Vaccinated vs. Unvaccinated: Guess who is Sicker?

[Astargath]

https://sharylattkisson.com/2018/12/10/cdc-possibility-that-vaccines-rarely-trigger-autism/

Interesting quote from CDC official. CDC: “Possibility” that vaccines rarely trigger autism. Sounds like the usual slow walk they do when they know they are facing massive liabilities.

Vaccines are a tricky issue.
They have been sold as harmless which is a lie.

Ramping up and priming the immune system is never a zero risk affair.
That process is akin to the functional equivalent of emergently deploying your armed forces to a war zone only to find the enemy tied up and helpless.

Most of the time things work out ok. Sometimes not so much. In rare circumstances the tied up invaders might get free somehow and then you have a real war. Sometimes the deployed army goes rogue and starts attacking civilians. The odds are low but not zero. Another potential issue is the metal preservatives used in vaccines to prevent bacterial growth especially in the multi dose vials they sometimes use in the cheeper flu vaccines.

However, the benefits of vaccination are gargantuan. The elimination of smallpox was a true  triumph of modern medicine and its success also means we no longer need to take the smallpox vaccine. It should be possible to repeat that achievement with polio.

The problem arises from a lack of honesty. We are almost certainly better off vaccinating against the nastier of the diseases until we can figure out how to eliminate them. The powers that be seem to fear that if a genuine discussion of this topic is allowed to occur.

1) People being unable to rationally understand risks will improperly evaluate low probability adverse events and refuse vaccines even when it is in their best interest to get them.
2) People will opt to rely on herd immunity choosing to let others assume the burden. If enough people do this it will lead to peroidic outbreaks of disease.

These fears are not entirely unjustified. However, our dishonesty about the issue also prevents rational cost/benefit decisions about vaccines especially vaccines for less dangerous things like the flu or disease that can be minimized via other lifestyle factors such as HPV. Dishonesty blinds the rational as well as the irrational.

Of course, like with everything, there are side effects and they are not 100% safe. People here, however, seem to think that they are being made on purpose like that, to kill us or to make us sick which is delusional. They also don't believe vaccines stopped smallpox or anything ever.

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[CoinCube]

Of course, like with everything, there are side effects and they are not 100% safe. People here, however, seem to think that they are being made on purpose like that, to kill us or to make us sick which is delusional. They also don't believe vaccines stopped smallpox or anything ever.

They believe those things because their is no genuine attempt made to clearly delineate the level of harm vaccines cause.

This information is hidden or never researched as the unwashed masses are deemed too irrational or immoral to handle it. So a minority assumes the worst which is understandable.

The only long term solution is total transparency.

[mOgliE]

I can't believe this is still a topic in my experience thanks to vaccines I was able to avoid all these nasty diseases when I was still a kid

This is not a topic. Only people here are the idiots that started the topic, simply because even when you put MONSTRUOUS EVIDENCES RIGHT UNDER THEIR NOSES they ignor it and continue the subject.

It's not like vaccines allowed the worst diseases to disappear and have saved billions of humans, no not at all 

There isn't a single scientist who deny vaccines are essentials. The only debate you can have are:
-Can they have side effects?
-Should they be mandatory? And which ones?
-Shouldn't vaccines be made directly by the state and not by private companies (as it's mandatory, making them by private companies mean you make it mandatory to pay those companies)

I don't see any other debate that can be interesting. Anything like "Vaccines aren't good" is not only stupid, it's pure denial of reality and the advances of science.

Like those Trumptard like to say "if you don't like vaccines go into one of those wonderful countries without mandatory vaccines, there are plenties of them" xD

[Astargath]

Of course, like with everything, there are side effects and they are not 100% safe. People here, however, seem to think that they are being made on purpose like that, to kill us or to make us sick which is delusional. They also don't believe vaccines stopped smallpox or anything ever.

They believe those things because their is no genuine attempt made to clearly delineate the level of harm vaccines cause.

This information is hidden or never researched as the unwashed masses are deemed too irrational or immoral to handle it. So a minority assumes the worst which is understandable.

The only long term solution is total transparency.

Yeah probably but it's a slippery slope. If they come out and say vaccines aren't 100% safe and there is a chance your kid will get something undesirable, A LOT more parents will stop vaccinating their kids which will lead to really bad consequences in the future.

[CoinCube]

Yeah probably but it's a slippery slope. If they come out and say vaccines aren't 100% safe and there is a chance your kid will get something undesirable, A LOT more parents will stop vaccinating their kids which will lead to really bad consequences in the future.

Here you are incorrect. Institutionalized falsehood always in the long run leads to worse outcomes then truth. Your logic is understandable. Indeed its probably the very logic the scientist in TECSHARE article used when he falsified his research. It is also wrong.

The problem with lying is that there are always unanticipated side effects. By giving the general impression that any disease for which we have a vaccine is effectively cured as well as the false idea that vaccines do no harm leads to the following bad outcomes.

1) We become apathetic about actually eliminating the disease. We have only wiped out only one disease in history and that was decades ago. That is pathetic given our level of technological development. Measles, Rubella, Hepatitis B, Polio, ect are all diseases with no animal reservoir and a viable vaccine. There is no logical reason that these diseases should not all be extinct within 15 years. Then we would never need to consider taking a vaccine for it again. However, no one cares anymore because they view it as someone else's problem. They have had their "safe" vaccine why bother.

2) Lies are always exposed. Once they are what chance do you have of wiping out disease then? Do you really think primitive uneducated people will trust you and take their vaccines even when it is their interest to do so once the vaccination proponent has been exposed as a liar and caught minimizing the dangers of his vaccine?

3) Vaccine's work but have rare catastrophic outcomes, the heavy metal preservatives used in some of them are also probably cumulatively toxic with some preservatives worse then others. These are risks that can be minimized and mitigated if we prioritized doing so. We don't prioritize risk reduction when we deny the risk exists.

In the long run falsehood is far more destructive then truth.

If we are honest and fully disclose everything about vaccines yes there would be many who would initially refused to take them relying on others and hoping to hide in the herd immunity. It would even probably lead to disease outbreaks among the unvaccinated in first world countries. However, in the long run it will set the stage for the true elimination of these pathogens.

[Zen_Garden]

I can say about myself, I've got all vaccines required before 6 years old, and throughout that time I almost never left hospitals. In particular, I had an allergic arthritis after specific vaccine, and for a long time after that I was haunted by severe heartache. I was a sick child altogether before my mom forbade doctors to vaccinate me. I haven't got any single vaccine after 10, since then my heartaches were gone.

[Astargath]

Yeah probably but it's a slippery slope. If they come out and say vaccines aren't 100% safe and there is a chance your kid will get something undesirable, A LOT more parents will stop vaccinating their kids which will lead to really bad consequences in the future.

Here you are incorrect. Institutionalized falsehood always in the long run leads to worse outcomes then truth. Your logic is understandable. Indeed its probably the very logic the scientist in TECSHARE article used when he falsified his research. It is also wrong.

The problem with lying is that there are always unanticipated side effects. By giving the general impression that any disease for which we have a vaccine is effectively cured as well as the false idea that vaccines do no harm leads to the following bad outcomes.

1) We become apathetic about actually eliminating the disease. We have only wiped out only one disease in history and that was decades ago. That is pathetic given our level of technological development. Measles, Rubella, Hepatitis B, Polio, ect are all disease with no animal reservoir and a viable vaccine. There is no logical reason that these diseases should not be extinct with 15 years. Then we would never need to consider taking a vaccine for it again. However, no one cares anymore because they view it as someone else's problem. They have had their "safe" vaccine why bother.

2) Lies are always exposed. Once they are what chance do you have of wiping out disease then? Do you really think primitive uneducated people will trust you and take their vaccines even when it is their interest to do so once the vaccination has been exposed as a liar and caught minimizing the dangers of his vaccine.

3) Vaccine's work but have rare catastrophic outcomes, the heavy metal preservatives used in some of them are also probably cumulatively toxic with some preservatives worse then others. These are risks that can be minimized and mitigated if we prioritized doing so. We don't prioritize risk reduction when we deny the risk exists.

In the long run falsehood is far more destructive then truth.

If we are honest and fully disclose everything about vaccines yes there would be many who would initially refused to take them relying on others and hoping to hide in the herd immunity. It would even probably lead to disease outbreaks among the unvaccinated in first world countries. However, in the long run it will set the stage for the true elimination of these pathogens.

Perhaps you are right, although at this point they have pretty much confirmed that vaccines aren't 100% safe.

[BADecker]

Of course, like with everything, there are side effects and they are not 100% safe. People here, however, seem to think that they are being made on purpose like that, to kill us or to make us sick which is delusional. They also don't believe vaccines stopped smallpox or anything ever.

Well, it is on purpose. They would make them safe if they didn't want to harm people. Of course, the only way to do that is to stop using them altogether.

[CoinCube]

Of course, like with everything, there are side effects and they are not 100% safe. People here, however, seem to think that they are being made on purpose like that, to kill us or to make us sick which is delusional. They also don't believe vaccines stopped smallpox or anything ever.

Well, it is on purpose. They would make them safe if they didn't want to harm people. Of course, the only way to do that is to stop using them altogether.

I don't agree.

Vaccines can never be made totally safe. You cannot activate the immune system without running risks.
They could potentially be made safer if we prioritized it but the best possible outcome is risk minimization and disease elimination so the vaccines become unnecessary.

Take measles the risk of death among those infected is usually 0.2% with modern medicine, Most of those who die from the infection are less than five years old. If we did not vaccinate against this it would be endemic everyone would be exposed to it most often in early childhood. One in every five hundred would die from it. That coupled with the suffering of the disease itself far exceeds whatever harm the vaccine causes.

Measles is an ideal target for elimination it is:

* A specifically human disease, with no animal reservoir.
* An acute, self-limiting disease, infectious for others for only about a week..
* Has method of intervention (vaccination) that works; elimination has been achieved manu countries as a result of immunization.

Even if you think the measles vaccine is worse then endemic measles which is doubtful the risks of the vaccines is or should be of a finite limited duration until said disease is eradicated.

I admit the case is much weaker for things like the annual flu vaccine.

[Single Serving Friend]

Vaccines are the most effective public health measure humans have invented, with an incredible risk to benefit ratio and cost-effectiveness. It’s a shame really, terrible diseases mankind essentially defeated are now making a comeback.

[Astargath]

Of course, like with everything, there are side effects and they are not 100% safe. People here, however, seem to think that they are being made on purpose like that, to kill us or to make us sick which is delusional. They also don't believe vaccines stopped smallpox or anything ever.

Well, it is on purpose. They would make them safe if they didn't want to harm people. Of course, the only way to do that is to stop using them altogether.

I don't agree.

Vaccines can never be made totally safe. You cannot activate the immune system without running risks.
They could potentially be made safer if we prioritized it but the best possible outcome is risk minimization and disease elimination so the vaccines become unnecessary.

Take measles the risk of death among those infected is usually 0.2% with modern medicine, Most of those who die from the infection are less than five years old. If we did not vaccinate against this it would be endemic everyone would be exposed to it most often in early childhood. One in every five hundred would die from it. That coupled with the suffering of the disease itself far exceeds whatever harm the vaccine causes.

Measles is an ideal target for elimination it is:

* A specifically human disease, with no animal reservoir.
* An acute, self-limiting disease, infectious for others for only about a week..
* Has method of intervention (vaccination) that works; elimination has been achieved manu countries as a result of immunization.

Even if you think the measles vaccine is worse then endemic measles which is doubtful the risks of the vaccines is or should be of a finite limited duration until said disease is eradicated.

I admit the case is much weaker for things like the annual flu vaccine.

Just like every pharmaceutical drug, side effects are always there because it's extremely hard to make a drug that works only where it's supposed to work and not affect anything else in your body. Some people have come close and I'm sure in the near future we will have drugs with no side effects but for the time being, anything has side effects, it's a fact.

I don't know about the annual flu vaccine, in my country you don't have to do that, I haven't been vaccinated in decades.

[BADecker]

Of course, like with everything, there are side effects and they are not 100% safe. People here, however, seem to think that they are being made on purpose like that, to kill us or to make us sick which is delusional. They also don't believe vaccines stopped smallpox or anything ever.

Well, it is on purpose. They would make them safe if they didn't want to harm people. Of course, the only way to do that is to stop using them altogether.

I don't agree.

Vaccines can never be made totally safe. You cannot activate the immune system without running risks.
They could potentially be made safer if we prioritized it but the best possible outcome is risk minimization and disease elimination so the vaccines become unnecessary.

Take measles the risk of death among those infected is usually 0.2% with modern medicine, Most of those who die from the infection are less than five years old. If we did not vaccinate against this it would be endemic everyone would be exposed to it most often in early childhood. One in every five hundred would die from it. That coupled with the suffering of the disease itself far exceeds whatever harm the vaccine causes.

Measles is an ideal target for elimination it is:

* A specifically human disease, with no animal reservoir.
* An acute, self-limiting disease, infectious for others for only about a week..
* Has method of intervention (vaccination) that works; elimination has been achieved manu countries as a result of immunization.

Even if you think the measles vaccine is worse then endemic measles which is doubtful the risks of the vaccines is or should be of a finite limited duration until said disease is eradicated.

I admit the case is much weaker for things like the annual flu vaccine.

Just like every pharmaceutical drug, side effects are always there because it's extremely hard to make a drug that works only where it's supposed to work and not affect anything else in your body. Some people have come close and I'm sure in the near future we will have drugs with no side effects but for the time being, anything has side effects, it's a fact.

I don't know about the annual flu vaccine, in my country you don't have to do that, I haven't been vaccinated in decades.

How long have vaccines been used? In a big way, only since the discovery of penicillin. However, forms similar to injection have been use for thousands of years in a small way.

In all this time, the immediate benefit of vaccines has been seen along with some immediate failures. But there never was any way to measure the long term effects in the past. Now studies and are showing that vaccines are producing long range defects in people, years down the road after they are vaccinated.

It seems that modern medicine has known or suspected this for decades. Yet rather than finding ways to cure without the use of vaccines, they are promoting vaccines more than ever.

Something that can replace vaccines without the bad side effects is nutritional juicing. The juicing of all kinds of plants can cure without the side effects. Adding some of the pulp simply adds nutrient strength that isn't found in the juice. This is well known among nutritionists, but it is being ignored by the medical.

So, we can see that the medical is out there not to help people, but to farm them to make more money off them. How do they do this? By keeping them sick enough to ask for more medicine, but well enough so that they don't die before they can pay for their medicine.

Vaccines are s*** for healing people.

[BADecker]

The article says that the medical has been lying about the autism vaccine dangers for at least 14 years, but this is just the tiny tip of the iceberg of medical lies, both about vaccines and other medicine. If you search for it, you will find that chemo has killed more people than cancer has.


Scientific voices speak out unequivocally about vaccines and their dangers

Now that it’s been exposed that the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has been lying about the connection between vaccines and autism for at least 14 years, many prominent doctors and health practitioners are now coming forward to corroborate the fact that vaccines are, in fact, harming children.

Dr. Kenneth Aitken, M.D., a child psychologist from Great Britain, recently told The Telegraph that he’s seen autism rates increase in conjunction with the MMR vaccine for measles, mumps, and rubella.

“When I was in training, one in 2,500 (children were autistic),” Dr. Aitken told the U.K. paper. “Now, it is one in 250. At the moment, the only logical explanation is MMR.”

Dr. Jane Orient, M.D., executive director of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons and professor of clinical medicine at the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, has expressed similar feelings on the subject.

Read the whole article. It's quite interesting, with links included.

[CoinCube]

The article says that the medical has been lying about the autism vaccine dangers for at least 14 years, but this is just the tiny tip of the iceberg of medical lies, both about vaccines and other medicine. If you search for it, you will find that chemo has killed more people than cancer has.


Scientific voices speak out unequivocally about vaccines and their dangers

Now that it’s been exposed that the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has been lying about the connection between vaccines and autism for at least 14 years, many prominent doctors and health practitioners are now coming forward to corroborate the fact that vaccines are, in fact, harming children.

Dr. Kenneth Aitken, M.D., a child psychologist from Great Britain, recently told The Telegraph that he’s seen autism rates increase in conjunction with the MMR vaccine for measles, mumps, and rubella.

“When I was in training, one in 2,500 (children were autistic),” Dr. Aitken told the U.K. paper. “Now, it is one in 250. At the moment, the only logical explanation is MMR.”

Dr. Jane Orient, M.D., executive director of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons and professor of clinical medicine at the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, has expressed similar feelings on the subject.

Read the whole article. It's quite interesting, with links included.

Again this is what comes from dishonesty people lose trust. However, even if we assume the worst case scenario the situation is not so clear. Without the light of honesty everyone is blind.

Lets assume for a moment that the authors suspicion in this case are entirely correct at the MMR vaccine alone has causes autism at a rate of 1 in 250. Now it could be much much lower then that. There are a lot of other toxins that have crept into the western diet particularly pesticides that could be contributing to something like this. There is also an increase in diagnosis motivated by government benefits. For example many children today who are diagnosed today with ADHD for example would have be considered rambunctious boys in the past.

However, for the sake of this discussion lets assume MMR alone causes autism in 1 in 250. We then have to compare that harm to the benefit of suppressing the disease. Without MMR almost everyone would be exposed to Measles Mumps and Rubella at some point in their lives. Measles for example is spread via respiration and has close to a 90% transmission rate to other household members living in the same home.

Measles with current first world medicine has a fatality rate of 0.2%. One in 500 would die if this disease was allowed to rampage unchecked through the population. There is no nutritional cure for viral diseases. Only the majestic workings of the immune system can do that. Things like vitamin C can help the immune system function slightly better especially if an individual is deficient in the necessary vitamin but it is no cure. With a terrible disease like Measles the immune system steps up and does an excellent job. With good nutrition and modern supportive care IV fluids and the like the immune system succeeds 499 out of 500 times 0.2% of the time it fails mostly in young children.  

So now we are comparing 1 in 250 with childhood autism to 1 in 500 dead children. You could argue that maybe the vaccines do other things. Maybe they cause autoimmune disorders, maybe they cause allergies. However, you have to contrast that to the damage of Mumps and Rubella which we have not yet tallied as well as the disabilities that would result from the people who almost died from Measles and suffered some form of organ or brain injury as a result.

The ethical picture is not so clear. This is what comes from working in the dark. When people in power think the masses are too ignorant to kept informed. It is the logical result the erroneous belief that the ends justify the means.

The best course of action at this point given the very real fear of these vaccines is to conduct a large randomized controlled trial in a first world country where these disease are mostly gone. Then the true results and health effects of vaccinated versus vaccinated children could be examined. The raw data should be released to the pubic not just the analysis. Then we could all know and not guess at the harm done. Trust in the scientific community would be somewhat restored. The probable result of this would be somewhere in between the two extremes. Vaccines are probably not nearly as harmful as the anti-vaccine advocates fear but they are probably far more harmful then is commonly believed.

For my own part I have vaccinated my children against the horrible diseases with a high mortality rate. They have been vaccinated against MMR for example. However, I refuse the childhood vaccinations for the less deadly diseases such as the flu as well as those that diseases that can be avoided by behavioral modifications like HPV.  

When I vaccinate my children, however, I rage internally that I live in a society so dishonest that it is not even willing to seriously address either the topic of vaccine danger or even worse undertake seriously the task of exterminating these diseases. Its been 40 years now since we have eliminated one of these deadly disease despite having the technology to do so for generations. That fact more then any other in the entire discussion is symbolic of the rot in our world.

[Astargath]

The article says that the medical has been lying about the autism vaccine dangers for at least 14 years, but this is just the tiny tip of the iceberg of medical lies, both about vaccines and other medicine. If you search for it, you will find that chemo has killed more people than cancer has.


Scientific voices speak out unequivocally about vaccines and their dangers

Now that it’s been exposed that the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has been lying about the connection between vaccines and autism for at least 14 years, many prominent doctors and health practitioners are now coming forward to corroborate the fact that vaccines are, in fact, harming children.

Dr. Kenneth Aitken, M.D., a child psychologist from Great Britain, recently told The Telegraph that he’s seen autism rates increase in conjunction with the MMR vaccine for measles, mumps, and rubella.

“When I was in training, one in 2,500 (children were autistic),” Dr. Aitken told the U.K. paper. “Now, it is one in 250. At the moment, the only logical explanation is MMR.”

Dr. Jane Orient, M.D., executive director of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons and professor of clinical medicine at the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, has expressed similar feelings on the subject.

Read the whole article. It's quite interesting, with links included.

Again this is what comes from dishonesty people lose trust. However, even if we assume the worst case scenario the situation is not so clear. Without the light of honesty everyone is blind.

Lets assume for a moment that the authors suspicion in this case are entirely correct at the MMR vaccine alone has causes autism at a rate of 1 in 250. Now it could be much much lower then that. There are a lot of other toxins that have crept into the western diet particularly pesticides that could be contributing to something like this. There is also an increase in diagnosis motivated by government benefits. For example many children today who are diagnosed today with ADHD for example would have be considered rambunctious boys in the past.

However, for the sake of this discussion lets assume MMR alone causes autism in 1 in 250. We then have to compare that harm to the benefit of suppressing the disease. Without MMR almost everyone would be exposed to Measles Mumps and Rubella at some point in their lives. Measles for example is spread via respiration and has close to a 90% transmission rate to other household members living in the same home.

Measles with current first world medicine has a fatality rate of 0.2%. One in 500 would die if this disease was allowed to rampage unchecked through the population. There is no nutritional cure for viral diseases. Only the majestic workings of the immune system can do that. Things like vitamin C can help the immune system function slightly better especially if an individual is deficient in the necessary vitamin but it is no cure. With a terrible disease like Measles the immune system steps up and does an excellent job. With good nutrition and modern supportive care IV fluids and the like the immune system succeeds 499 out of 500 times 0.2% of the time it fails mostly in young children.  

So now we are comparing 1 in 250 with childhood autism to 1 in 500 dead children. You could argue that maybe the vaccines do other things. Maybe they cause autoimmune disorders, maybe they cause allergies. However, you have to contrast that to the damage of Mumps and Rubella which we have not yet tallied as well as the disabilities that would result from the people who almost died from Measles and suffered some form of organ or brain injury as a result.

The ethical picture is not so clear. This is what comes from working in the dark. When people in power think the masses are too ignorant to kept informed. It is the logical result the erroneous belief that the ends justify the means.

The best course of action at this point given the very real fear of these vaccines is to conduct a large randomized controlled trial in a first world country where these disease are mostly gone. Then the true results and health effects of vaccinated versus vaccinated children could be examined. The raw data should be released to the pubic not just the analysis. Then we could all know and not guess at the harm done. Trust in the scientific community would be somewhat restored. The probable result of this would be somewhere in between the two extremes. Vaccines are probably not nearly as harmful as the anti-vaccine advocates fear but they are probably far more harmful then is commonly believed.

For my own part I have vaccinated my children against the horrible diseases with a high mortality rate. They have been vaccinated against MMR for example. However, I refuse the childhood vaccinations for the less deadly diseases such as the flu as well as those that diseases that can be avoided by behavioral modifications like HPV.  

When I vaccinate my children, however, I rage internally that I live in a society so dishonest that it is not even willing to seriously address either the topic of vaccine danger or even worse undertake seriously the task of exterminating these diseases. Its been 40 years now since we have eliminated one of these deadly disease despite having the technology to do so for generations. That fact more then any other in the entire discussion is symbolic of the rot in our world.

Yes, you are absolutely right. This is basically like the ''The trolley dilemma'' where you basically have two options, kill 1 guy or kill 5 people, of course people will chose killing 1 person instead of 5 even though you don't want to kill anyone because, well, that's the best choice. It's the same in real life, unfortunately we cannot save everyone and it's not because pharma and other companies are doing it on purpose. (At least not most of the times)

[CoinCube]

Yes, you are absolutely right. This is basically like the ''The trolley dilemma'' where you basically have two options, kill 1 guy or kill 5 people, of course people will chose killing 1 person instead of 5 even though you don't want to kill anyone because, well, that's the best choice. It's the same in real life, unfortunately we cannot save everyone and it's not because pharma and other companies are doing it on purpose. (At least not most of the times)

Your underlined statement highlights the fear that drives the anti-vaccine movement. Its a fear that is not entirely unreasonable. How do we know they are not doing it on purpose say for population reduction or elimination of undesirables? Why won't the powerful someday use this forced vector to impose their vision on the rest of us?

Yes this is conspiracy theory and no I don't believe this is currently happening but how to we know it is not happening?

The answer is that such an action would be evil and we trust that honest scientists and vaccine makers would never do such a horrific thing and that if they did other honest scientists would expose them.

But what happens when the vaccine makers and scientists have demonstrated that they are no longer trustworthy? What happens when they have been caught hiding the unpleasant findings of vaccine effects. Well then there is no trust and many choose to reject vaccines.

I sympathize with the anti-vaccine crowd. Their's is something of a rebellion against the corruption of the sciences and the abandonment of truth in favor of expediency. I think they have the wrong answer. I think the correct answer is that we should return to honesty we should fully disclose everything possible and do honest studies that address the fears of those worried about vaccines. My suspicion is that the truth will motivate us to actually eliminate these horrible pathogens.

Our situation is probably much worse then that of the poor soul placed in the position where he can redirect the train so it will kill one or leave it on it's course where it kills five. Our situation is probably much closer that of the poor man who has just made that awful choice killed the one to save the five. He then sits back and relaxes confident he has the solution to such problems unworried that there are a series of identical forks coming up over the next few miles with similar numbers of people on them.

No need work hard and figure out a way to stop the train or get people off the tracks altogether. We already have our solution.

[BADecker]

The article says that the medical has been lying about the autism vaccine dangers for at least 14 years, but this is just the tiny tip of the iceberg of medical lies, both about vaccines and other medicine. If you search for it, you will find that chemo has killed more people than cancer has.


Scientific voices speak out unequivocally about vaccines and their dangers

Now that it’s been exposed that the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has been lying about the connection between vaccines and autism for at least 14 years, many prominent doctors and health practitioners are now coming forward to corroborate the fact that vaccines are, in fact, harming children.

Dr. Kenneth Aitken, M.D., a child psychologist from Great Britain, recently told The Telegraph that he’s seen autism rates increase in conjunction with the MMR vaccine for measles, mumps, and rubella.

“When I was in training, one in 2,500 (children were autistic),” Dr. Aitken told the U.K. paper. “Now, it is one in 250. At the moment, the only logical explanation is MMR.”

Dr. Jane Orient, M.D., executive director of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons and professor of clinical medicine at the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, has expressed similar feelings on the subject.

Read the whole article. It's quite interesting, with links included.

Again this is what comes from dishonesty people lose trust. However, even if we assume the worst case scenario the situation is not so clear. Without the light of honesty everyone is blind.

Lets assume for a moment that the authors suspicion in this case are entirely correct at the MMR vaccine alone has causes autism at a rate of 1 in 250. Now it could be much much lower then that. There are a lot of other toxins that have crept into the western diet particularly pesticides that could be contributing to something like this. There is also an increase in diagnosis motivated by government benefits. For example many children today who are diagnosed today with ADHD for example would have be considered rambunctious boys in the past.

However, for the sake of this discussion lets assume MMR alone causes autism in 1 in 250. We then have to compare that harm to the benefit of suppressing the disease. Without MMR almost everyone would be exposed to Measles Mumps and Rubella at some point in their lives. Measles for example is spread via respiration and has close to a 90% transmission rate to other household members living in the same home.

Measles with current first world medicine has a fatality rate of 0.2%. One in 500 would die if this disease was allowed to rampage unchecked through the population. There is no nutritional cure for viral diseases. Only the majestic workings of the immune system can do that. Things like vitamin C can help the immune system function slightly better especially if an individual is deficient in the necessary vitamin but it is no cure. With a terrible disease like Measles the immune system steps up and does an excellent job. With good nutrition and modern supportive care IV fluids and the like the immune system succeeds 499 out of 500 times 0.2% of the time it fails mostly in young children.  

So now we are comparing 1 in 250 with childhood autism to 1 in 500 dead children. You could argue that maybe the vaccines do other things. Maybe they cause autoimmune disorders, maybe they cause allergies. However, you have to contrast that to the damage of Mumps and Rubella which we have not yet tallied as well as the disabilities that would result from the people who almost died from Measles and suffered some form of organ or brain injury as a result.

The ethical picture is not so clear. This is what comes from working in the dark. When people in power think the masses are too ignorant to kept informed. It is the logical result the erroneous belief that the ends justify the means.

The best course of action at this point given the very real fear of these vaccines is to conduct a large randomized controlled trial in a first world country where these disease are mostly gone. Then the true results and health effects of vaccinated versus vaccinated children could be examined. The raw data should be released to the pubic not just the analysis. Then we could all know and not guess at the harm done. Trust in the scientific community would be somewhat restored. The probable result of this would be somewhere in between the two extremes. Vaccines are probably not nearly as harmful as the anti-vaccine advocates fear but they are probably far more harmful then is commonly believed.

For my own part I have vaccinated my children against the horrible diseases with a high mortality rate. They have been vaccinated against MMR for example. However, I refuse the childhood vaccinations for the less deadly diseases such as the flu as well as those that diseases that can be avoided by behavioral modifications like HPV.  

When I vaccinate my children, however, I rage internally that I live in a society so dishonest that it is not even willing to seriously address either the topic of vaccine danger or even worse undertake seriously the task of exterminating these diseases. Its been 40 years now since we have eliminated one of these deadly disease despite having the technology to do so for generations. That fact more then any other in the entire discussion is symbolic of the rot in our world.

https://www.thelancet.com/cms/attachment/2001035056/2003941975/gr1.jpg

Of course, when you read through and watch the videos at sites like CD Autism, then you find out why all kinds of people are losing faith in the medical. Vaccines don't always wait for a lot of years before they show their dangerous parts.

There is tons of information on the Internet on how to protect your kids without vaccinating them. Natural News, alone, has thousands of articles on nutritional protections.

[BADecker]

Like, how much more info do you need to see that vaccines have been one of the scourges of the world for decades, now.


Healthy Triplets All Autistic within Hours of Vaccination

Video.

[CoinCube]

Like, how much more info do you need to see that vaccines have been one of the scourges of the world for decades, now.


Healthy Triplets All Autistic within Hours of Vaccination

Video.

Very sad story. No reason to doubt it's not true either especially if the vaccine lot was pulled off the market for a fatality. Something probably went badly wrong with that lot of vaccine. How often does that happen? I don't know but probably more often then we think.

Here are some other data points to consider.

Post Measles Encephalitis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODkx89hUZQw

Measles outbreak in Guinea threatens children
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcHTUg-FY7A

The fatality rate of Measles is only 0.2% in healthy well fed people with access to good medical care. In malnourished children without access to supportive care it is much higher.

The question before us is not are vaccines harmful? Yes they in themselves most definitively are.  
The question is are they worth it?

For an individual the short term answer depends on his risk of contracting Measles but if everyone uses that logic the disease will never die simply wax and wane in intensity over time.

Similarly for the individual who falsely believes vaccines are harmless the disease will also never die for they will have no motivation undertake the necessary efforts to truly kill the disease. It will fester on in the periphery of society.

Both approaches fail. That is why we need to return to truth. Truth in the short run leads to the resurgence of disease as people will become fully aware of risks, however, in the long run it will set the stage for the extinction of these disease as the proper effort will be directed both towards identifying and minimizing vaccine risk and towards disease elimination.

It is one thing to ask a man to risk his health and the health of his children to forever kill a horrific disease and free all future humanity from it's tyranny. It is something else entirely to try an achieve that goal by hiding the risks from him, forcing his family to comply, and denying you caused the problem when he is one of the unfortunate one's who suffer terribly as a result. The latter approach is all the more wrong in that it fails in it's actual goal. We have not eliminated any diseases from the planet in the last 40 years. Our failure is nothing short of monumental.

[HB Wallet]

There have been devastating cases in my country where the parents do not give their children proper vaccination and they get caught in diseases that are not easy to cure for children that are too small. Those children, if survive the diseases, are left with consequences that heavily affect their future lives. Vaccine sure holds certain degree of danger like in all of the shared reports above, but it should definitely be brought into consideration especially for very small children. If it doesn't keep us 100% safe at least it could do like 50-99%, which is still better than nothing.