Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[TERA2]

Finally did my taxes on CoinTracking. Neat.

[1685661539]

1685661539

[1685661539]

1685661539

[d_eddie]

The argument for taint and title is strong
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/Papers/making-bitcoin-legal.pdf

The authors don't detail much experimental evidence about their new taint model (basically FIFO accounting for taint), but they do offer a couple of numbers which, if supported by more testing, would be quite impressive. At any rate, there's ample food for thought.

If the legislative landscape they hint at really comes into being, I don't know where I'd stand on the line between "hard" and "soft" approaches. Bitcoin enthusiasts? Investors? Law enforcement? All of these positions would entail both "good" and "bad" practical consequences from my self-interested point of view.

Nice piece of work. Computer scientists discussing legal implications with a practical, technically sound background. A rarity.

Tasty find merited.

One of the problems with such a 'taint' system that it doesn't address, is what of coins falsely declared stolen? In the paper they seem to assume all such declarations to be honest, but in practice it just moves the arguments to the lawyer-enriching 'how to get these coins declared stolen or not' level.

Hm, I hadn't thought of that.

Can you name a scenario where the game of falsely reporting a crime ("someone stole my coins!") has a positive probabilistic sum? Penalties can be harsh, and partners in crime won't be happy to see their newly tainted coins decrease in value.

Just look at the endless similar scenarios in day-to-day business, deals that go wrong, counterparties accused of all sorts variations of theft, bad faith, lies, non-delivery etc, even in the strong legal cultures of the first world. Let alone what goes on in places like Russia or parts of Africa.

Just make an example, please. I still don't follow you. Remember, once a coin is successfully disputed, it is tainted. This is not always desirable. Furthermore, if they bust you bullshitting the system, it's trouble that goes beyond losing some coin.

No, write access to 'the list' of in-dispute coins would very soon become the salient issue. And who could dispute cleanliness? Only the immediate previous owner? Or how owners many back? Or not directly involved parties as well? Me? You? Pretty soon everything could be 'tainted', and thus nothing would be.

With LIFO tainting, there's no taint spread. WHICH addresses get tainted might be arbitrary in some cases (coin mixers/tumblers, especially).

I'm thinking how this would work in a world where LN has taken hold. LN is a bit of a tumbler in itself. Once a coin reaches, say, Amazon or Starbucks... who takes the hit when the taint hits the fan and some customers rightly complain? They haven't considered this - or maybe that paper is pre-LN, I haven't checked the date.

I think the only way Bitcoin can work longterm is as a bearer instrument: you possess it, you own it. In fact, I think this - (Roger notwithstanding) - is the key "cash" part of the "peer-to-peer cash" description.

In that paper, this is called the "bitcoin enthusiast" (or supporter?) position.

[HairyMaclairy]

Can you name a scenario where the game of falsely reporting a crime ("someone stole my coins!") has a positive probabilistic sum? Penalties can be harsh, and partners in crime won't be happy to see their newly tainted coins decrease in value.

Reporting doesn’t need to be false to be damaging. 

A sends coins to exchange and sells, withdrawing different coins.  B truthfully claims that A stole the coins and sues exchange for value of the coins.  Exchange is liable to compensate B. 

[HairyMaclairy]

Finally did my taxes on CoinTracking. Neat.

You may have just successfully shilled me.

[Paashaas]

Any reason for the dump?

Because Bank of America called Bitcoin in it's current form still a bubble...

Looking at BoA balance sheet...lol.

[LFC_Bitcoin]

Finally did my taxes on CoinTracking. Neat.

You may have just successfully shilled me.

Haha brilliant

[fabiorem]

I believe some sharks are day-trading bitcoin. They are selling near 8k and buying back at 6k. That's so petty.

[B1tUnl0ck3r]

I believe some sharks are day-trading bitcoin. They are selling near 8k and buying back at 6k. That's so petty.

no i believe it's the friends of putin tyrant of the kremlin who just realize that their rhetoric is simply words... of course they are trying to delay the inevitable, hoping to have a force capable for them to attack.... sadly, against the united market and war markers... only former uneducated communists could fall on such stupidity, like having it's own daughter used as fuck hole to make the husbi rich... because daddy is so blinded by corruption, hate, a desire for hegemony and a denial of defeat that he couldn't see it... that's the kgb in one example... able to enslave people across the world, but unable to see the fox inside the pussy of one own the daughter... pathetic.

[jojo69]

bearer instrument

we have a BINGO

[realr0ach]

no it's the enemy of the world, the enemy of isreal, the enemy of life

no i believe it's the friends of putin tyrant of the kremlin

This is why the Jews have been kicked out of countries over 100 times before and will be kicked out of the US, UK, and all of Europe again.  Every single word out of their mouths is always a lie or scam.  They're literal demons who are physically unable to speak the truth.  

[B1tUnl0ck3r]

no it's the enemy of the world, the enemy of isreal, the enemy of life

no i believe it's the friends of putin tyrant of the kremlin

This is why the Jews have been kicked out of countries over 100 times before and will be kicked out of the US, UK, and all of Europe again.  Every single word out of their mouths is always a lie or scam.

you know it's iran / russian propaganda... it's not the fault of the jewish kids if their parents force them to read... that give an hedge for sure... and can be proved by scanning the forum on how some should at least try.

[TERA2]

no it's the enemy of the world, the enemy of isreal, the enemy of life

no i believe it's the friends of putin tyrant of the kremlin

This is why the Jews have been kicked out of countries over 100 times before and will be kicked out of the US, UK, and all of Europe again.  Every single word out of their mouths is always a lie or scam.  They're literal demons who are physically unable to speak the truth.

Are you referring to religious jews or genetic jews, and what about half jews?

[Colonel Panic]

The argument for taint and title is strong
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/Papers/making-bitcoin-legal.pdf

The authors don't detail much experimental evidence about their new taint model (basically FIFO accounting for taint), but they do offer a couple of numbers which, if supported by more testing, would be quite impressive. At any rate, there's ample food for thought.

If the legislative landscape they hint at really comes into being, I don't know where I'd stand on the line between "hard" and "soft" approaches. Bitcoin enthusiasts? Investors? Law enforcement? All of these positions would entail both "good" and "bad" practical consequences from my self-interested point of view.

Nice piece of work. Computer scientists discussing legal implications with a practical, technically sound background. A rarity.

Tasty find merited.

One of the problems with such a 'taint' system that it doesn't address, is what of coins falsely declared stolen? In the paper they seem to assume all such declarations to be honest, but in practice it just moves the arguments to the lawyer-enriching 'how to get these coins declared stolen or not' level.

Hm, I hadn't thought of that.

Can you name a scenario where the game of falsely reporting a crime ("someone stole my coins!") has a positive probabilistic sum? Penalties can be harsh, and partners in crime won't be happy to see their newly tainted coins decrease in value.

Just look at the endless similar scenarios in day-to-day business, deals that go wrong, counterparties accused of all sorts variations of theft, bad faith, lies, non-delivery etc, even in the strong legal cultures of the first world. Let alone what goes on in places like Russia or parts of Africa.

Just make an example, please. I still don't follow you. Remember, once a coin is successfully disputed, it is tainted. This is not always desirable. Furthermore, if they bust you bullshitting the system, it's trouble that goes beyond losing some coin.

No, write access to 'the list' of in-dispute coins would very soon become the salient issue. And who could dispute cleanliness? Only the immediate previous owner? Or how owners many back? Or not directly involved parties as well? Me? You? Pretty soon everything could be 'tainted', and thus nothing would be.

With LIFO tainting, there's no taint spread. WHICH addresses get tainted might be arbitrary in some cases (coin mixers/tumblers, especially).

I'm thinking how this would work in a world where LN has taken hold. LN is a bit of a tumbler in itself. Once a coin reaches, say, Amazon or Starbucks... who takes the hit when the taint hits the fan and some customers rightly complain? They haven't considered this - or maybe that paper is pre-LN, I haven't checked the date.

I think the only way Bitcoin can work longterm is as a bearer instrument: you possess it, you own it. In fact, I think this - (Roger notwithstanding) - is the key "cash" part of the "peer-to-peer cash" description.

In that paper, this is called the "bitcoin enthusiast" (or supporter?) position.

Really? You can't think of people making false accusations in business? On the border of wasting my time here, but, off the top of my head...

Alice sells Bob, a landlord/developer, an occupied building for bitcoin. Chuck, a tenant, wants to stay and declares that some rent paid to Bob elsewhere was earned on Silk Road. Now what?

You say "successfully disputed", I say that "successfully" involves a new layer of lawyers.

You say "they bust you bullshitting the system, its trouble..." I say "ho ho, Deripaska, Zuma..."

[realr0ach]

no it's the enemy of the world, the enemy of isreal, the enemy of life

no i believe it's the friends of putin tyrant of the kremlin

This is why the Jews have been kicked out of countries over 100 times before and will be kicked out of the US, UK, and all of Europe again.  Every single word out of their mouths is always a lie or scam.  They're literal demons who are physically unable to speak the truth.

Are you referring to religious jews or genetic jews, and what about half jews?

As an example, the other day Alex Jones was talking about something stupid and mentioned how all the "globalists" have demonic looking Joker smiles 24/7.  He accidentally named off two people who had this appearance that happened to be Jews and the Jews went balistic and called him Hitler.  His observation was actually 100% true, though.  Just take a look at these mentally deranged demons like Jew Michael Milken "the junk bond king":





I'm not saying the Jews are actually demons (hell if I know, maybe they really are), but you can tell by the looks on these creature's faces there are serious mental derangement issues in that bloodline.  The one guy from Israel who occasionally posts in this thread actually agreed with me.  He said mental insanity is all over the place in Israel.

[B1tUnl0ck3r]

no it's the enemy of the world, the enemy of isreal, the enemy of life

no i believe it's the friends of putin tyrant of the kremlin

This is why the Jews have been kicked out of countries over 100 times before and will be kicked out of the US, UK, and all of Europe again.  Every single word out of their mouths is always a lie or scam.  They're literal demons who are physically unable to speak the truth.

Are you referring to religious jews or genetic jews, and what about half jews?

maybe the asians of "hardward"... anyway that's not the point...

the question is where to grow weed in russia once the tyrants of the kremlin and their families are finally dead and the russian people free from their brainwashing and propaganda...

the problem is that soviet union left a lot of very large toxic area unmarked... everything will need to be prospected again...

the less possible made in russia or china for me as long as they continue their suicide mission...

no it's the enemy of the world, the enemy of isreal, the enemy of life

no i believe it's the friends of putin tyrant of the kremlin

This is why the Jews have been kicked out of countries over 100 times before and will be kicked out of the US, UK, and all of Europe again.  Every single word out of their mouths is always a lie or scam.  They're literal demons who are physically unable to speak the truth.

Are you referring to religious jews or genetic jews, and what about half jews?

As an example, the other day Alex Jones was talking about something stupid and mentioned how all the "globalists" have demonic looking Joker smiles.  He accidentally named off two people who had this appearance that happened to be Jews and the Jews went balistic and called him Hitler.  His observation was actually 100% true, though.  Just take a look at these mentally deranged demons like Jew Michael Milken "the junk bond king":



I'm not saying the Jews are actually demons (hell if I know, maybe they really are), but you can tell by the looks on these creature's faces there are serious mental derangement issues in that bloodline.  The one guy from Israel who occasionally posts in this thread actually agreed with me.  He said mental insanity is all over the place in Israel.

what I don't understand is why this constant reference to medical field in russian propaganda? what's the reality of mental illness in russia? only putin dissident that are tortured in "asylum"?

ps remember to ask your chain of command... 4 for 1... it's a nice deal...

[Last of the V8s]

tasty find my arse

[B1tUnl0ck3r]

tasty find my arse

I just did... look it's insane :

Mental health in Russia is covered by a law, known under its official name—the Law of the Russian Federation "On Psychiatric Care and Guarantees of Citizens' Rights during Its Provision"; Russian: Зaкóн Poccи́йcкoй Фeдepáции «O пcиxиaтpи́чecкoй пóмoщи и гapáнтияx пpaв гpáждaн пpи eё oкaзáнии», Zakon Possiyskoy Federatsii "O psikhiatricheskoy pomoshchi i garantyakh prav grazhdan pri yeyo okazanii"), which is the basic legal act that regulates psychiatric care in the Russian Federation and applies not only to persons with mental disorders but all citizens.[1] A notable exception of this rule is those vested with parliamentary or judicial immunity.[2] Providing psychiatric care is regulated by a special law regarding guarantees of citizens' rights.[3]

what a surprise... surprising they didn't yet declare bitcoin a mental illness .

more lol

Despite the 1992 Russian Mental Health Law, coercive psychiatry in Russia remains generally unregulated and fashioned by the same trends toward hyperdiagnosis and overreliance on institutional care characteristic of the Soviet period.[44] In Russia, mental health care is meant to be provided by inpatient psychiatric facilities rather than by outpatient services.[45] In the Soviet Union, there had been an increase of the bed numbers because psychiatric services had been used to treat dissidents.[46] In 2005, the Russian Federation had one of the highest levels of psychiatric beds per capita in Europe at 113.2 per 100,000 population, or more than 161,000 beds.[47] In 2014, Russia has 104.8 beds per 100,000 population and no actions have been taken to arrange new facilities for outpatient services.[48] The number of outpatient clinics designed for the primary care of the mentally disordered stopped increasing in 2005 and was reduced to 277 in 2012 as against 318 in 2005.[48] An average patient's stay in a day-and-night inpatient psychiatric facility is extremely long, 75.5 days.[45] Nevertheless, the average rehospitalization rate in the Russian Federation amounts to 21.5%, and the portion of people kept in inpatient facilities longer than one year was 21.7% in 2012[45] and 22.2% in 2013.[49] Psychiatrist Sofia Dorinskaya says she saw former convicts who have been living in a Russian mental hospital for ten years and will have been staying there until their dying day because of having no home.[50] The total number of the mentally ill registered disabled has increased by 20% over a few years, from 826,036 in 1999 to 1,020,002 in 2008 for the population of 141.9 million in the country (2010 figure).[51]

so that's it... if the russian propagandists don't work it's straight there...

very interesting how they hide those facts...

[nazzer]

So ... any theories on that huge $400-500 dollar drop just now?

[Last of the V8s]

They've been saying all year that institutions are getting into bitcoin.
They omitted that it is mental institutions.

[Last of the V8s]

So ... any theories on that huge $400-500 dollar drop just now?

Longs taking profits.