MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[cozytrade]

Original Japanese is literally described as "Related Companies", and I don't see any missing points from the translator.

https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20150202_tibanne.pdf

"...I, as the Bankruptcy Trustee of MtGox, will continue to make efforts to take necessary measures with respect to collection of receivables due from affiliated companies, etc."

What "affiliated companies, etc"?

It may be an incorrect translation from the Japanese.  He must be referring to Tibanne and the Bitcoin Cafe, which could be said to be "connected" or "related" to MtGOX.  "Affiliated" (from the Latin for "child") means "subordinated to" or "owned by"; the subtle distinction may have been missed by the translator.

[1714125356]

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[1714125356]

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[macsga]

https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20150202_tibanne.pdf

"...I, as the Bankruptcy Trustee of MtGox, will continue to make efforts to take necessary measures with respect to collection of receivables due from affiliated companies, etc."

What "affiliated companies, etc"?

It may be an incorrect translation from the Japanese.  He must be referring to Tibanne and the Bitcoin Cafe, which could be said to be "connected" or "related" to MtGOX.  "Affiliated" (from the Latin for "child") means "subordinated to" or "owned by"; the subtle distinction may have been missed by the translator.

Doubt if Bitcoin Cafe has enough left to buy a latte.

Agree. He drank all the frappuccinos himself...

[JorgeStolfi]

https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20150202_tibanne.pdf
"...I, as the Bankruptcy Trustee of MtGox, will continue to make efforts to take necessary measures with respect to collection of receivables due from affiliated companies, etc."

What "affiliated companies, etc"?

It may be an incorrect translation from the Japanese.  He must be referring to Tibanne and the Bitcoin Cafe, which could be said to be "connected" or "related" to MtGOX.  "Affiliated" (from the Latin for "child") means "subordinated to" or "owned by"; the subtle distinction may have been missed by the translator.

Original Japanese is literally described as "Related Companies", and I don't see any missing points from the translator.

Thanks.  Tibanne and Bitcoin Cafe are certainly "related" to MtGOX but not "affiliated" to it.

[DrApricot]

https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20150202_tibanne.pdf
"...I, as the Bankruptcy Trustee of MtGox, will continue to make efforts to take necessary measures with respect to collection of receivables due from affiliated companies, etc."

What "affiliated companies, etc"?

It may be an incorrect translation from the Japanese.  He must be referring to Tibanne and the Bitcoin Cafe, which could be said to be "connected" or "related" to MtGOX.  "Affiliated" (from the Latin for "child") means "subordinated to" or "owned by"; the subtle distinction may have been missed by the translator.

Original Japanese is literally described as "Related Companies", and I don't see any missing points from the translator.

Thanks.  Tibanne and Bitcoin Cafe are certainly "related" to MtGOX but not "affiliated" to it.

Three points:
(1) The great atmosphere of secrecy Kolin Burgess says is "sprinkled over everything like an artificial sweetener to hide things we're not going to like, cover up poor progress, avoid answering awkward questions etc." (See mtgoxprotest.com)
(2) Mark Karpeles was asked to sign a non-disclosure agreement (NDA). He talked about this on Reddit. Who, or what does this NDA protect?
(3) Kobayashi's plan to have the Mt. Gox servers wiped before turning them over to Kraken (which could more or less destroy the possibility of doing any sophisticated data recovery on them.)

Now the trustee says he will "take necessary measures with respect to collection of receivables due from affiliated [sic 'related'] companies, etc." He apparently must be talking about two bankrupt/defunct entities, Tibanne and Bitcoin Cafe. If so, then why waste his time on collecting money from two broke companies?

This month marks the first anniversary of the closure of Mt. Gox. When it closed down almost a year ago, we thought we knew (because they told us so) that Mt. Gox had been hacked. Now we know even less than we thought we knew back then.

Can this rabbit hole that we've fallen down still get even murkier yet?

[JorgeStolfi]

(2) Mark Karpeles was asked to sign a non-disclosure agreement (NDA). He talked about this on Reddit. Who, or what does this NDA protect?

Mark has lied before, so, whatever he said or says (except in an official deposition, under penalty for perjury) should be ignored.

Ukyo of BitFunder also claimed to have signed an NDA at the demand of US authorities.  That a convenient excuse to refuse to answer hard questions.

Now the trustee says he will "take necessary measures with respect to collection of receivables due from affiliated companies, etc." He apparently must be talking about two bankrupt/defunct entities, Tribanne and Bitcoin Cafe. If so, then why waste his time on collecting money from two broke companies?

Neither company was officially bankrupt.  Bitcoin Cafe was non-functioning, but Tibanne still was functioning after a fashion. IIRC it was trying to sell the trademark "bitcoin" and/or the DNS name "bitcoin.com", that it acquired before MtGOX's collapse.  Tibanne also claimed to be a creditor of MtGOX, since the staff was hired by Tibanne and provided by Tibanne to MtGOX; and Kobayashi had to authorize that payment.

But now Mark is refusing to repay the loans that he made to Tibanne and Bitcoin cafe (i.e., to himself).  So Kobayashi has formally asked for Tibanne to be placed in involuntary bankruptcy.  I understand that it is a necessary step to get an investigation of Tibanne's aaccounting, and perhaps getting Mark personally liable for the loan.

This month marks the first anniversary of the closure of Mt. Gox. When it closed down almost a year ago, we thought we knew (because they told us) that Mt. Gox had been hacked. Now we know even less than we thought we knew back then.

It was mark who claimed that the site had been hacked.  We now know that there was some internal foul play.  The police investigation is still udnerway, I believe.

Did the MtGOX victims warn the Court and Kobayashi about Jesse Powell's close involvement with Mark and MtGOX in 2011?  On that occasion, Jesse Jesse got to see and fix the insides of the system...

[DrApricot]

Did the MtGOX victims warn the Court and Kobayashi about Jesse Powell's close involvement with Mark and MtGOX in 2011?  On that occasion, Jesse Jesse got to see and fix the insides of the system...

Kraken = son of Sunlot?

[bitcoinvest]

and even after pages and pages here in this topic we don't have an idea where are our bitcoins

[DrApricot]

and even after pages and pages here in this topic we don't have an idea where are our bitcoins

What does that tell you? 

It's one year later, and the only thing so far the police have said is that they believe 99% of them disappeared through insider fraud.

MK is still a free man, so apparently he has never been implicated. Then, who dun it? Miss Scarlett, Colonel Mustard,...??

[Syke]

What does that tell you? 

It's one year later, and the only thing so far the police have said is that they believe 99% of them disappeared through insider fraud.

MK is still a free man, so apparently he has never been implicated. Then, who dun it? Miss Scarlett, Colonel Mustard,...??

Someone who had access...

[Newar]

and even after pages and pages here in this topic we don't have an idea where are our bitcoins

If the amount of posts on this forum and proceedings in the real world were related, the world would be a different place.

[DrApricot]

What does that tell you? 

It's one year later, and the only thing so far the police have said is that they believe 99% of them disappeared through insider fraud.

MK is still a free man, so apparently he has never been implicated. Then, who dun it? Miss Scarlett, Colonel Mustard,...??

Someone who had access...

Could this cat have made a deal that if she is held immune from prosecution (being caged), then somehow those missing coins may turn up?

[bitcoinvest]

since ancient egypt cat's where thought to be unique animals - gods...
where did that cat comes from?
he has bitcoins inside her mind...

[DrApricot]

since ancient egypt cat's where thought to be unique animals - gods...
where did that cat comes from?
he has bitcoins inside her mind...

"But in July 2013, Der-Yeghiayan, who worked in Chicago, testified that over his objections, federal prosecutors in Baltimore met with Karpeles as part of an investigation over unlicensed money transfers.

Exact details of the meeting were unclear and are expected to be part of Der-Yeghiayan's testimony when trial resumes Tuesday.

Dratel sought to elicit testimony that Karpeles had offered to "tell the government who he thought runs Silk Road" to avoid charges."http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/16/us-usa-bitcoin-trial-idUSKBN0KP00520150116

The judge declared Der-Yeghiayan's testimony all hearsay, didn't she? Was this agent ever given a chance to testify about the details of this meeting?

[bitcoinvest]

do you know the asnwer on that because i don't

[DrApricot]

do you know the asnwer on that because i don't

I'll have to give a qualified "no" on that, since I wasn't there to hear, but my understanding is the judge shut-down Der-Yeghiayan's testimony, and instructed the jury to ignore most of the rest. Suffice it to say, MK was a lead suspect, so far as being the mastermind behind SR, before the investigation begun to focus in on Ulbricht as the key person of interest. It would be interesting to hear this agent's side of the story even though he was never really allowed to testify very much. Not sure how it relates to the Mt. Gox collapse, if it even does.

[bitcoinvest]

and as the days goes by nothing new as i know...
any news around the web??? anybody???

[DrApricot]

and as the days goes by nothing new as i know...
any news around the web??? anybody???

See: Report: Mt Gox Data Provides More Clues to Trading Bot 'Willy'
http://www.coindesk.com/report-mt-gox-data-provides-more-clues-to-trading-bot-willy
It's mostly a rehash of the Willy Report, but this seemed new to me:

More information is also needed with regards to what happened to the bitcoins bought by Willy, as well as the USD that "reverse Willy" [emphasis added] had accumulated in February.

Willy's purpose is also unclear. More clarity is needed to decipher whether it was simply a buying tool or whether it attempted to manipulate the market price.

I've never heard anything before about a "reverse Willy". If there was any short selling going on with all of the coins purchased by Willy and Markus, perhaps "reverse Willy" was involved in unloading them. Anyone know anything about this reverse bot?

Mt Gox was in the hole cashwise by the end of February, so what happened to all the USD supposedly accumulated by  "reverse Willy"? Follow the money!

[JorgeStolfi]

and as the days goes by nothing new as i know...
any news around the web??? anybody???

See: Report: Mt Gox Data Provides More Clues to Trading Bot 'Willy'
http://www.coindesk.com/report-mt-gox-data-provides-more-clues-to-trading-bot-willy
It's mostly a rehash of the Willy Report, but this seemed new to me:

More information is also needed with regards to what happened to the bitcoins bought by Willy, as well as the USD that "reverse Willy" [emphasis added] had accumulated in February.

Willy's purpose is also unclear. More clarity is needed to decipher whether it was simply a buying tool or whether it attempted to manipulate the market price.

I've never heard anything before about a "reverse Willy". If there was any short selling going on with all of the coins purchased by Willy and Markus, perhaps "reverse Willy" was involved in unloading them. Anyone know anything about this reverse bot?

Mt Gox was in the hole cashwise by the end of February, so what happened to all the USD supposedly accumulated by  "reverse Willy"? Follow the money!

The report explains it: Willy, or a robot that behaved very much like it, started selling BTC instead of buying BTC, apparently after the price crashed.

In my theory, that would be expected: Willy was doing arbitrage between MtGOX and some Chinese exchange, and the Chinese exchanges were leading the price.  Then willy should buy while the price was rising (because the price in China would be higher than at MtGOX) and sell while the price was crashing (when China was lower).

My guess is that, during the rally, Willy had been buying real BTC with non-existing USD.  The owner hoped to get the CNY out for China at a later time, and fill the USD hole in MtGOX's accounting (with profit) before anyone noticed. Later, during the crash, the reversed Willy would have been selling non-existent BTC (since the real ones had been already sold in China) for USD in the client accounts.  Although these were mostly nonexistent USD, the trades still made sense because they reduced the size of the USD hole that Willy's owner would have to fill, whicle creating a BTC hole of a somewhat smaller value  (because of the China-MtGOX spread).

But (still my guess) the CNY were not taken out of China, either intentionally or due to some snag (the PBoC decrees, default by the Chinese accomplice, whatever). So MtGOX was left with huge BTC and USD holes, an the rest is history.

Beware about putting too much weight on the "Willy report" by that investigative firm.  It is entirely based on the leaked database, which was copied by parties unknown sometime before the final collapse.  We do not know whether the leaked copy is reliable; it may have been doctored and leaked specifically to shift the attention away from the real facts and culprits.  Indeed, we now know that the copy that the police got from the servers was incomplete (or worse).  The leaked database included records of deposits and withdrawals, but the firm has no way of checking whether those records match the actual deposits and withdrawals. In particular, AFAIK the blockchain addresses that received the BTC widthrawals were not leaked. (The police has bank records, and should have those addresses, hopefully.)

[DrApricot]

and as the days goes by nothing new as i know...
any news around the web??? anybody???

See: Report: Mt Gox Data Provides More Clues to Trading Bot 'Willy'
http://www.coindesk.com/report-mt-gox-data-provides-more-clues-to-trading-bot-willy
It's mostly a rehash of the Willy Report, but this seemed new to me:

More information is also needed with regards to what happened to the bitcoins bought by Willy, as well as the USD that "reverse Willy" [emphasis added] had accumulated in February.

Willy's purpose is also unclear. More clarity is needed to decipher whether it was simply a buying tool or whether it attempted to manipulate the market price.

I've never heard anything before about a "reverse Willy". If there was any short selling going on with all of the coins purchased by Willy and Markus, perhaps "reverse Willy" was involved in unloading them. Anyone know anything about this reverse bot?

Mt Gox was in the hole cashwise by the end of February, so what happened to all the USD supposedly accumulated by  "reverse Willy"? Follow the money!

The report explains it: Willy, or a robot that behaved very much like it, started selling BTC instead of buying BTC, apparently after the price crashed.

In my theory, that would be expected: Willy was doing arbitrage between MtGOX and some Chinese exchange, and the Chinese exchanges were leading the price.  Then willy should buy while the price was rising (because the price in China would be higher than at MtGOX) and sell while the price was crashing (when China was lower).

My guess is that, during the rally, Willy had been buying real BTC with non-existing USD.  The owner hoped to get the CNY out for China at a later time, and fill the USD hole in MtGOX's accounting (with profit) before anyone noticed. Later, during the crash, the reversed Willy would have been selling non-existent BTC (since the real ones had been already sold in China) for USD in the client accounts.  Although these were mostly nonexistent USD, the trades still made sense because they reduced the size of the USD hole that Willy's owner would have to fill, whicle creating a BTC hole of a somewhat smaller value  (because of the China-MtGOX spread).

But (still my guess) the CNY were not taken out of China, either intentionally or due to some snag (the PBoC decrees, default by the Chinese accomplice, whatever). So MtGOX was left with huge BTC and USD holes, an the rest is history.

Beware about putting too much weight on the "Willy report" by that investigative firm.  It is entirely based on the leaked database, which was copied by parties unknown sometime before the final collapse.  We do not know whether the leaked copy is reliable; it may have been doctored and leaked specifically to shift the attention away from the real facts and culprits.  Indeed, we now know that the copy that the police got from the servers was incomplete (or worse).  The leaked database included records of deposits and withdrawals, but the firm has no way of checking whether those records match the actual deposits and withdrawals. In particular, AFAIK the blockchain addresses that received the BTC widthrawals were not leaked. (The police has bank records, and should have those addresses, hopefully.)

According to your explanation, someone in China must be sitting on a huge pile of stranded yuan that they got for selling their unpaid-for bitcoins extracted from Mt. Gox. If in fact this is where the monetary value of the missing bitcoins and dollar balances ended up, and said missing property fails to ever be restored to the Mt. Gox trustee, would this not constitute theft on the part of the CNY holder(s)? Assuming it is so, then it contradicts the Tokyo police claim that insider fraud was at the root of the Mt. Gox collapse and not mere theft. There is a rather fine line between theft and fraud, yet nevertheless this is probably one instance in which precise language would be preferable.

[JorgeStolfi]

According to your explanation, someone in China must be sitting on a huge pile of stranded yuan that they got for selling their unpaid-for bitcoins extracted from Mt. Gox. If in fact this is where the monetary value of the missing bitcoins and dollar balances ended up, and said missing property fails to ever be restored to the Mt. Gox trustee, would this not constitute theft on the part of the CNY holder(s)? Assuming it is so, then it contradicts the Tokyo police claim that insider fraud was at the root of the Mt. Gox collapse and not mere theft. There is a rather fine line between theft and fraud, yet nevertheless this is probably one instance in which precise language would be preferable.

Note that is is not an "explanation", just a "theory".  Precise language is preferable.    Many others are possible, but this one seems more likely to me.

The boundaries of theft and fraud are kinda fuzzy, and they often overlap.  I could say that buying bitcoins from customers with non-existent money was fraud, taking possession of those coins was theft.

In that theory, the CNY from the sale of those coins may have been confiscated by the Chinese government, may be sitting in an account of a Chinese exchange, may have been withdrawn by Willy's owner or by an accomplice.  In the latter case, the money may be in possession of any person involved, in CNY or laundered into other currencies.

In that theory, at least one of the Chinese exchange managers must have been aware of the massive transfers from MtGOX.  However, at the time it probably looked legitimate arbitrage.  The fault was that the arbitrager stole the coins from MtGOX clients, instead of buying them with real dollars; and the Chinese need not have been aware of that.

From the perspective of the Chinese government, during Nov/2013 the amateur Chinese traders imported at least a million  totally unproductive pieces of nothing, without going through customs, and were about to pay the equivalent of half a billion dollars or more in CNY to foreign sellers.  Obviously the PBoC must have been extremely unhappy about that.  So, in my mind it is not unlikely that one of the goals of the December decrees was to block this sizable leak in their national trade balance and prevent that pile of CNY from leaving the country.