Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[KS]

EU generally has better consumer protection but even in the US "all sales are final" only applies once there is a sale.   A SALE occurs when the product is exchanged for money.  Until that happens there is no sale just a sales order.   BFL (and now KNC) have no legal leg to stand on by taking preorders and not allowing cancellation.  If you ask for a refund and they have already shipped you likely are out of luck.

NOT consumer, business.

That means either you come to an agreement with the seller or you sue. Lawsuit is a time+money pit. That's a pretty major difference.

If you paid via CC, you COULD try to get your money back via your card company, BUT that refund is only an advance and is not final (they could claim it back) since the seller can appeal the charge-back.

[DeathAndTaxes]

If you paid via CC, you COULD try to get your money back via your card company, BUT that refund is only an advance and is not final (they could claim it back) since the seller can appeal the charge-back.

Seller can always dispute a chargeback but given
a) seller promised delivery by day x
b) seller has not delivered at the time of chargeback
c) seller promised refunds up to the day of shipment.
c) buyer made good faith effort to make refund and was denied contrary to a,b & c above.

That is about as open and shut as it gets for credit card companies. 

BTW I don't think KNC is a "scam", I think they are working to ship as soon as possible and they likely will ship delayed but still magnitudes more timely than BFL but all that aside you don't accept orders under one set of terms, promise to allow refunds then break that promise and still not ship.   

[Spelon]

This has been discussed a lot of times before. KNC terms and conditions say they sell only to businesses. That way, they can offer a limited 1 year warranty rather than the normal 2 year consumer warranty a consumer is entitled to.

I think it's really pissed me off hearing him say "We are selling to the general public, anyone can buy from us" and then their t&c's, written long before this interview, say the exact opposite:
"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."
and
" 6. Limited Warranty
6.1  KnCMiner warrants that the Products, will perform according to the at all times published specification for a period of twelve (12) months from delivery"

yes but business customer have got usually signed contract with section about delivery condition and penalty if goods are not delivered as agreed. (usually discount in % of original price)

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HA HA. You obviously live on another planet and haven't read the actual t&c's. You don't have an order with them do you?

8. Delivery Terms

8.1  The Products are delivered EXW (Incoterms 2010) to the delivery address specified by the Purchaser, unless otherwise agreed. The delivery date is provided for information purposes only and shall not be binding on KnCMiner. The Purchaser is not entitled to refuse acceptance of the Products, withdraw, cancel or revoke the order or make claims for compensation due to any delayed delivery.

  EU customer protection laws are quite good

You can even write in your T&Cs: 'no refund in case your neighbor is a moron'
but it's does not mean anything, because there are laws which break all (invalid) T&Cs

And I guess selling to private persons (w/o VAT-ID) and stating 'business use only' is just another of those terms.

Anyone from Sweden in here?
One consulting session of a Swedish layer should not be too expensive, we might collect some satoshis via escrow in order to get reliable infos regarding this.

Swedish passport holder reporting in. No, you cannot contract your way out of consumer laws by pretending the sale is for business only while accepting orders without VAT or other supporting evidence of business operations. I was a bit unsure myself, so I contacted our office for consumer rights in Sweden and they confirmed it for me. However, this sadly does not concern me as I did buy thru my workplace.

[KS]

This has been discussed a lot of times before. KNC terms and conditions say they sell only to businesses. That way, they can offer a limited 1 year warranty rather than the normal 2 year consumer warranty a consumer is entitled to.

I think it's really pissed me off hearing him say "We are selling to the general public, anyone can buy from us" and then their t&c's, written long before this interview, say the exact opposite:
"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."
and
" 6. Limited Warranty
6.1  KnCMiner warrants that the Products, will perform according to the at all times published specification for a period of twelve (12) months from delivery"

yes but business customer have got usually signed contract with section about delivery condition and penalty if goods are not delivered as agreed. (usually discount in % of original price)

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HA HA. You obviously live on another planet and haven't read the actual t&c's. You don't have an order with them do you?

8. Delivery Terms

8.1  The Products are delivered EXW (Incoterms 2010) to the delivery address specified by the Purchaser, unless otherwise agreed. The delivery date is provided for information purposes only and shall not be binding on KnCMiner. The Purchaser is not entitled to refuse acceptance of the Products, withdraw, cancel or revoke the order or make claims for compensation due to any delayed delivery.

  EU customer protection laws are quite good

You can even write in your T&Cs: 'no refund in case your neighbor is a moron'
but it's does not mean anything, because there are laws which break all (invalid) T&Cs

And I guess selling to private persons (w/o VAT-ID) and stating 'business use only' is just another of those terms.

Anyone from Sweden in here?
One consulting session of a Swedish layer should not be too expensive, we might collect some satoshis via escrow in order to get reliable infos regarding this.

Swedish passport holder reporting in. No, you cannot contract your way out of consumer laws by pretending the sale is for business only while accepting orders without VAT or other supporting evidence of business operations. I was a bit unsure myself, so I contacted our office for consumer rights in Sweden and they confirmed it for me. However, this sadly does not concern me as I did buy thru my workplace.

And it's the contrary in Belgium. You accepted a business contract as a business, therefore you are considered a business (even though you're not).

[KS]

Seller can always dispute a chargeback but given
a) seller promised delivery by day x
b) seller has not delivered at the time of chargeback
c) seller promised refunds up to the day of shipment.
c) buyer made good faith effort to make refund and was denied contrary to a,b & c above.

That is about as open and shut as it gets for credit card companies.  
 

I was not making it a specific case like you, but yes, the case you describe would be very hard to dispute for the seller. But it also depends on the T&Cs.

edit: you could have partial refunds, pro-rata, time-dependent refunds, whatnot.

[Spelon]

This has been discussed a lot of times before. KNC terms and conditions say they sell only to businesses. That way, they can offer a limited 1 year warranty rather than the normal 2 year consumer warranty a consumer is entitled to.

I think it's really pissed me off hearing him say "We are selling to the general public, anyone can buy from us" and then their t&c's, written long before this interview, say the exact opposite:
"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."
and
" 6. Limited Warranty
6.1  KnCMiner warrants that the Products, will perform according to the at all times published specification for a period of twelve (12) months from delivery"

yes but business customer have got usually signed contract with section about delivery condition and penalty if goods are not delivered as agreed. (usually discount in % of original price)

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HA HA. You obviously live on another planet and haven't read the actual t&c's. You don't have an order with them do you?

8. Delivery Terms

8.1  The Products are delivered EXW (Incoterms 2010) to the delivery address specified by the Purchaser, unless otherwise agreed. The delivery date is provided for information purposes only and shall not be binding on KnCMiner. The Purchaser is not entitled to refuse acceptance of the Products, withdraw, cancel or revoke the order or make claims for compensation due to any delayed delivery.

  EU customer protection laws are quite good

You can even write in your T&Cs: 'no refund in case your neighbor is a moron'
but it's does not mean anything, because there are laws which break all (invalid) T&Cs

And I guess selling to private persons (w/o VAT-ID) and stating 'business use only' is just another of those terms.

Anyone from Sweden in here?
One consulting session of a Swedish layer should not be too expensive, we might collect some satoshis via escrow in order to get reliable infos regarding this.

Swedish passport holder reporting in. No, you cannot contract your way out of consumer laws by pretending the sale is for business only while accepting orders without VAT or other supporting evidence of business operations. I was a bit unsure myself, so I contacted our office for consumer rights in Sweden and they confirmed it for me. However, this sadly does not concern me as I did buy thru my workplace.

And it's the contrary in Belgium. You accepted a business contract as a business, therefore you are considered a business (even though you're not).

Thankfully they have to follow Swedish law. If all else fails, you can always do "the classic" and have a 16> year old sign/click the contract as they by law are unable to enter such in Sweden, a small headache for online shops.

[soy]

I had been running 4 or 5 machines donating computer time to Folding@Home for years.  Using only CPUs it was a lot of energy.  This was for team Soyrunner.  I quit when another distributed computing effort at a California university that in conjunction with a southeastern university developed a deactivation for herpes virus(es).  Not just herpes but a whole slew of similar viruses, this with a small molecular dimer that would block the clamshell trigger.  It should cure and/or prevent a whole class of cancers and autoimmune diseases.  Then a cousin's grandson, a teen, died of gaseous gangrene most likely as a result of a herpes infection.  The dimer discovery was a couple of years old at the time, about the time the Germans developed a molecular attachment for insulin that would increase its size and prevent insulin from passing from the system as quickly so much less insulin would be needed and less often.  That balloon molecule would probably work for the small molecule dimer that blocks the herpes clamshell.  So I quit FAH.  Sure, maybe it wasn't their distributed computing that contributed to the finding of that small molecule dimer but heck, the small molecule dimer still today hasn't made the news as being medically available.  You'd think they'd have a crash program to get it out there and available since it cures and/or prevents many cancers and autoimmune diseases.  So, I have some years with distributed computing spending money I really could have used much more effectively.  

Right now, looking at my Bitcoin miner expenditures and what I've mined, the whole Bitcoin adventure might end up costing me a lot more than I spent on distributed computing for FAH.  I have hopes the Mercury will be profitable.

[KS]

Thankfully they have to follow Swedish law. (...)

Amen to that (I guess ).

[btc_uzr]

(....)

Thankfully they have to follow Swedish law. If all else fails, you can always do "the classic" and have a 16> year old sign/click the contract as they by law are unable to enter such in Sweden, a small headache for online shops.

 

*maybe* they ship twice the amount ordered or give all a powerful FPGA-Scrypt miner freebee
they would reach legendary status as they have under promised, over delivered with 99,9% VERY satisfied customers - no ?

Would be boosting for all future sales as well, so you 'could' argue this way even from an economic/marketing point of view.
Think about it, can you just buy a 'legendary status as ASIC Bitcoin manufacturer' on ebay for small money?


I'm wondering anyways whether they really want to be part of the ASIC vendor market in long term.
Since at a certain point of mass perception/acceptance of BTC vendors like Intel or AMD will crush them I guess

btw intel took a closer look on sha256
http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/intel-sha-extensions

and 11 nm version (p1274) which is scheduled to roll out as Skymont in 2015 is sth. KnC could not compete with (just as an example!)
http://www.h-online.com/newsticker/news/item/Processor-Whispers-Of-dear-friends-and-engravers-1263024.html

[rizzman]

I really hope they ship by next week, I would have no problem waiting but after the recent BFL debacle I found out that I only have 120 days to institute a chargeback despite a representstive of my bank that claimed otherwise last November. They told me I had an unlimited period which became 120 days when I filed a claim against BfL. Got the BFL money refunded through PayPal oh the irony!

Anyways I placed the order on June 4th so that means I have to file the chargeback October 1st which means if there is no tracking number on Monday I will ask for a refund and on Tuesday file the chargeback. I really hope they keep their promises. I would have no problem waiting an extra week but the CC policy is going to force my hand and the lack of clear updates is not instilling confidence.

That is not true. I ordered all mah shit with my AMEX/Discovercard, and AMEX claimed that I only had 60 days to file a chargeback while Discover said they're is no limit. - 60 days from the expected delivery date. Considering they stated that orders would be shipped by September, they still have 2 days. This would mean that you have 60 days starting October 1st to initiate chargeback.

I know this works because I did it with my Terrahash order for $2100.00. I ordered on June 3rd, and initiated after Aug 15th and I received all of it back, It works. Calm down, and give them atleast till monday, you have options.

[MilkyLep]

Perhaps Orama showed up at KNC headquarters and they put him to work!  

[btc_uzr]

  ...shit ..now I have to clean up as I.. - ah let's skip it.....still laughing

good one

[Phoenix1969]

Granted, KNC will most likely have machines shipping this week... if a bit late. I'm getting an ulcer & migraine all at once with wondering if I'm going to be boarding a plane tuesday, or not, depending on when the miners ship, because I obviously need to beat them to their destination, but dont want to spend an unnecessarily long time lingering in the mainland, spending money waiting on miners to arrive, when I could be home making money.
One thing though... O'rama's silence is scaring me a bit. I know he said he would share video if there was something to vid, so obviously there isnt yet, probably monday there will be I'm hopiing.... but I had hoped we would hear something, vid, or no vid...  But he has taken alot of abuse in here, so I can understand being less eager to share.... or maybe even KNC asked him to keep quiet 'till monday, and they would let him film & post for the forum on the day of celebration....    just speculation again, of course...

[Slartybardfast]

Lol this thread is funny.. I have not laughed so much in ages.. Keep it up, there are still 2 nail biting days to completely lose the plot. 

[arousedrhino]

I really hope they ship by next week, I would have no problem waiting but after the recent BFL debacle I found out that I only have 120 days to institute a chargeback despite a representstive of my bank that claimed otherwise last November. They told me I had an unlimited period which became 120 days when I filed a claim against BfL. Got the BFL money refunded through PayPal oh the irony!

Anyways I placed the order on June 4th so that means I have to file the chargeback October 1st which means if there is no tracking number on Monday I will ask for a refund and on Tuesday file the chargeback. I really hope they keep their promises. I would have no problem waiting an extra week but the CC policy is going to force my hand and the lack of clear updates is not instilling confidence.

That is not true. I ordered all mah shit with my AMEX/Discovercard, and AMEX claimed that I only had 60 days to file a chargeback while Discover said they're is no limit. - 60 days from the expected delivery date. Considering they stated that orders would be shipped by September, they still have 2 days. This would mean that you have 60 days starting October 1st to initiate chargeback.

I know this works because I did it with my Terrahash order for $2100.00. I ordered on June 3rd, and initiated after Aug 15th and I received all of it back, It works. Calm down, and give them atleast till monday, you have options.

Tell that to my CC, I used a Visa and when I went through the chargeback process for BFL they stated that I was beyond the 120 day limit, and that the limit is counted from the day the CC was charged. Your CC is probably different but those are the rules for mine.

It just sucks I don't want to file a chargeback until we have given KNC at least a few weeks past the estimated september delivery date but if I don't file it now then I can never file it...

I guess on Oct 1st if there is no tracking number I will request a refund from KNC and call my CC company to start the chargeback process.

I would have used a different CC had I know about the limit when I ordered FWIW.

[btc_uzr]

Granted, KNC will most likely have machines shipping this week... if a bit late. I'm getting an ulcer & migraine all at once with wondering if I'm going to be boarding a plane tuesday, or not, depending on when the miners ship, because I obviously need to beat them to their destination, but dont want to spend an unnecessarily long time lingering in the mainland, spending money waiting on miners to arrive, when I could be home making money.
One thing though... O'rama's silence is scaring me a bit. I know he said he would share video if there was something to vid, so obviously there isnt yet, probably monday there will be I'm hopiing.... but I had hoped we would hear something, vid, or no vid...  But he has taken alot of abuse in here, so I can understand being less eager to share.... or maybe even KNC asked him to keep quiet 'till monday, and they would let him film & post for the forum on the day of celebration....    just speculation again, of course...

I'm not worried so far, but can feel your pain in the ass regarding the pick off flight booking.
I only have to bother myself when to do home office, but need to know it as well - since there are meetings and stuff

I guess Bitcoinorama is currently talking to them while having some beers.
I assume he will let us know tomorrow afternoon (GMT+2). We'll see.

[btc_uzr]

Lol this thread is funny.. I have not laughed so much in ages.. Keep it up, there are still 2 nail biting days to completely lose the plot.  

...can feel you...this kind of entertainment is so awesome  

*yes I have (still) money invested...as high risk investment shared with friends...so..  

[The Avenger]

Perhaps Orama showed up at KNC headquarters and they put him to work!  

I think when Orama turns up, they are going to ask him to stay in his hotel room - haven't you seen his facebook profile photo?



 
P.S. Countdown to mods deleting this - t minus 90 seconds? 

[rizzman]

I still believe Orama is a stand-up guy. He'll get in contact with us. and I think all will be ok. But if there are those of you out there which are down to the wire and have to make a decision on whether to initiate a chargeback or not, I would recommend you do it, atleast start the process. It will take several weeks to pan out, and from what I understand you can always drop the request.

[fragout]

just a little nugget of info from Orama would be nice. I have arrived, everything looks good, no info yet etc.
Actually better still, a little nugget from KNC would be better considering the last BIg news we got was on the 26th which was basically telling us we could no longer ask for refunds
 (The big news is that all the production orders that are due for delivery before October 15th have now been confirmed with the factory for final assembly and our production schedule is now locked. As such, we are not able to make any more changes)