Motosport General discussion tread --- Formula1, MotoGP, WTCC, ETCC, DTM.....

[swogerino]

Of course Verstappen get the parts before Perez,they upgrade Max car first and that is why in certain races we can see a huge difference in drivers with the same car.Did it not happen with Norris and Piastri at McLaren where Norris got the parts first and was racing at a much better pace than Piastri by getting a podium.This though does in no way removes the fact that Perez for me is the most mediocre driver I have ever seen so far in F1,he still has a Redbull and in the times of Vettel and Vebber and in early times of Verstappen together with Ricciardo we have seen quite some crashes between the team mates,something clearly not happening with Perez forcing my view on him as a real mediocre driver.

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[Davian144]

it's still 50/50 for Marquez to be able to join Pramac Racing, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that he does join Pramac Racing seeing that he is quite disappointed with Honda not providing significant improvements to their bikes. if Honda didn't react well to what Marquez asked, it was certain that he would leave Honda and that was the beginning of Honda's downfall because they didn't have a good rider anymore.

Pramac Racing is a satellite team and very different from regular teams like Honda, so Pramac Racing must also have a bigger budget if they want to redeem Marquez from Honda. This is the first consideration that Pramac Racing has to think about because it can really hurt their budget in buying engines at Ducati in every season. Besides that, if you want to see the destruction of Honda, actually Honda has been destroyed since Marquez suffered an injury in 2020 because since then every change made by Honda has not produced any results.

And one more thing that Honda made a mistake was by removing Dani Pedrosa from their own team so that the development of Honda's own engine became unstable. This can be seen when KTM took Dani Pedrosa and put him in the field of motorbike development and test riders for KTM so that KTM could experience such significant changes in the motorbikes they created. In the past, KTM was never competitive, but now KTM can compete with other big manufacturers such as Ducati and Aprilia through their flagship rider, Brad Binder.

Yep. Honda will lose a lot if Marquez leaves.
The only thing that can keep Marquez at Honda is the emergence of a revolutionary project undertaken by Honda.
All possibilities can happen, but I think Marquez will stay at Honda.

One more loss that has been experienced by Honda is the departure of Alex Rins to another manufacturer, because as has been seen that Alex Rins was a very great rider when he was still at the Suzuki factory and this season Honda still has him even though Alex Rins himself still has to absent due to injury recovery which is still not complete. But next season he will no longer be in Honda's garage because there has been an agreement with Yamaha, so this has forced LCR Honda to recruit Johan Zarco to fill the empty seat left by Alex Rins.

[Juggy777]

Of course Verstappen get the parts before Perez,they upgrade Max car first and that is why in certain races we can see a huge difference in drivers with the same car.Did it not happen with Norris and Piastri at McLaren where Norris got the parts first and was racing at a much better pace than Piastri by getting a podium.This though does in no way removes the fact that Perez for me is the most mediocre driver I have ever seen so far in F1,he still has a Redbull and in the times of Vettel and Vebber and in early times of Verstappen together with Ricciardo we have seen quite some crashes between the team mates,something clearly not happening with Perez forcing my view on him as a real mediocre driver.

@swogerino I wasn’t aware of this because till date I thought that both drivers would get upgraded cars at the same time and now it makes sense why Verstappen can drive faster then his teammate. Also Perez isn’t a bad driver as he’s claimed more points then Hamilton and Leclerc too and who knows if he ever shifts maybe he’ll be able to dominate and even end up occupying the top spot for himself.

[swogerino]

Of course Verstappen get the parts before Perez,they upgrade Max car first and that is why in certain races we can see a huge difference in drivers with the same car.Did it not happen with Norris and Piastri at McLaren where Norris got the parts first and was racing at a much better pace than Piastri by getting a podium.This though does in no way removes the fact that Perez for me is the most mediocre driver I have ever seen so far in F1,he still has a Redbull and in the times of Vettel and Vebber and in early times of Verstappen together with Ricciardo we have seen quite some crashes between the team mates,something clearly not happening with Perez forcing my view on him as a real mediocre driver.

@swogerino I wasn’t aware of this because till date I thought that both drivers would get upgraded cars at the same time and now it makes sense why Verstappen can drive faster then his teammate. Also Perez isn’t a bad driver as he’s claimed more points then Hamilton and Leclerc too and who knows if he ever shifts maybe he’ll be able to dominate and even end up occupying the top spot for himself.

It is paramount and a sure thing that with a car like Redbull which is the best on the grid he should be fighting for the title against Max and not collecting more points than other drivers in other teams when the difference between Redbull and the other teams is so big as it is winning every single race up until now and in Monza the Honda engine of Redbull I am afraid is going to win with a huge gap,so it is a sure thing that the Redbull will win at Monza this upcoming weekend unless they have mechanical or electrical failures.

In the time as I said before when Vettel and Webber at Redbull,Hamilton and Rosberg at Mercedes,when they were dominating both drivers fought for the Championship resulting in many crashes,so yes Perez has absolutely no excuses to such bad races.

[Luzin]

Pramac Racing is a satellite team and very different from regular teams like Honda, so Pramac Racing must also have a bigger budget if they want to redeem Marquez from Honda. This is the first consideration that Pramac Racing has to think about because it can really hurt their budget in buying engines at Ducati in every season. Besides that, if you want to see the destruction of Honda, actually Honda has been destroyed since Marquez suffered an injury in 2020 because since then every change made by Honda has not produced any results.
~snip~

Last season Dani Pedrosa successfully brought changes to KTM. There is quite a noticeable development with the KTM bike. This season it seems that Binder has also performed quite well. But Ducati's dominance with many bikes has become difficult to unseat them in the factory class. There are still about 11 races to go if I'm not mistaken, there will still be a lot of points to be had and there may be another surprise at the end.
As for Honda, I think indeed they are not serious in the development of the bike. It seems like there are a lot of problems, especially maybe the cost.

[moneystery]

...

As for Honda, I think indeed they are not serious in the development of the bike. It seems like there are a lot of problems, especially maybe the cost.

honda is expected to remain stuck in its current position because it is unable to improve the performance of their motorbikes compared to european manufacturers who are very aggressive in developing their motorbikes. the only thing keeping honda afloat at the moment is marquez who still believes that honda can improve the performance of their motorbikes, like what they do in f1, and hopefully that's the case because it's quite sad to see honda's current condition.

[Davian144]

Last season Dani Pedrosa successfully brought changes to KTM. There is quite a noticeable development with the KTM bike. This season it seems that Binder has also performed quite well. But Ducati's dominance with many bikes has become difficult to unseat them in the factory class. There are still about 11 races to go if I'm not mistaken, there will still be a lot of points to be had and there may be another surprise at the end.
As for Honda, I think indeed they are not serious in the development of the bike. It seems like there are a lot of problems, especially maybe the cost.

Ducati's dominance with a larger number of motorbikes on the MotoGP grid is a very natural thing because Ducati is able to provide more motorbikes for their customers. Whether it is for Pramac Racing as Ducati's regular customer, or for their new customers such as Gresini Racing and Mooney VR46 Racing, but of the several manufacturers on the MotoGP grid now, KTM has been seen to be able to provide competition for Ducati apart from other manufacturers such as Aprilia which comes from same country as Ducati.

There are only 10 races left and as has already been seen the Asian manufacturers are still struggling to get more points in the past races. And for a manufacturer like Honda, I think they are not constrained by cost problems because every year they get a lot of sales, but for the last two seasons, Honda just lacked people who were able to develop engines and motorbikes to be more competitive, so it's not surprising that the new Marquez just managed to finish the race in Austria and it was his first finish this season because the previous result he got this season was a Crash.

honda is expected to remain stuck in its current position because it is unable to improve the performance of their motorbikes compared to european manufacturers who are very aggressive in developing their motorbikes. the only thing keeping honda afloat at the moment is marquez who still believes that honda can improve the performance of their motorbikes, like what they do in f1, and hopefully that's the case because it's quite sad to see honda's current condition.

Not only Honda, but the Yamaha manufacturer itself is also almost the same, because the two Asian manufacturers were both late in developing their engines and motorbikes as a whole when this season was not running like now. Meanwhile, European manufacturers continued to develop their motorbikes during the break and before the season started so that the results seen now are very clear that this season's races will only be dominated by European motorbikes.

[swogerino]

...

As for Honda, I think indeed they are not serious in the development of the bike. It seems like there are a lot of problems, especially maybe the cost.

honda is expected to remain stuck in its current position because it is unable to improve the performance of their motorbikes compared to european manufacturers who are very aggressive in developing their motorbikes. the only thing keeping honda afloat at the moment is marquez who still believes that honda can improve the performance of their motorbikes, like what they do in f1, and hopefully that's the case because it's quite sad to see honda's current condition.

Honda can really improve if they want to improve.Let's make a comparison with F1,when Honda came back in 2015 in collaboration with McLaren the expectations for them were really high as in the late 1980 they dominated F1 completely but the truth was that they were really weak and Alonso complained in the famous radio message "GP2 engine,GP2 engine".Well some time passed and they are now winning consistently Championships from 3 years now with Redbull that has an Honda engine.

So to make an analogy if Honda put themselves to work they can achieve improving the bike and even coming back and winning MotoGP Championships like they used to do in the early 2000-s here up to some years ago before Ducatti took over.

[coinlocket$]

Honda can really improve if they want to improve.Let's make a comparison with F1,when Honda came back in 2015 in collaboration with McLaren the expectations for them were really high as in the late 1980 they dominated F1 completely but the truth was that they were really weak and Alonso complained in the famous radio message "GP2 engine,GP2 engine".Well some time passed and they are now winning consistently Championships from 3 years now with Redbull that has an Honda engine.

So to make an analogy if Honda put themselves to work they can achieve improving the bike and even coming back and winning MotoGP Championships like they used to do in the early 2000-s here up to some years ago before Ducatti took over.

Fun fact, every time Honda comes back in F1 and leaves, the year when they left has always been the yeah when they won the title.

Even this time they left and Max won the title in their last year in F1.

Yes they are keeping the engine in F1 now but they are done by BRB itself.

[alegotardo]

Of course Verstappen get the parts before Perez,they upgrade Max car first and that is why in certain races we can see a huge difference in drivers with the same car.Did it not happen with Norris and Piastri at McLaren where Norris got the parts first and was racing at a much better pace than Piastri by getting a podium.This though does in no way removes the fact that Perez for me is the most mediocre driver I have ever seen so far in F1,he still has a Redbull and in the times of Vettel and Vebber and in early times of Verstappen together with Ricciardo we have seen quite some crashes between the team mates,something clearly not happening with Perez forcing my view on him as a real mediocre driver.

Apart from this parts issue, it is surprising to see that this Formula 1 season started with the undisputed dominance of Red Bull, winning every race until the August break... even if now Max Verstappen has a huge advantage over Sergio Pérez , it wasn't always like that, as the Mexican managed to win two races at the beginning of the season, but that didn't take away his triumph.

Unfortunately, starting from the stage in Australia, the Mexican driver went into a free fall until he became the target of Fernando Alonso, who approached dangerously with the Aston Martin. As the races went by, Pérez even regained some of the lost pace, but it was still insufficient for his teammate....
I think Mercedes could benefit Pérez more, as Verstappen is doing very well in qualifying.

It must also be remembered that there is still a risk that a performance "error" in a new component could affect Verstappen a lot, so is it sometimes more prudent to start testing him in Pérez's car, or not?

[tokeweed]

I didn't realize that the race was gonna be the week right after the Dutch GP.  :/  And it looks like the books got Vettel at 1.22 this time...  A tad lower than the 1.25 they had last week. 

With the race being at Italy, I guess Ferrari will try to get at least one of their boys on the podium?  I think Sainz to finish top 6 at 1.82 could win here.  Dunno...  NFA.  Lol.

Here's the schedule.

2023 F1 Italian Grand Prix Schedule
Track:  Autodromo Nazionale, Monza



Friday 1 Sept:  Practice 1  13:30 - 14:30
Friday 1 Sept:  Practice 2  17:00 - 18:00
Saturday 2 Sept:  Practice 3  12:30 - 13:30
Saturday 2 Sept:  Qualifying  16:00 - 17:00
Sunday 3 Sept:  Race  15:00

[Davian144]

So to make an analogy if Honda put themselves to work they can achieve improving the bike and even coming back and winning MotoGP Championships like they used to do in the early 2000-s here up to some years ago before Ducatti took over.

This is indeed very possible for Honda as long as the Honda manufacturer itself is willing to improve from small things to big things such as recruiting smart people to make more advanced developments and removing useless people for the company. them so that they can achieve better development in the future. Now Honda is really critical in MotoGP, because it is very difficult for most of their riders to finish the race due to the many crashes that happened to them during this season.

[emrecemsan]

It is another race week after a long summer break and it is satisfying a lot. Because I really enjoyed the Dutch GP. Rain made the race really interesting at first times and in the final part of the race. But even these different weather conditions weren't enough to stop Verstappen from getting the win in his home country.

Now there is a record waiting to be broken by Verstappen on one hand. It is the record of number of consecutive wins. It is nine wins in a row now which makes him equal with Vettel about this record. He is only one win away from being the only owner of this record. To tell the truth I don't see any reason to see Verstappen losing in Monza race as well.

[coinlocket$]

I didn't realize that the race was gonna be the week right after the Dutch GP.  :/  And it looks like the books got Vettel at 1.22 this time...  A tad lower than the 1.25 they had last week. 

With the race being at Italy, I guess Ferrari will try to get at least one of their boys on the podium?  I think Sainz to finish top 6 at 1.82 could win here.  Dunno...  NFA.  Lol.

Here's the schedule.

In a fast track the actual Mclaren should be comfortable in second position after RBR.

About Ferrari you may be right, they may give them the max possible potential in race at home even at the cost of killing one engine.

[Davian144]

The FP1 MotoGp Catalunya has finished and the first to third places are occupied by the host riders and what is unique is that the Aprilia factory has again shown a very extraordinary appearance at the FP1 MotoGP Catalunya with their flagship rider, Aleix Espargaro. In the last season, Aleix Espargaro also successfully placed himself in first place after successfully scoring the best time in qualifying last season. Even though he also experienced unpleasant things for himself when the race left one lap to go, he had already celebrated.

[tokeweed]

The Red Bulls looking to make a statement right off the bat and won't give the Ferraris some momentum in their home track.  Ferrari also trying to get it on right from the very start.  Let's wait for what's in store for FP2.  I think we'll see somewhat the same results with RBR and Ferrari at the top.

I hope Leclerc and Sainz won't fade by quali.

2023 F1 Italian Grand Prix FP1 Results

1   Max Verstappen   NED   Oracle Red Bull Racing   1m22.657s
2   Carlos Sainz   ESP   Scuderia Ferrari   1m22.703s
3   Sergio Perez   MEX   Oracle Bull Racing   1m22.834s
4   Charles Leclerc   MON   Scuderia Ferrari   1m22.966s
5   George Russell   GBR   Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team   1m23.189s
6   Fernando Alonso   ESP   Aston Martin Aramco Cognizant Formula One Team   1m23.214s
7   Lando Norris   GBR   McLaren F1 Team   1m23.241s
8   Lewis Hamilton   GBR   Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team   1m23.269s
9   Yuki Tsunoda   JPN   Scuderia AlphaTauri    1m23.271s
10   Alex Albon   THA   Williams Racing   1m23.444s
11   Oscar Piastri   AUS   McLaren F1 Team   1m23.446s
12   Logan Sargeant   USA   Williams Racing   1m23.661s
13   Liam Lawson   NZL   Scuderia AlphaTauri   1m23.833s
14   Pierre Gasly   FRA   BWT Alpine F1 Team   1m23.931s
15   Valtteri Bottas   FIN   Alfa Romeo F1 Team Stake   1m23.952s
16   Nico Hulkenberg   GER   MoneyGram Haas F1 Team   1m24.067s
17   Esteban Ocon   FRA   BWT Alpine F1 Team   1m24.090s
18   Felipe Drugovich   BRA   Aston Martin Aramco Cognizant Formula One Team   1m24.140s
19   Kevin Magnussen   DEN   MoneyGram Haas F1 Team   1m24.217s
20   Zhou Guanyu   CHN   Alfa Romeo F1 Team Stake   1m24.232s

[swogerino]

The Red Bulls looking to make a statement right off the bat and won't give the Ferraris some momentum in their home track.  Ferrari also trying to get it on right from the very start.  Let's wait for what's in store for FP2.  I think we'll see somewhat the same results with RBR and Ferrari at the top.

I hope Leclerc and Sainz won't fade by quali.

2023 F1 Italian Grand Prix FP1 Results

1   Max Verstappen   NED   Oracle Red Bull Racing   1m22.657s
2   Carlos Sainz   ESP   Scuderia Ferrari   1m22.703s
3   Sergio Perez   MEX   Oracle Bull Racing   1m22.834s
4   Charles Leclerc   MON   Scuderia Ferrari   1m22.966s
5   George Russell   GBR   Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team   1m23.189s
6   Fernando Alonso   ESP   Aston Martin Aramco Cognizant Formula One Team   1m23.214s
7   Lando Norris   GBR   McLaren F1 Team   1m23.241s
8   Lewis Hamilton   GBR   Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team   1m23.269s
9   Yuki Tsunoda   JPN   Scuderia AlphaTauri    1m23.271s
10   Alex Albon   THA   Williams Racing   1m23.444s
11   Oscar Piastri   AUS   McLaren F1 Team   1m23.446s
12   Logan Sargeant   USA   Williams Racing   1m23.661s
13   Liam Lawson   NZL   Scuderia AlphaTauri   1m23.833s
14   Pierre Gasly   FRA   BWT Alpine F1 Team   1m23.931s
15   Valtteri Bottas   FIN   Alfa Romeo F1 Team Stake   1m23.952s
16   Nico Hulkenberg   GER   MoneyGram Haas F1 Team   1m24.067s
17   Esteban Ocon   FRA   BWT Alpine F1 Team   1m24.090s
18   Felipe Drugovich   BRA   Aston Martin Aramco Cognizant Formula One Team   1m24.140s
19   Kevin Magnussen   DEN   MoneyGram Haas F1 Team   1m24.217s
20   Zhou Guanyu   CHN   Alfa Romeo F1 Team Stake   1m24.232s

It is to early to judge but as I have said before,the Honda engine in a track like this is totally unbeatable,Ferrari stands absolutely no chance against Redbull here,the engine of Redbull is to far superior compared to Ferrari.This track can give a lot of benefits to Max if he will not have mechanical or electrical failures he may become the first driver in F1 history to win 10 races in a consecutive way,there are 3 drivers so far including him with equal record of 9 wins in a row.The Monza track is heavily in favor of Redbull and the Honda engine.If everything will be normal in here Perez should be definitely second as the track permits to make faster laps and have a lot of possibilities for overtaking.

[moneystery]

...

...

Honda can really improve if they want to improve.Let's make a comparison with F1,when Honda came back in 2015 in collaboration with McLaren the expectations for them were really high as in the late 1980 they dominated F1 completely but the truth was that they were really weak and Alonso complained in the famous radio message "GP2 engine,GP2 engine".Well some time passed and they are now winning consistently Championships from 3 years now with Redbull that has an Honda engine.

So to make an analogy if Honda put themselves to work they can achieve improving the bike and even coming back and winning MotoGP Championships like they used to do in the early 2000-s here up to some years ago before Ducatti took over.

even if honda wants to catch up with european manufacturers, it will certainly cost them a lot of money, which could be a problem for honda. they also need to send their engineering to europe to be able to study the technology there and apply it to their motorbikes and develop them further. not to mention that they need further testing and repairs here and there, so there are a lot of things that honda needs to do and are not sure that they will be completed in the next 2 or 3 years.

[Distraction]

Sainz and Perez were both in top 3 in FP1 and FP2 so far. But Free Practice sessions really don't assure anything to us. Things can change a lot as for qualifying. There is no expectation of rain at this race weekend this time. This made me sad a little after watching a lovely competition in Netherlands. 

This is another race Verstappen should be winning comfortably. His car is like perfect now. He doesn't struggle with any kind of big issue this season.

I'm just waiting to see how good the competition will be for the other podium places. I hope to see Norris there again after a break of two races.

[coinlocket$]

2023 F1 Italian Grand Prix - Free Practice Results (1)
Pos    Driver    Nat.   Team    Time
1   Carlos Sainz   ESP   Scuderia Ferrari   1m21.355s
2   Lando Norris   GBR   McLaren F1 Team   1m21.374s
3   Sergio Perez   MEX   Oracle Bull Racing   1m21.540s
4   Oscar Piastri   AUS   McLaren F1 Team   1m21.545s
5   Max Verstappen   NED   Oracle Red Bull Racing   1m21.631s
6   Charles Leclerc   MON   Scuderia Ferrari   1m21.716s
7   Alex Albon   THA   Williams Racing   1m21.979s
8   Fernando Alonso   ESP   Aston Martin Aramco Cognizant Formula One Team   1m22.071s
9   George Russell   GBR   Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team   1m22.176s
10   Nico Hulkenberg   GER   MoneyGram Haas F1 Team   1m22.291s
11   Kevin Magnussen   DEN   MoneyGram Haas F1 Team   1m22.574s
12   Valtteri Bottas   FIN   Alfa Romeo F1 Team Stake   1m22.595s
13   Pierre Gasly   FRA   BWT Alpine F1 Team   1m22.651s
14   Yuki Tsunoda   JPN   Scuderia AlphaTauri    1m22.696s
15   Esteban Ocon   FRA   BWT Alpine F1 Team   1m22.716s
16   Logan Sargeant   USA   Williams Racing   1m22.755s
17   Lewis Hamilton   GBR   Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team   1m22.783s
18   Liam Lawson   NZL   Scuderia AlphaTauri   1m23.167s
19   Zhou Guanyu   CHN   Alfa Romeo F1 Team Stake   1m23.346s
20   Lance Stroll   CAN   Aston Martin Aramco Cognizant Formula One Team   No Time Se

Source: https://www.crash.net/f1/results/1034607/1/f1-italian-grand-prix-2023-friday-practice-results

Second hour results with Ferrari on top, quite strange