Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Millionero]

 throughout history fiat paper has typically been a derivative (receipt) of physical metals.

I'm not sure that paper money started as PM receipts.
This is Marco Polo describing Kublai Khan's paper money in the thirteenth century:

He makes his money after this fashion. He makes them take of the bark of a certain tree, in fact of the mulberry tree, the leaves of which are the food of the silkworms, these trees being so numerous that whole districts are full of them. What they take is a certain fine white bast or skin which lies between the wood of the tree and the thick outer bark, and this they make into something resembling sheets of paper, but black. When these sheets have been prepared they are cut up into pieces of different sizes. All these pieces of paper are issued with as much solemnity and authority as if they were of pure gold or silver; and on every piece a variety of officials, whose duty it is, have to write their names, and to put their seals. And when all is prepared duly, the chief officer deputed by the Khan smears the seal entrusted to him with vermilion, and impresses it on the paper, so that the form of the seal remains imprinted upon it in red; the money is then authentic. Anyone forging it would be punished with death.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/08/05/the-invention-of-money

[realr0ach]

Yea, paper money has been everything from free floating to a derivative of rice, to a derivative of physical metals and various other things.  But the point is that paper money that doesn't instantly implode usuallly doesn't implode due to being a receipt for an actual commodity resource.  When paper money tries to free float it's far more likely to just be a temporary blip on the radar and insta-die.  You can kind of see how this correlates into being a very negative thing for Bitcoin not being a real commodity or resource and all.  

If technology existed to facilitate Bitcoin's creation in the year 0 AD, it would not exist today.  Not because of dark ages or anything like that, simply because it's not a real commodity or resource and thus there is no reason for anyone to consistently place value in it on a long enough timeline beyond speculation (pump and dump scams).  Bitcoin would and will fall to the wayside like any standard fiat.  Fiats don't die solely due to printing too much.  They can die from people simply not giving a fuck about them because they aren't resources.  Which is why Aristotle says money is required to be a physical commodity resource and why Plato is an idiot.

[bkbirge]

So the gold people have the equal of monero. :-)

Haha! Classic!

[VB1001]

https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-fixes-this-thousands-of-fake-gold-bars-dilute-market-supply

As Reuters reported on Aug. 28, the gold industry is currently facing a forgery crisis — with fake kilogram bars found in the vaults of major banks such as JPMorgan Chase.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-gold-swiss-fakes-exclusive/exclusive-fake-branded-bars-slip-dirty-gold-into-world-markets-idUSKCN1VI0DD

The gold is real, and very high purity, with only the markings faked. Fake-branded bars are a relatively new way to flout global measures to block conflict minerals and prevent money-laundering.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-fixes-this-thousands-of-fake-gold-bars-dilute-market-supply

As Reuters reported on Aug. 28, the gold industry is currently facing a forgery crisis — with fake kilogram bars found in the vaults of major banks such as JPMorgan Chase.

Hope they are good at acting surprised

Note: The "fake" bars are real gold, however they have fake stamps for provenance.

So the gold people have the equal of monero. :-)

Woops, you beat me to it.

Bars or ingots may contain tungsten, the density of tungsten similar to gold.

Ingot tests containing tunsgten obtain a purity of 99.9xx% ...

The problem now is the cost of re-verifying the supply chain.

Here they talk a little about this: > https://twitter.com/nic__carter/status/1166716515082756096

LBMA http://www.lbma.org.uk/assets/market/gdl/GD_Rules_16_July_FINAL_20190722.pdf

[jojo69]

The list of reasons to hold bitcoin keeps growing:

Imagine five years ago if in one solitary week the president of the United States of America -


Referred to himself as 'the chosen one'

'Hereby' ordered all American companies to leave China just like that.

Attempted to buy another country and called the PM of its custodian 'nasty' and cancelled his visit when they said they weren't too keen.


Truly, we are living in v strange times.

I do wonder what happened to the "Oath Takers", those guys who would do anything to protect the constitution against an overreaching President.

Weird.

almost like some bizarre collective amnesia...what are the chances?

[realr0ach]

I do wonder what happened to the "Oath Takers", those guys who would do anything to protect the constitution

Murdered by Jewish Bolsheviks.

[arewethereyet?]

Every once in awhile I like to look at old bitcoin purchases.....

In March 2014 I bought a Wii U for 1btc.

I'm looking at it now. See how stupid I was?

HODL

I look at past purchases every day. Bitcoin related art on my living room wall. Id be dishonest if i didnt consider the relative cost, but i still smile. Then i walk into the toilet and look at my NXTdot painting. At this point, I tend to turn 90 degrees into the mirror, and have a word with myself.

[realr0ach]

Bars or ingots may contain tungsten, the density of tungsten similar to gold.

Harder to fake silver because molybdenum is used and it's not as close to silver as tungsten is to gold.  Even still, in ultrasonic testing sound waves pass through tungsten almost twice as fast as through gold, so it totally gives it away. There's just a million different ways to test metals now where it's pretty difficult to be fooled if your operating budget is high enough to keep the lights turned on because you'd be able to afford testing equipment.  

Having said that, 1 oz coins (or lower) are by far the easiest to test, so in any metals remonetization, virtually nobody is going to be paying anyone with kilo bars or anything like that besides central bankers storing various bricks.  I think just about all the metals would wind up being melted for small denomination coinage as they should be.  In the old days I think the US govt actually did it for free if you brought your bullion to them.

[ðºÞæ]

https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-fixes-this-thousands-of-fake-gold-bars-dilute-market-supply

As Reuters reported on Aug. 28, the gold industry is currently facing a forgery crisis — with fake kilogram bars found in the vaults of major banks such as JPMorgan Chase.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-gold-swiss-fakes-exclusive/exclusive-fake-branded-bars-slip-dirty-gold-into-world-markets-idUSKCN1VI0DD

The gold is real, and very high purity, with only the markings faked. Fake-branded bars are a relatively new way to flout global measures to block conflict minerals and prevent money-laundering.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-fixes-this-thousands-of-fake-gold-bars-dilute-market-supply

As Reuters reported on Aug. 28, the gold industry is currently facing a forgery crisis — with fake kilogram bars found in the vaults of major banks such as JPMorgan Chase.

Hope they are good at acting surprised

Note: The "fake" bars are real gold, however they have fake stamps for provenance.

So the gold people have the equal of monero. :-)

Woops, you beat me to it.

Bars or ingots may contain tungsten, the density of tungsten similar to gold.

Ingot tests containing tunsgten obtain a purity of 99.9xx% ...

The problem now is the cost of re-verifying the supply chain.

Here they talk a little about this: > https://twitter.com/nic__carter/status/1166716515082756096

LBMA http://www.lbma.org.uk/assets/market/gdl/GD_Rules_16_July_FINAL_20190722.pdf

A if any forgery then most likely "in house".
B we are not in dark ages anymore to relay on scales to check purity of gold. Anyone dealing with a kilo gold bar will check for imperfection in a scan.
On smaller lots get a magnet, tungsten is more magnetic, other than that a serious wack with a centre punch will sort it in no time. (want change the weight) A long long time i sold 95% of gold holding, selling the first piece almost ripped the heart out.

[VB1001]

Bitcoin can't be faked, I'm fine with this.

[P_Shep]

Every once in awhile I like to look at old bitcoin purchases.....

In March 2014 I bought a Wii U for 1btc.

I'm looking at it now. See how stupid I was?

HODL

Recently sold a DSLR for £500, which was bought for ~£320,000.

Seemed like a good idea at the time.

[realr0ach]

Bitcoin can't be faked, I'm fine with this.

Of course Bitcoin can be faked.  PoW does nothing to solve rough consensus attack.  You can have forks where there's no real 'winner' fork and the so-called minority fork doesn't die which seems to have already happened a few times.  It was thought they would need to have different algos for that to occur so the fact it can happen with the same algo is hilarious and just shows you how wrong most assumptions about Bitcoin are. 

'Forking' is not supposed to be some type of pre-planned, conspiracy process decided upon years in advance by people sitting in offices in New York either.  It's supposed to be a much more on the fly, continuous voting process that can spontaneously happen at any second, so having chains that don't die with the same algo is kind of a problem.  Then you have the fact Bitcoin is required to do things like fork everything to be quantum secure, and all those options are completely arbitrary, so there is no 'real' and 'fake' bitcoin at all because who decides in a scheme not governed by longest chain?  They're basically all fake and arbitrary in that context.  Then there's the good old 51% attack, and...why bother.

[gembitz]

Bitcoin can't be faked, I'm fine with this.

if it's in coinbase(or any other third party app) it will be!!    ~n00bs will get rekt.

[jojo69]

Oh wow.  I stand corrected.

Have never heard of a loss carry back.  

Thank you - you taught me something today.

I withdraw my prior comments.

Your welcome my very gracious friend.  I learned more than I wanted about the insanely complex tax code as an entrepreneur.

as stated before, my primary objection to the whole goddamned thing

[mersal]

Bitcoin can't be faked, I'm fine with this.

But there are some fake coins with bitcoin name on it.

- Bitcoin gold
 
- Bitcoin cash

- Bitcoin Diamond

- Bitcoin SV

- Lightning Bitcoin

Still there are some people who can't differentiate bitcoin from these shitcoins.

[VB1001]

Exactly.

BTCitcoin there is only one.

[jbreher]

WOgame. Right now. Where am I?



If you don't get it post haste, I'll add pixels.

[realr0ach]

Still there are some people who can't differentiate bitcoin from these shitcoins.

Quantify the difference in the word "Bitcoin" and "Shitcoin".  There is none.  Everything about Bitcoin is arbitrary.  Everything about 'shitcoin' is arbitrary.  It was a bogus propaganda word invented by people like Luke Jr to try and hide the fact digital craptocurrencies have no valid Schelling point.  You can't create a new noble metal like gold or silver in your basement, but anyone can create a new, imaginary, digital scamtoken.  None of them act as a valid focal point since they're all just arbitrary, Rube Goldberg machines.  He'll probably flip over some strange Catholic bible passage someday making him realize he was worshipping false idols instead of using 'God's money' - physical metals.

[Toxic2040]

Oh wow.  I stand corrected.

Have never heard of a loss carry back.  

Thank you - you taught me something today.

I withdraw my prior comments.

Your welcome my very gracious friend.   I learned more than I wanted about the insanely complex tax code as an entrepreneur.

as stated before, my primary objection to the whole goddamned thing

------

WOgame. Right now. Where am I?



If you don't get it post haste, I'll add pixels.

Say hello to Andreas from the Wall.

[Krubster]

WOgame. Right now. Where am I?



If you don't get it post haste, I'll add pixels.

Toxic2040 beat me to it, but it indeed looks like the forehead of Andreas M. Antonopoulos. Is it #BTC2019 in Denver?