[Archive] BFL trolling museum

[Frizz23]

I did. But for those they actually pay ...

... or not. This are the ones PuertoLibre was referring to:

BFL should pay Theymos the ad rent they owe.

[meowmeowbrowncow]

Jebus on a popsicle stick!   Inaba, the FUD hierophant extraordinaire, always blesses us with these lovely comments.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/519-10-dec-2012-bfl-asic-update-18.html#post8108

Looks like the Avalon delays are just getting started. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?to...668#msg1397668) ... I'm not surprised of course. I think we're going to see a lot more delays once they actually get the chips and realize the magnitude of their error(s). Maybe they can find away around it, but I'm having trouble envisioning how they can easily and quickly fix the problem they are going to be facing, which forced us to delay as well.

First of all, the FUD is imminent with 'Avalon delays are just getting started.'  This is really starting to get predictable.


And, by Inaba's own admission above in bold, BFL screwed the pooch making 'error(s)', which required 'clock buffers' as the latest propaganda would have us believe.  The official line from BFL is that 'clock buffers' are an enhancement.  But as we can see Inaba is equating what he foresees as show stopping 'error(s)' on the Avalon front as the exact same problem BFL had and is the cause of the current BFL delay.


I'm tired of the propaganda.  Credibility gets shredded when CEO's show up to spin last minute remediation as enhancements all the while it makes little sense and then the COO tripping up and making a statement like this.

Inaba FUD'ed himself up.

[CoinHoarder]

For anyone that's interested, a refund from BFL took exactly one week.

They may not be able to deliver a product on time or give proper customer service, but at least their refunds work OK.

[PuertoLibre]

For anyone that's interested, a refund from BFL took exactly one week.

They may not be able to deliver a product on time or give proper customer service, but at least their refunds work OK.

Whoa, 1 week. I thought they said it would be "prompt"?

May I ask by which method they refunded you? (WireTransfer? Swift? Paypal Refund? Paypal Send Money? BTC?)

The reason I ask, is because I thought there were limits to how much money you could refund in such a short period of time without it looking incredibly suspicious. Especially for Paypal.

[CoinHoarder]

For anyone that's interested, a refund from BFL took exactly one week.

They may not be able to deliver a product on time or give proper customer service, but at least their refunds work OK.

Whoa, 1 week. I thought they said it would be "prompt"?

May I ask by which method they refunded you? (WireTransfer? Swift? Paypal Refund? Paypal Send Money? BTC?)

The reason I ask, is because I thought there were limits to how much money you could refund in such a short period of time without it looking incredibly suspicious. Especially for Paypal.

Yeah, it seems they are about 4-5 business days behind on answering their emails.

I paid and received my refund in bitcoins, so that wasn't an issue for me.

[greyhawk]

I did. But for those they actually pay ...

... or not. This are the ones PuertoLibre was referring to:

BFL should pay Theymos the ad rent they owe.

That I don't know anything about. I don't monitor theymos' cashflow.



Maybe I should?

[PuertoLibre]

For anyone that's interested, a refund from BFL took exactly one week.

They may not be able to deliver a product on time or give proper customer service, but at least their refunds work OK.

Whoa, 1 week. I thought they said it would be "prompt"?

May I ask by which method they refunded you? (WireTransfer? Swift? Paypal Refund? Paypal Send Money? BTC?)

The reason I ask, is because I thought there were limits to how much money you could refund in such a short period of time without it looking incredibly suspicious. Especially for Paypal.

Yeah, it seems they are about 4-5 business days behind on answering their emails.

I paid and received my refund in bitcoins, so that wasn't an issue for me.

Wait...did you get refunded the 8,000 USD equivalent in Bitcoins or did they "literally" give you back the same coins you paid with at the time?

If it is the latter, then you sir have just [possibly] opened Pandoras box.

[repentance]

Wait...did you get refunded the 8,000 USD equivalent in Bitcoins or did they "literally" give you back the same coins you paid with at the time?

If it is the latter, then you sir have just [possibly] opened Pandoras box.

I thought that Bitcoin payments for BFL products went through Bit-Pay and that BFL received the payments in USD - which would mean they couldn't refund "your" Bitcoins because they never received your payment in BTC in the first place.

[CoinHoarder]

I thought that Bitcoin payments for BFL products went through Bit-Pay and that BFL received the payments in USD - which would mean they couldn't refund "your" Bitcoins because they never received your payment in BTC in the first place.

This, it was tied to the US dollar.

[Syke]

I thought that Bitcoin payments for BFL products went through Bit-Pay and that BFL received the payments in USD - which would mean they couldn't refund "your" Bitcoins because they never received your payment in BTC in the first place.

This, it was tied to the US dollar.

So how many BTC did you lose?

[repentance]

BTW, I think the question Josh needs to answer isn't "when will the chips be ready", but "what date do you hope to start assembling units"?  The projected assembly date is the most meaningful one for customers because the chips aren't really "ready" or "delivered" until they're at the assembly location about to be put into units.

So how many BTC did you lose?

Nobody "lost" any BTC because they didn't actually pay in BTC.

[abeaulieu]

I thought that Bitcoin payments for BFL products went through Bit-Pay and that BFL received the payments in USD - which would mean they couldn't refund "your" Bitcoins because they never received your payment in BTC in the first place.

This, it was tied to the US dollar.

So how many BTC did you lose?

Oh god, here we go again on the subject of "how much is lost by spending a certain number of bitcoins."
Which is a completely moot question.

[Syke]

Nobody "lost" any BTC because they didn't actually pay in BTC.

Just because BFL didn't receive the coins, doesn't mean people didn't pay in BTC.

[Syke]

Oh god, here we go again on the subject of "how much is lost by spending a certain number of bitcoins."
Which is a completely moot question.

Not when refunds come into play. Someone who paid in BTC for a pre-order 6 months ago for 200 BTC, if they get a refund now they'll only get 100 BTC back. Ouch!

[repentance]

Nobody "lost" any BTC because they didn't actually pay in BTC.

Just because BFL didn't receive the coins, doesn't mean people didn't pay in BTC.

Sure it does.  If I buy something from Amazon, I'm paying for it in USD even though AUD come out of my bank account.  If I receive a refund from Amazon, it will be issued in US - the exchange rate at the time it's issued may work in my favour or against me.

BFL products are priced in USD.  They have no set BTC price precisely because they're sold for USD.  That using a payment processor allows you to bypass the process of having to convert BTC to USD yourself in order to pay for your order doesn't mean that you're buying the units for Bitcoin any more than the fact that my bank automatically converts my AUD to USD for my Amazon orders means that I'm buying books for AUD.

[Syke]

BFL products are priced in USD.  They have no set BTC price precisely because they're sold for USD.  That using a payment processor allows you to bypass the process of having to convert BTC to USD yourself in order to pay for your order doesn't mean that you're buying the units for Bitcoin any more than the fact that my bank automatically converts my AUD to USD for my Amazon orders means that I'm buying books for AUD.

And if you paid 200 AUD for something, and later got a refund and only received 100 AUD, that would suck, wouldn't it?

[boonies4u]

You only 'lost' money if you didn't rebuy the bitcoins you spent on the preorder and if you bought bitcoins solely to preorder you certainly didn't 'lose' anything.

You could say you lost money if you bought a preorder with bitcoins that you would otherwise be holding and not rebuy them.

[SgtSpike]

BFL products are priced in USD.  They have no set BTC price precisely because they're sold for USD.  That using a payment processor allows you to bypass the process of having to convert BTC to USD yourself in order to pay for your order doesn't mean that you're buying the units for Bitcoin any more than the fact that my bank automatically converts my AUD to USD for my Amazon orders means that I'm buying books for AUD.

And if you paid 200 AUD for something, and later got a refund and only received 100 AUD, that would suck, wouldn't it?

Sure.  But why is that relevant?  Exchange rates change, there's nothing you can do about it.  They're unpredictable too - he could just as well be getting 400 AUD back instead of 100.

[repentance]

BFL products are priced in USD.  They have no set BTC price precisely because they're sold for USD.  That using a payment processor allows you to bypass the process of having to convert BTC to USD yourself in order to pay for your order doesn't mean that you're buying the units for Bitcoin any more than the fact that my bank automatically converts my AUD to USD for my Amazon orders means that I'm buying books for AUD.

And if you paid 200 AUD for something, and later got a refund and only received 100 AUD, that would suck, wouldn't it?

I'm not saying that it wouldn't suck.  My point was that I can't expect a refund in AUD because I didn't pay in AUD.  BFL (wisely) priced their product in relatively stable USD and received payments in that currency.  While it might suck for people who chose not to pay directly in USD, it's not like the people who chose to avoid directly using dirty fiat dollars didn't know that the Bitcoin price might move in a direction which disadvantaged them if they required a refund.

[ewhenn]

Nobody "lost" any BTC because they didn't actually pay in BTC.

Just because BFL didn't receive the coins, doesn't mean people didn't pay in BTC.

I actually have to agree here.

How did BFL invoice/bill their customers?

If BFL billed them in bitcoin, and the customers paid in bitcoin, then to my understanding, unless they have a clause in their terms of sale that specifically links the price to USD, then they are legally required to refund the full amount of purchase currency tendered. This would mean they legally can't just refund about half of the bitcoin because it roughly doubled in value. 

The fact that BFL used a third party that "invisibly to the customer" convert the received bitcoin to USD is irrelevant as the actual sale (and thus rights of sale) were conducted in BTC.