[ESHOP launched] Trezor: Bitcoin hardware wallet

[simonk83]

Still waiting for delivery in Australia (posted on the 5th)   Anyone else over here received theirs yet?

My first edition classic order still doesn't track via Auspost.
I can see it was logged on the Czech system on 28th July

Still waiting for mine, just curious if yours has turned up yet?

No.  I received my bitmain orders within 2-3 days from China but 3.5 weeks from .Cz and still "No tracking events found" on auspost.

Ok, at least it's not just me

Just arrived today! Tracking number was not on auspost website as of last night.

Sweet, hopefully mine's close then

[klokan]

The answer you seek is just a few posts back:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=122438.msg8537393#msg8537393

1) Your coins are not lost
2) If you have a gap of more than 20 unused addresses your balance will not be correct until you use some of the unused addresses
3) Since the balance calculating algorithm stops after it sees 20 unused addresses all you need to do is send some coins to the unused addresses between your last properly summed address and the "lost" one in such a way as to make sure there are not more than 19 unused addresses between any two addresses that contain BTC

I have a missing transaction. Here is what I did right before:

 I installed the btcreceive app onto my android. I then loaded the xpub code into the btcreceive app. Then I proceeded to test the app sending multiple transactions to the keys generated on the app. Then I opened the account tab on btcreceive and tried sending to some of the addresses there. All was well until I tried one of the addresses further down on the list in the account tab. I tried the m/0/44 address. I sent a total of 0.01btc. this transaction is showing up in the btcreceive app, but it doesnt show up on the mytrezor.com transaction list. So I tried to send another small amount from another wallet to this address again and this transaction is showing up. Both transactions are showing up on blockchain.info.
https://blockchain.info/address/1CVHky4FZ4V5TN7DZSgaqwszRWg7iPrQfc. This has got me a little worried. What would happen if i had sent a larger amount of bitcoin? Would it be lost forever?

Ok I tested out your theory. I went back and used up every single address before m/0/44. My trezor is still showing the incorrect balance by 0.01btc. The balance on BTCReceive is showing correctly. So I'm guessing the only way to recover this lost btc would be to restore my seed to wallet32 app then send it somewhere else? I hope this is not the case.

What happens is your Trezor gives xpub to myTrezor web wallet and the wallet asks backend BoP server for all your transactions. The one you don't see is missing in the list provided by BoP. It is clearly there when visible both on blockchain.info and on btcreceive. I assume there is some glitch in BoP, which is unfortunate, but there are three things that can happen:
1. Issue fixes itself when BoP is restarted.
2. BoP developer fixes the issue if you report it to satoshi labs.
3. BoP will find your transaction without doing anything. Have you tried "Forget device" and replug?

Concerning "recovering" the BTC: If you had more choices of wallet software then you could use any of those and there is high probability you would not see the same glitch you see now. If myTrezor does not see the transaction then Electrum probably would, because it uses completely different stack. You should not be worried about your funds, because you can always recover them using other software that is being developed and will be here soon. But there is some risk you will be blocked and need to wait until the bug is fixed / infrastructure is there.

[sipak]

It looks like mytrezor got fixed, but the transaction that was stuck in my wallet, did get sent and I already sent it from different wallet, so I am out a $100. UGH

I will be updating my negative trust rating feedback accordingly.

You don't know how to confirm a transaction on the blockchain?
Maybe you should learn before you use

Yes I can't confirm a transaction on the blockchain, when A) you don't have the TXID and B) it is group address that doesn't do refunds.

$100 is not a big deal to me, but still it is wasted money.

Really, with all the respect, you don't need TXID, you just need that address you sent the bitcoins to, and put it in the search field. If you were able to send the transaction again from different client you provably must had known the address, so you could check if the prior transaction went through or not.

[Valzador]

Note: This is an if situation.

In the unlikely event that my Trezor breaks and I also lose my recovery seed what can I do? Is there memory on the Trezor that I could somehow extract to get my coins back or something?

[kamilosa]

Note: This is an if situation.

In the unlikely event that my Trezor breaks and I also lose my recovery seed what can I do? Is there memory on the Trezor that I could somehow extract to get my coins back or something?

In general, if this happen, you lost your coins for good. There is no other way, how you can recover or extract your coins back. Just make two copies of your recovery seed and store them on two different safe places and you should be fine.

[klokan]

Note: This is an if situation.

In the unlikely event that my Trezor breaks and I also lose my recovery seed what can I do? Is there memory on the Trezor that I could somehow extract to get my coins back or something?

If "Trezor breaks" than this usually means one of it's components does not work. If you manage to break it, the first thing that stops working is probably just display, next thing is board and only then MCU breaks. If your Trezor is broken, there is a chance MCU is still fine. If so, it can be reconnected to a new board and used (but this needs some nontrivial technical skills).
If buldozer runs over you Trezor and MCU is broken, you need your recovery seed.

[dnaleor]

Note: This is an if situation.

In the unlikely event that my Trezor breaks and I also lose my recovery seed what can I do? Is there memory on the Trezor that I could somehow extract to get my coins back or something?

In general, if this happen, you lost your coins for good. There is no other way, how you can recover or extract your coins back. Just make two copies of your recovery seed and store them on two different safe places and you should be fine.

I distributed my seed on 3 locations in such a way that I only need 2 of the 3 papers to recover my wallet

[sipak]

The answer you seek is just a few posts back:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=122438.msg8537393#msg8537393

1) Your coins are not lost
2) If you have a gap of more than 20 unused addresses your balance will not be correct until you use some of the unused addresses
3) Since the balance calculating algorithm stops after it sees 20 unused addresses all you need to do is send some coins to the unused addresses between your last properly summed address and the "lost" one in such a way as to make sure there are not more than 19 unused addresses between any two addresses that contain BTC

I have a missing transaction. Here is what I did right before:

 I installed the btcreceive app onto my android. I then loaded the xpub code into the btcreceive app. Then I proceeded to test the app sending multiple transactions to the keys generated on the app. Then I opened the account tab on btcreceive and tried sending to some of the addresses there. All was well until I tried one of the addresses further down on the list in the account tab. I tried the m/0/44 address. I sent a total of 0.01btc. this transaction is showing up in the btcreceive app, but it doesnt show up on the mytrezor.com transaction list. So I tried to send another small amount from another wallet to this address again and this transaction is showing up. Both transactions are showing up on blockchain.info.
https://blockchain.info/address/1CVHky4FZ4V5TN7DZSgaqwszRWg7iPrQfc. This has got me a little worried. What would happen if i had sent a larger amount of bitcoin? Would it be lost forever?

Ok I tested out your theory. I went back and used up every single address before m/0/44. My trezor is still showing the incorrect balance by 0.01btc. The balance on BTCReceive is showing correctly. So I'm guessing the only way to recover this lost btc would be to restore my seed to wallet32 app then send it somewhere else? I hope this is not the case.

What happens is your Trezor gives xpub to myTrezor web wallet and the wallet asks backend BoP server for all your transactions. The one you don't see is missing in the list provided by BoP. It is clearly there when visible both on blockchain.info and on btcreceive. I assume there is some glitch in BoP, which is unfortunate, but there are three things that can happen:
1. Issue fixes itself when BoP is restarted.
2. BoP developer fixes the issue if you report it to satoshi labs.
3. BoP will find your transaction without doing anything. Have you tried "Forget device" and replug?

Concerning "recovering" the BTC: If you had more choices of wallet software then you could use any of those and there is high probability you would not see the same glitch you see now. If myTrezor does not see the transaction then Electrum probably would, because it uses completely different stack. You should not be worried about your funds, because you can always recover them using other software that is being developed and will be here soon. But there is some risk you will be blocked and need to wait until the bug is fixed / infrastructure is there.

The BoP can't see it because it  follows BIP0039 standard where the gap limit is set to 20, see https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0044.mediawiki#address-gap-limit

Wallet software should warn when the user is trying to exceed the gap limit on an external chain by generating a new address.

What happens is that 3rd party wallet are not BIP0039 compliant in this detail, which cause confusion in compliant wallets like myTrezor. The remedy is as follows: fill the gap limit with several small transactions, so that the difference in path of two transactions in the account is always less then 20.

In this case we have payment on the address 44. It should be enough to send 0.001 BTC to address number 15 and 30.

[BurtW]

The BoP can't see it because it  follows BIP0039 standard where the gap limit is set to 20, see https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0044.mediawiki#address-gap-limit

Wallet software should warn when the user is trying to exceed the gap limit on an external chain by generating a new address.

What happens is that 3rd party wallet are not BIP0039 compliant in this detail, which cause confusion in compliant wallets like myTrezor. The remedy is as follows: fill the gap limit with several small transactions, so that the difference in path of two transactions in the account is always less then 20.

In this case we have payment on the address 44. It should be enough to send 0.001 BTC to address number 15 and 30.

I think you quoted without reading:

Ok I tested out your theory. I went back and used up every single address before m/0/44. My trezor is still showing the incorrect balance by 0.01btc. The balance on BTCReceive is showing correctly. So I'm guessing the only way to recover this lost btc would be to restore my seed to wallet32 app then send it somewhere else? I hope this is not the case.

If true then I think this may indicate a bug in the BoP implementation.

[anarchoatheist]

The BoP can't see it because it  follows BIP0039 standard where the gap limit is set to 20, see https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0044.mediawiki#address-gap-limit

Wallet software should warn when the user is trying to exceed the gap limit on an external chain by generating a new address.

What happens is that 3rd party wallet are not BIP0039 compliant in this detail, which cause confusion in compliant wallets like myTrezor. The remedy is as follows: fill the gap limit with several small transactions, so that the difference in path of two transactions in the account is always less then 20.

In this case we have payment on the address 44. It should be enough to send 0.001 BTC to address number 15 and 30.

I think you quoted without reading:

Ok I tested out your theory. I went back and used up every single address before m/0/44. My trezor is still showing the incorrect balance by 0.01btc. The balance on BTCReceive is showing correctly. So I'm guessing the only way to recover this lost btc would be to restore my seed to wallet32 app then send it somewhere else? I hope this is not the case.

If true then I think this may indicate a bug in the BoP implementation.

So here is an update on my situation. I checked mytrezor again this morning and the balance is now correct and the transaction in question is now showing up in the transaction list. I'm guessing the bop server needed a little time to refresh?
 
I kinda wanted to put this scenario to the test to see what would happen. Now I know.

[kkurtmann]

seems BoP is a bit behind when I have a confirmation on a transaction on blockchain.info but not confirmed on myTrezor for over ten minutes. https://blockchain.info/address/1BAJuPdo2CSqVQxSreFNmi4cp9DYtZ3akb
edit: 7 confirmations on blockchain.info and none on MyTrezor.com

[grau]

seems BoP is a bit behind when I have a confirmation on a transaction on blockchain.info but not confirmed on myTrezor for over ten minutes. https://blockchain.info/address/1BAJuPdo2CSqVQxSreFNmi4cp9DYtZ3akb
edit: 7 confirmations on blockchain.info and none on MyTrezor.com

I have seen this happening to some customer and is temporary for the connection. You will see it confirmed once you close the myTREZOR browser window and reopen it after a delay sufficient (I think about a minute) to drop connections.

[AussieHash]

Basic question: Is it safe to make two identical Trezors? (Same: device label, recovery seeds, multi-passphrases, PIN)

I've successfully setup/initialised one Trezor using the python-trezor tools, and recovered the same seed to a backup Trezor, fully offline without myTrezor.com

http://www.reddit.com/r/TREZOR/comments/2etgod/pythontrezor_successful_for_offline/

[Perlover]

Hi,

I noticed the strange thing.

The Trezor is device for signing all outputs and all outputs should be showed to me in screen and values of each output.
Is it correct?

But i noticed that when i send some money to addresses A, B, C (i did the transaction for 10 addresses) there was 11th output - it's OK, one address is change from my wallet.

BUT! The 11th address is not showed by Trezor (or 1st) - this is the change adress. So one address slips away from my eye. It's very strange.
How the Trezor decides that one address should not be showed (and value too!) to me when i sign the transaction?

I understood that it made may be for easy using. But i would know the algorithm for this decision.
May be there security hole? Can hacker tell to the Trezor that one X address from faked transaction is change address and after this the Trezor could not show to me this address and value in Trezor's screen?

I can imagine that the Trezor could get the change address as path of BIP32/BIP44 and inside itself can recalculate the address and after it decides that this address is a really my own change address and doesn't show one me and value for it. But i am not sure that this done same way. If there in protocol only bit for address (change/not_change) - it will be security hole for trojan.

I think the Trezor should show all outputs and value of each output included a change address. A change address could be showed with remark 'Your Change' or other way. Otherwise, the thought creeps in that the algorithm has a loophole.

How do you think?
And what does Stick or Slush think about this? I don't want to ask this to through ticket system because the Trezor project should be discussed publicly.

[BurtW]

The Trezor can calculate the change address so it knows it is correct so it does not need to bother you to veryify something that it knows is correct and cannot be faked.

Also, let's say it did show you the internal change address on the screen then how would you know whether it is correct or not?  Since myWallet does not show the changes addresses (yet?) it would take you some large effort (launch bip32.org, copy in xpub, search through all the change addresses until you find the correct one which could be very far into the sequence if you have done a lot of transactions, etc.) to even calculate it yourself in order to verify it.

Trezor is correct to not bother us with this because it can verify if the change address in the transaction is correct or not itself.

[BurtW]

I would love to buy one but 119 bucks?  
Just waaaay to expensive for the newbies.

If you have less than $1000 in BTC then this product may not be for you.  But for someone who has thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, etc. then this is a great product.  I love this little thing.  I have 5 of them and will be ordering a couple more for Christmas gifts for people I know that have BTC holdings.  It is the second best thing I have ever purchased with BTC, the best one being a case of Girl Scout thin mint cookies.

[btcm4n14c]

i love it but im waiting for lower price 

[Perlover]

The Trezor calculates the change address so it knows it is correct so it does not need to bother you to veryify something that it knows is correct and cannot be faked, since everything happens inside the Trezor.

Stop
It can be calculated based by blockchain.
Trezor doesn't know the blockchain. So it cannot calculate it.
Only computer with opened site MyTrezor.com can help because only computer knows which addresses are not used.

[Anon136]

I would love to buy one but 119 bucks?  
Just waaaay to expensive for the newbies.

If you have less than $1000 in BTC then this product may not be for you.  But for someone who has thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, etc. then this is a great product.  I love this little thing.  I have 5 of them and will be ordering a couple more for Christmas gifts for people I know that have BTC holdings.  It is the second best thing I have ever purchased with BTC, the best one being a case of Girl Scout thin mint cookies.

I understand that if you got multiple thousands of BTC then maybe 119 bucks isn´t expensive but for us with less then 2 it´s quite alot  We need security too 

You'll wish you had spent part of that 2 if all of it gets stolen . I think it all depends how well you know security. Is your system secure? Do you know how to make it secure? If the answers to these questions is anything other than a confident yes, you may want to consider spending a fraction of that 2 bitcoins on making sure that you dont lose the rest of it.

[Anon136]

The Trezor calculates the change address so it knows it is correct so it does not need to bother you to veryify something that it knows is correct and cannot be faked, since everything happens inside the Trezor.

Stop
It can be calculated based by blockchain.
Trezor doesn't know the blockchain. So it cannot calculate it.
Only computer with opened site MyTrezor.com can help because only computer knows which addresses are not used.

Sorry if this sounds mean but I don't think you understand how bitcoin works. I can give you some great links if you like that will help you understand on a more technical level.