicon equipment, you might not ROI at the equipment purchased that

is newer..but hell, at least you'll be mining and hopefully HODL'ing as your hedge on all this. I look like I'm out for good. At least with my Bitmain L3+'s in mass.

Brad

Ok ..I'll take that bet.

www.litecoinpool.org/calc a free LTC pool pays out 105% currently.

Lets call it 650 watts at say 425mh...does that sound fair?

You get this: A loss of -49c a day vs the previous -66c a day in my previous post.

                                      Profitability Analysis
          Expected Rewards      Costs            Net                        Profit
24 hours   0.01715103 LTC   1.07 USD           1.56 USD            -0.49 USD
7 days   0.12005724 LTC   7.49 USD         10.92 USD            -3.43 USD
30 days   0.51453104 LTC   32.08 USD       46.80 USD          -14.72 USD


The main thing to take away from the previous post, IMHO, is the 60% decline in difficulty and the still low price. IF say price hits $100 an LTC even, it is

my view you still would be losing say -50c a  day on this whole endeavor as tht Bitmain L3+'s wane in and out.  Only with a lot over $100, say $150 and difficulty

finally putting full miner capitulation into this massive amount of Bitmain L3+'s in the world as not being able to mine, will you then be able to see price and the

halving results for new miners. Until then it is gonna yo/yo the next 2-3 months, not amounting to much more, again, IMHO than the current say at least -50c a day

loss on mining these beasties. They still want like $2k and $3k for the Innsiliocon scrypt miner models that make $2 and $3 a day respectively..so no hope in mining

from that direction. Gonna be a muddied mess for a while or at best, if  your electric is cheap enough and you have already ROI'd on equipment, MAYBE you can swap

electric for coin even up for awhile. Maybe even use the heat if you are in Winter parts of the world. But until all the Bitmain L3+ units, again, I'd guess 60% of all

scrypt miners, stumble off the mining field, miners are gonna sell LTC they mine to break even at best and it is gonna be a muddied mess price/difficulty and on any

choice by consumers on miners and any real excitement by ASIC makers to pursue new equipment. As an aside, this will also come  to pass, likely about the same time,

with all the models of Bitmain S9's of many flavors. The same thing, they account, again IMHO, for 60% of all sha-256 miners and they need to leave the field as well

for the BTC market to also steady out mining/price and difficulty wise. So gonna be tough to mine in any manner for the next 2-3 months IMHO past your electric use,

even if you have already ROI'd on a Bitmain L3+. Of course, a huge price pump to $150 for LTC could make this all moot, but not counting on it.

Brad

Well....according to the below article...the difficulty on Litecoin is down 60% in 3 months or some such.

https://beincrypto.com/litecoin-hashrate-down-60-but-mining-profitability-stabilizing

www.litecoinpool.org/calc

This is a stock 500mh 800 watt Bitmain L3+ at $62.35 LTC price and at 10c kWh. Shows a loss of -66c per day!

This is from www.litecoinpool.org/calc a free LTC pool that pays at 105%!


           Expected                     Rewards        Costs        Net Profit
24 hours   0.02017769 LTC   1.26 USD   1.92 USD        -0.66 USD     
7 days   0.14124382 LTC   8.81 USD   13.44 USD      -4.63 USD
30 days   0.60533064 LTC   37.74 USD 57.60 USD    -19.86 USD

So, the great deal of yo/yo'ing shall begin now as we creep closer and closer to break even on electricity..difficulty will go up as those (IMHO) 60% or

so of difficulty that went off the network now trickles back. Mainly, (IMHO) Bitmain L3+'s that will account for most of it.

This is gonna be ugly. So I suspect that even though the price goes up, the difficulty will also go up to a point that indeed, I would expect with stuff being turned back on

even at $100 LTC, a person likely would still be losing at least -50c per day mining Litecoin. At least at a 10c kWh price frame.

I think it is gonna take more than a few months for all this to shake out to where the difficulty of LTC and the price have finally shaken out the 60% (or more) of

Bitmain L3+'s as unprofitable. So until there is complete miner capitulation on these units, Litecoin price and mining are gonna be in for a rough time yet.

Indeed $100 USD LTC now would give a profit of 10c per day, not accounting for the rise in difficulty from this mass of Bitmain L3+ units coming back on as

difficulty goes up again. We'd need something like $150 Litecoin at least IMHO, to prove my guesses above wrong. (Well, a guy can hope anyway)

Price and Difficulty are gonna slam themselves back and forth over these units' demise for at least a couple more months. Again, IMHO.

later

Brad

Hmmm.....I wonder though if they allow buying drugs in Canada to the USA without issues if they would allow 'Computer Servers' purchased USED in Canada via your Automobile. I guess it comes down to if at the USA border they would believe your claim or not. Likely, you'd get away with 1-2 for 'personal use' but anything more, not so much. I give it a 50/50 shot. I'd assume they'd call someone and find out it was an ASIC miner and you'd likely get tag'd or have to go back to Canada with it.

The problem with ASIC equipment is it is just exotic enough that border agents have probably seen it and remember such. Just saying. So sure, give it a try, but have your buddy follow in his car if you don't want to pay the tariff and have it go back.

There also is a 15% vat in Canada (15% National I think it was and 10% province...something like that) so in reality you are talking 12.6% more anyway. For that difference, you could just as well host it in Canada. But then again, if not too much trouble might be worth the hassle if you live in Minnesota or some such.

Anyway, my view, not that it means spit. I am in Minnesota and I don't plan to do this at these ASIC prices anyway.

Brad

On the other hand....the original folk that got into BTC were mostly miners. That is how I and my peers got into BTC/Crypto.

It could be the same thing, only with big investors, in 20/20 hindsight it probably would have worked no worse for me tho HODL coin back

in the day than mine. But on the other hand, the physical item, the 25% off equipment depreciation, a business....the folk with more $$$ then

sense like I used to be, back in the day. Or institutional money may be more 'comfortable' with this as an option to get BTC/Crypto, then flat out buying BTC/Crypto.

Unsure, but I know back in 2013 when I 'drank the BTC kool-aid' ...I went frigging crazy on mining coins for fun and profit.

Maybe, its the same, only we are attracting new 'newbies' with deeper pockets and/or institutional $$$ to blow in the usual newbie optimistic way.

just saying

Brad

Well, you can look at it like this:

(1) IF the reason BTC prices are were they are at on speculation that the price will rise and it is because the stock market is high and the economy is good...

and using this extra discretionary spending in good times on Bitcoin...well, it could be that the market crash would affect Bitcoin in a negative way, price-wise.

In other words, you'd want to buy BTC, but with stock market down and economy going down, etc, you no longer have the discretionary extra income to do buy BTC and thus a slump in price/usage/etc.

{2) IF on the other hand Bitcoin is like virtual real estate, like only 21 million coin and 3 million BTC left, and holding like land. Or how I view BTC as a limited asset.

 (less and less available on adoption worldwide when the recession hits)  and in a stock market downturn acts like 'virtual gold' kinda/sorta like a 'store of value' in bad economic times and a

stock market downturn..then likely it would act as a store of value like gold and go sideways, maybe up a little in value, but at worse would not tank the 20% like the stock market to be

called a recession or even further.


So make your bet. I'm HODL'ing BTC now because with my state taxes and capital gain taxes if I sold BTC that is 25% gone poof....if I put these newly converted BTC to $$$ into the stock market

and we have a recession (20% correction on the stock market is a recession) now I'm 45% down and with the antics of the Trump Administration I am myself assuming at least for a bit a 40% downturn

which would make my play of BTC to cash a 65% loss. Also, the rule of thumb used to be 3-7 years on a recession for the stock market to come back. A lot of those in the know are guessing 7-12 years

on the next recession to come back from it. So IMHO, now is NOT the time to diversify some BTC into the stock market, especially at what is now the ATH in the USA. Wait, till a recession and stuff

goes off the rails and then get stocks if you wish or real estate or whatever. Myself, I would be very despondent, if I converted BTC to USD into stocks now and then we had a recession at 40% and

I'd be looking at a 65% loss...just to watch BTC and gold go sideways and/or up.

Thus my bet is to HODL the hoard and hang in there with traditional stocks as well. Have no debt for the next few years if possible and live within your means. I've gone thru like 5 recessions, they

suck and usually you blame yourself for job loss or whatever, when they happen, even though most of this stuff on 20/20 hindsight will be out of your control. So pay the J.C. Penny card off. Buy

some new tires. Do SOMETHING! Before the recession hits. If I am dead wrong, well, you have your finances in order...but if I'm right, you won't beat yourself up about such stuff in that at least

you did something pro-actively.

end of my rant (my coping mechanisms above anyway)

later

Brad

Not in the USA. My data hall rates are 9.5c to 10c kWh. My home electric rates shot up dramatically in the last 1-2 years from around 12c summer rates and 10c winter rates  

at the home to 17.29c kWh Summer rates and my guess of around 15c kWh Winter rates. UGH!

Add the 25% tariff and further reason not to mine in any way, shape or form.

Add the increase (from what I can tell) of equivalent chips 16nm in bigger boxes for 1/3 more money since around May 2019, IMHO, and that further

complicates mining.

And the fact the ABOVE all sell out, driving up difficulty is not helping much in this regard either.

and lastly, the price of BTC does NOT reflect, even without tariff any way/shape/form should you mine.

The only mining I'm doing is "Attic Mining". You sell the crap out of attic or storage or whatever, on eBay you would otherwise

die with for BTC/Crypto dust. If you are wrong, worst that happens is you lost some time and gained some space in the house. In my case, future

rec room in the attic...but if you are right and BTC hits the ATH again, you are a genius! win/win IMHO.

I do like to watch mining as a 'spectator sport' but I'm in the bleachers just HODL'ing and doing above to add to the BTC/Crypto hoard!

my 2 satoshis worth of advice

later

Brad

I don't suppose there is something that would help the 25% Tariff in the USA, like the T17 being shipped from Maylasia and the S17 being shipped from China?

I'm not getting any, but anything like that going on with various models that folks can tell? Sorry, just a thought?

later

Brad

well...looks like they are both a scam..nice try though newbie!

The payout makes no sense for any of these units anyway, much like all ASIC's of any flavor at this time. Due to current low BTC/Crypto prices and difficulty

rising fast as hell, and of course the increase (by 1/3 my estimation) in pricing, since June 2019, on all ASIC miners of any flavor. Anyway, none of these Dayun Zig Z1's are available

anyway from what I can tell. Not the above links that are for sure (scammer links)

later

brad

Yep, thus my view on why China is NOT beating up on Bitcoin/Crypto, because the USA is sitting on hands with nothing going on with Libra or whatever, thus anything,

even a side-line Bitcoin as a store of value (according to China folk in power..guess that is) devalues th usa dollar a lot more than the China Crypto devalues the Yen

in their crypto coin launch. win/win. When their 'supposed' Chinese government-sponsored Crypto takes off as they hope, and they can xfer it to an fro to the Yen...and it

has an in/out with Bitcoin rather than the USA dollar...all is good in the view of the powers that be in China. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Not sure it will fly, but

seems to be the direction those in China in power are coming from at this time.

But what do I know? I spend way to much time thinking about such stuff ..when I should be selling useless crap out of my attic on eBay and getting more BTC/Crypto dust!

Attic Mining (tm Searing) Boring as snail racing ..but hey BTC dust is BTC dust.

I resemble the above post.

But at 17.29c kWh electric at the house this Summer and 15c kWh winter rates my home mining days are gone. Best data hall rates I can find that take small fry without setup fees etc and hidden fees are 9.5c to 10c kWh. (and not moving the works to Canada).

so I attic mine...sell stuff out of the attic I'd otherwise die with ..if not for BTC....unlikely this will work...but maybe I can get around the sheer utter boredom of such by getting some BTC dust. All I got for now, at these prices and difficulty and madness of ASIC miner prices etc, the boat as they say don't float.

The needs must when the devil drives...

later

brad

Well, this is interesting:

https://www.fxstreet.com/cryptocurrencies/news/china-is-banning-any-criticism-of-bitcoin-and-blockchain-technology-201910311837

It seems to be moving a lot faster than I anticipated on all this. I guess that BTC is being accepted as the 'bastard step-child' and ignored, probably, IMHO,

due to its 'store of value' aspects. (Anything to help lower the U.S. Dollars world dominance is also likely part of this).

So China, again IMHO, is likely looking at their Cryptocurrency, just like LIBRA, from a purely fast-moving electronic cashless cryptocurrency for buying

and selling stuff quickly with scaling. Bitcoin is accepted as the bastard step-child, in the store of value aspect, IMHO, and it helps in that role by

screwing over gold and the U.S. Dollar to boot.

Anyway, my take on the above. What do you all think?

later

Brad

---

Well, looking at the whole Mining thing again, could be a mad rush just to get the 16nm all out the door and into data halls before in about 1/2 year, the BTC halving happens. I suppose whales can be just as suckered into BTC/Crypto Mining hype as well as any of us home miners are/were...etc. Bigger wallets to fleece by the ASIC Manufacturer's, as they play the game of mine if first, before release of any new equipment. So rinse/wash/repeat.

Well, from the sidelines on ASIC mining now, but we shall see I guess. In fact, China may be doing a re-think on everything BTC/Crypto....not sure about this but look at this link:

https://www.fxstreet.com/cryptocurrencies/news/china-is-banning-any-criticism-of-bitcoin-and-blockchain-technology-201910311837

Comments? Whatcha think?

Brad

Looks to me, (or my uniformed self) that China soon is gonna make a real run at Crypto with their own Cryptocurrency.

Again, IMHO, they seem to be taking the LIBRA route and seems to me to be sidelining Bitcoin as a 'store of value' and

likely will concentrate on the 'usage' of their newly made government-backed Cryptocurrency...and just leave BTC to the wayside on that push.

Why muddy the waters, just say, hey, it's all good.

Anyway, my guesses from the link below:

https://www.fxstreet.com/cryptocurrencies/news/china-is-banning-any-criticism-of-bitcoin-and-blockchain-technology-201910311837

As for the thread...just feels funky....at these prices and difficulty and miner prices and such...what am I missing for this push to big miners all

acting like newbs and putting up miners? delusional? New ASIC's etc? Seems odder than usual in the usual BTC oddness universe...go figure..fishing for

what others think/heard/guess