Off-Topic

[BlIiTtZz]

I'm legitimately curious - would you have the sume opinion if, for example, you pre-ordered (and paid in full up front) say a PS4 from gamestop and they said no refunds, and then Sony didn't deliver PS4s to their customers, didn't tell anyone what what going on for weeks on end and then came up with some shaky excuses and went silent again and nobody had any idea when or even if the PS4s would ever show up?
Would you just sit back and say yo gamestop it's cool; I know it's not your fault and you've got my money, and I have no merchandise, but I'll just wait until who knows when?
What if the unthinkable occurred and the PS4s never showed up?  What would you do then?
 

Apples and oranges, buddy. But to acquiesce to your dumb little game: If there was a known (and incredibly well publicized) hold-up with a key PS4 component, such as oh, say, a chip from a single source manufacturer, you bet I'd just stfu and be patient. After an amount of time had elapsed I'd aks Gamestop for a refund - but I'd only do this knowing that they had recourse with Sony - a big brand bound to respect relationships with its distributors - and in turn that Sony had recourse with its suppliers, being a large established corporate giant.

To pretend that Terrahash is Sony, or any part of their supply chain, is laughably disingenuous. Guess now I can see how you got yourself in this situation. My sympathy for you is drip drip drippin' away.

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[Silvas]

I'm legitimately curious - would you have the sume opinion if, for example, you pre-ordered (and paid in full up front) say a PS4 from gamestop and they said no refunds, and then Sony didn't deliver PS4s to their customers, didn't tell anyone what what going on for weeks on end and then came up with some shaky excuses and went silent again and nobody had any idea when or even if the PS4s would ever show up?
Would you just sit back and say yo gamestop it's cool; I know it's not your fault and you've got my money, and I have no merchandise, but I'll just wait until who knows when?
What if the unthinkable occurred and the PS4s never showed up?  What would you do then?
 

Apples and oranges, buddy. But to acquiesce to your dumb little game: If there was a known (and incredibly well publicized) hold-up with a key PS4 component, such as oh, say, a chip from a single source manufacturer, you bet I'd just stfu and be patient. After an amount of time had elapsed I'd aks Gamestop for a refund - but I'd only do this knowing that they had recourse with Sony - a big brand bound to respect relationships with its distributors - and in turn that Sony had recourse with its suppliers, being a large established corporate giant.

To pretend that Terrahash is Sony, or any part of their supply chain, is laughably disingenuous. Guess now I can see how you got yourself in this situation. My sympathy for you is drip drip drippin' away.

Explain how it is in any way shape or form different other than in scope of the company size.
It's not.
Terrahash is a business.  They are selling a product to a customer, and they are pinning that on bitsyncom delivering to them.
In my example
Gamestop is a business.  They are selling a product to a customer, and they are pinning that on Sony delivering to them.

The ONLY difference is the size of the businesses involed, which does not make it apples and oranges.  It is the same situation being played out across both.

And try some reading comprehension.  The example I put up clearly TH would be equated to gamestop, not to sony or sony's supply chain.  Bitsyncom would be the one being equated to sony.  but again, the only difference is scope.

[Silvas]

I'm legitimately curious - would you have the sume opinion if, for example, you pre-ordered (and paid in full up front) say a PS4 from gamestop and they said no refunds, and then Sony didn't deliver PS4s to their customers, didn't tell anyone what what going on for weeks on end and then came up with some shaky excuses and went silent again and nobody had any idea when or even if the PS4s would ever show up?
Would you just sit back and say yo gamestop it's cool; I know it's not your fault and you've got my money, and I have no merchandise, but I'll just wait until who knows when?
What if the unthinkable occurred and the PS4s never showed up?  What would you do then?
 

Apples and oranges, buddy. But to acquiesce to your dumb little game: If there was a known (and incredibly well publicized) hold-up with a key PS4 component, such as oh, say, a chip from a single source manufacturer, you bet I'd just stfu and be patient. After an amount of time had elapsed I'd aks Gamestop for a refund - but I'd only do this knowing that they had recourse with Sony - a big brand bound to respect relationships with its distributors - and in turn that Sony had recourse with its suppliers, being a large established corporate giant.

To pretend that Terrahash is Sony, or any part of their supply chain, is laughably disingenuous. Guess now I can see how you got yourself in this situation. My sympathy for you is drip drip drippin' away.

Oh and by the way - after an amount of time you'd ask gamestop for a refund but only because you know they have recourse with sony.  Guess what?  TH has recourse with Bitsyncom.  WE DON'T.
So are you saying that if Sony wasn't a huge corporate giant, you wouldn't ask for a refund?  You'd seriously be ok with losing your money and not getting your merchandise, just because well gamestop doesn't really have any recourse against their supplier so I guess I'm just boned?

As for your sympathy, I neither asked for it nor desire it nor does it mean anything to me.  I don't need anyone's sympathy - I won't get my merchandise, but I will get my money back.  From there, it doesn't matter.

[mrthundercleese]

They wont answer this because they are delusional, have no other recourse but to wait or they are simply to proud to admit they backed a lame horse.

I tend to equate it more with the typical issue of such and such doesn't bother me so it shouldn't bother anybody else.
I've never said anybody else should get refunds or be pissed at TH or be mad or anything.  I've not once said that anyone should share my opinion; only recognize that those of us who choose to use the relevant laws and regulations for their intended purpose aren't doing anything wrong.
It's a little off-putting to have the other side keep insisting that those of us who recognize and acknowledge that the situation isn't TH' fault but that doesn't change the fact that we aren't willing to sit back and lose our money are doing something wrong, or are assholes, or whatever.

It's also a bit mind boggling the apparent attitude people have that 'we took the risk' and don't seem to think that any risk should be borne by TH- yes we took a risk.  We took a risk that merchandise would be delivered late or not at all, but that risk was tempered (for those of us in the US) by consumer protection laws that say we are entitled to 100% of our money back if we don't get our merchandise.  TH is looking to profit as a business; that means taking the risk that your supplier doesn't deliver, your project fails, whatever and you have to return everyone's money.

Why do they seem to think that TH should get a pass and be able to make a profit while bearing no risk, putting 100% of the risk on the customers?  I honestly can't wrap my head around it.
The only thing I can come up with is it's like the whole Apple/Android thing - some people are rabid about defending their chosen camp

TH did take a risk. They allowed us to buy with PayPal. They haven't broken their promise of deliveries 2 weeks from the date the Avalon chips arrive. August 15 has come and gone but of no fault of TH. The bad guys here you all that are pulling out.

Rule #1 of bitcoin, don't in money you aren't willing to lose .

[BlIiTtZz]

Silvas, you're comparing a massive player in a huge global industry with an established supply chain to TH. That's batshit.

I'll ask for a refund, WHEN Terrahash can't apply within the agreed deadline; i.e. 2 weeks after the chips ship. I'd give Sony or Gamestop the same faith.

[Axion_Zen]

Terrahash you should check out this thread, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=273887.0 ,  avalon chip order may 5th, for HALF price . altho could be scam :0

[Silvas]

Silvas, you're comparing a massive player in a huge global industry with an established supply chain to TH. That's batshit.

I'll ask for a refund, WHEN Terrahash can't apply within the agreed deadline; i.e. 2 weeks after the chips ship. I'd give Sony or Gamestop the same faith.

So, to reiterate something I've said before - how long do you wait?  You say 2 weeks after the chips arrive, but that's meaningless.  What if the chips never arrive?
Are you going to just wait forever, and if they never show up, continue to defend it by saying well he still hasn't missed his deadline?  If not, how long is long enough?

I already firmly believe the chips will never show up.  Yifu's explanations don't add up.  There's too many indications that something is going on that Bitsyncom doesn't want anyone knowing, and it's not good.
You're entitled to sit and wait if you like, and I'm not going to say otherwise, nor will I tell you you're wrong to do so.  It's your money it's your choice.
I'm not willing to become a passthrough victim to Bitsyncom's scam, that's the bottom line.

But just to satisfy those who are nitpicking on my comparison due to size, fine.
Let's say you go to the small time local electronics shop down the road.  They're advertising a super high power LED flashlight you think is cool, and taking pre-orders for it.
You preorder one and pay in full up front.  They say it'll be delivered 2 weeks after they get the LEDs from some other company that already has a less than stellar reputation and some concern about whether they're entirely on the up and up, or maybe just enough to keep people coming back for a bit longer
Are you seriously telling me that if something went sideways and they didn't get their parts; they couldn't tell you when they'd get the parts other than they were 'pretty confident they'll start shipping the parts to us soon'; that you'd just be content to sit and wait?  That you'd be content to lose your money if those LEDs never came in?

If that's really what you're saying, you are the wet dream of scammers and dishonest cheating corporations everywhere. (not saying that all businesses and corporations are dishonest and cheating, just the ones that are)

[bluefin]

They wont answer this because they are delusional, have no other recourse but to wait or they are simply to proud to admit they backed a lame horse.

I tend to equate it more with the typical issue of such and such doesn't bother me so it shouldn't bother anybody else.
I've never said anybody else should get refunds or be pissed at TH or be mad or anything.  I've not once said that anyone should share my opinion; only recognize that those of us who choose to use the relevant laws and regulations for their intended purpose aren't doing anything wrong.
It's a little off-putting to have the other side keep insisting that those of us who recognize and acknowledge that the situation isn't TH' fault but that doesn't change the fact that we aren't willing to sit back and lose our money are doing something wrong, or are assholes, or whatever.

It's also a bit mind boggling the apparent attitude people have that 'we took the risk' and don't seem to think that any risk should be borne by TH- yes we took a risk.  We took a risk that merchandise would be delivered late or not at all, but that risk was tempered (for those of us in the US) by consumer protection laws that say we are entitled to 100% of our money back if we don't get our merchandise.  TH is looking to profit as a business; that means taking the risk that your supplier doesn't deliver, your project fails, whatever and you have to return everyone's money.

Why do they seem to think that TH should get a pass and be able to make a profit while bearing no risk, putting 100% of the risk on the customers?  I honestly can't wrap my head around it.
The only thing I can come up with is it's like the whole Apple/Android thing - some people are rabid about defending their chosen camp

TH did take a risk. They allowed us to buy with PayPal. They haven't broken their promise of deliveries 2 weeks from the date the Avalon chips arrive. August 15 has come and gone but of no fault of TH. The bad guys here you all that are pulling out.

Rule #1 of bitcoin, don't in money you aren't willing to lose .

TerraHash took almost no risk, they gambled with the communities money, not their own. How much have they actually risked of their own funds? Did they take a small business loan? Just to clarify, there is a huge difference between investors and customers.

[bluefin]

Again, since it never happened, how can you be sure that we could not have done it, much less prove it? As I have repeatedly said, we were and are 100% ready to go into assembly as soon as the chips arrived. We have been fully ready for more than 2 weeks now. All the parts not ordered were the parts that can be delivered in a day or two from multiple sources. How hard is to understand this basic concept?

Amir,
So if you have been ready 100% for more than 2 weeks as of the above writing, what have you been doing? Do you just sit in the office tinkering with the board? Do you have a second job? Have you been replying to emails or Support Tickets? Do you feel that people that have entrusted you with their funds (100's of thousands of dollars) deserve to ask questions about their orders? How much money have you personally invested into this venture?

[Flying Hellfish]

TerraHash took almost no risk, they gambled with the communities money, not their own. How much have they actually risked of their own funds? Did they take a small business loan? Just to clarify, there is a huge difference between investors and customers.

Almost all of the current ASIC manufactures have absolutely no clue what the legal difference between a customer and an investor is, what they have done is tried to create a new category called investomers.  If things end up going south for one of them they will quickly learn the law has no definition for an investomer.

[newguy05]

havent really been following this thread after paypal got my money back.  from the last few pages it looks like TH hasnt delivered anything yet, is that correct?

[-Redacted-]

It would be correct to say that Avalon has not delivered chips to Terrahash yet.  Why are you here?

[bluefin]

havent really been following this thread after paypal got my money back.  from the last few pages it looks like TH hasnt delivered anything yet, is that correct?

No, they have not delivered anything at all and from the looks of it probably wont deliver anything for at least another 30-45 days minimum (very late September, Early October), which will then put these miners firmly into  negative ROI territory.

Bottom line, if you have an order cancel it, if you haven't ordered, don't.

[newguy05]

It would be correct to say that Avalon has not delivered chips to Terrahash yet.  Why are you here?

just checking to see if i made the right decision, hope you guys get your hardware while still profitable. It's a race against time with avalon as your driver.

bluefin - thank you.

[bluefin]

It would be correct to say that Avalon has not delivered chips to Terrahash yet.  Why are you here?

just checking to see if i made the right decision, hope you guys get your hardware while still profitable. It's a race against time with avalon as your driver.

bluefin - thank you.

Your welcome, I think you made the right decision, TH clearly lacks in the business sense dept. and more than likely this venture for Amir and Justin will likely end in bankruptcy after they are forced to refund everybody's pre-orders when the ftc and other agencies come calling. The arrogance, poor judgement and lack of basic communication skills will be their undoing.

[mrthundercleese]

They wont answer this because they are delusional, have no other recourse but to wait or they are simply to proud to admit they backed a lame horse.

I tend to equate it more with the typical issue of such and such doesn't bother me so it shouldn't bother anybody else.
I've never said anybody else should get refunds or be pissed at TH or be mad or anything.  I've not once said that anyone should share my opinion; only recognize that those of us who choose to use the relevant laws and regulations for their intended purpose aren't doing anything wrong.
It's a little off-putting to have the other side keep insisting that those of us who recognize and acknowledge that the situation isn't TH' fault but that doesn't change the fact that we aren't willing to sit back and lose our money are doing something wrong, or are assholes, or whatever.

It's also a bit mind boggling the apparent attitude people have that 'we took the risk' and don't seem to think that any risk should be borne by TH- yes we took a risk.  We took a risk that merchandise would be delivered late or not at all, but that risk was tempered (for those of us in the US) by consumer protection laws that say we are entitled to 100% of our money back if we don't get our merchandise.  TH is looking to profit as a business; that means taking the risk that your supplier doesn't deliver, your project fails, whatever and you have to return everyone's money.

Why do they seem to think that TH should get a pass and be able to make a profit while bearing no risk, putting 100% of the risk on the customers?  I honestly can't wrap my head around it.
The only thing I can come up with is it's like the whole Apple/Android thing - some people are rabid about defending their chosen camp

TH did take a risk. They allowed us to buy with PayPal. They haven't broken their promise of deliveries 2 weeks from the date the Avalon chips arrive. August 15 has come and gone but of no fault of TH. The bad guys here you all that are pulling out.

Rule #1 of bitcoin, don't in money you aren't willing to lose .

TerraHash took almost no risk, they gambled with the communities money, not their own. How much have they actually risked of their own funds? Did they take a small business loan? Just to clarify, there is a huge difference between investors and customers.

The original assertion was that TH put 100% of the risk on the customer which is not true. How much risk they took isn't relevant. We all knew there was a possibility that this could happen.

[Vigil]

They wont answer this because they are delusional, have no other recourse but to wait or they are simply to proud to admit they backed a lame horse.

I tend to equate it more with the typical issue of such and such doesn't bother me so it shouldn't bother anybody else.
I've never said anybody else should get refunds or be pissed at TH or be mad or anything.  I've not once said that anyone should share my opinion; only recognize that those of us who choose to use the relevant laws and regulations for their intended purpose aren't doing anything wrong.
It's a little off-putting to have the other side keep insisting that those of us who recognize and acknowledge that the situation isn't TH' fault but that doesn't change the fact that we aren't willing to sit back and lose our money are doing something wrong, or are assholes, or whatever.

It's also a bit mind boggling the apparent attitude people have that 'we took the risk' and don't seem to think that any risk should be borne by TH- yes we took a risk.  We took a risk that merchandise would be delivered late or not at all, but that risk was tempered (for those of us in the US) by consumer protection laws that say we are entitled to 100% of our money back if we don't get our merchandise.  TH is looking to profit as a business; that means taking the risk that your supplier doesn't deliver, your project fails, whatever and you have to return everyone's money.

Why do they seem to think that TH should get a pass and be able to make a profit while bearing no risk, putting 100% of the risk on the customers?  I honestly can't wrap my head around it.
The only thing I can come up with is it's like the whole Apple/Android thing - some people are rabid about defending their chosen camp

TH did take a risk. They allowed us to buy with PayPal. They haven't broken their promise of deliveries 2 weeks from the date the Avalon chips arrive. August 15 has come and gone but of no fault of TH. The bad guys here you all that are pulling out.

Rule #1 of bitcoin, don't in money you aren't willing to lose .

TerraHash took almost no risk, they gambled with the communities money, not their own. How much have they actually risked of their own funds? Did they take a small business loan? Just to clarify, there is a huge difference between investors and customers.

The original assertion was that TH put 100% of the risk on the customer which is not true. How much risk they took isn't relevant. We all knew there was a possibility that this could happen.

TH is still required to deliver a product and if we don't feel that product is arriving when we expected then we should be refunded. some of you are suggesting that we should be biting the bullet. That isn't how it works.

[bluefin]

They wont answer this because they are delusional, have no other recourse but to wait or they are simply to proud to admit they backed a lame horse.

I tend to equate it more with the typical issue of such and such doesn't bother me so it shouldn't bother anybody else.
I've never said anybody else should get refunds or be pissed at TH or be mad or anything.  I've not once said that anyone should share my opinion; only recognize that those of us who choose to use the relevant laws and regulations for their intended purpose aren't doing anything wrong.
It's a little off-putting to have the other side keep insisting that those of us who recognize and acknowledge that the situation isn't TH' fault but that doesn't change the fact that we aren't willing to sit back and lose our money are doing something wrong, or are assholes, or whatever.

It's also a bit mind boggling the apparent attitude people have that 'we took the risk' and don't seem to think that any risk should be borne by TH- yes we took a risk.  We took a risk that merchandise would be delivered late or not at all, but that risk was tempered (for those of us in the US) by consumer protection laws that say we are entitled to 100% of our money back if we don't get our merchandise.  TH is looking to profit as a business; that means taking the risk that your supplier doesn't deliver, your project fails, whatever and you have to return everyone's money.

Why do they seem to think that TH should get a pass and be able to make a profit while bearing no risk, putting 100% of the risk on the customers?  I honestly can't wrap my head around it.
The only thing I can come up with is it's like the whole Apple/Android thing - some people are rabid about defending their chosen camp

TH did take a risk. They allowed us to buy with PayPal. They haven't broken their promise of deliveries 2 weeks from the date the Avalon chips arrive. August 15 has come and gone but of no fault of TH. The bad guys here you all that are pulling out.

Rule #1 of bitcoin, don't in money you aren't willing to lose .

TerraHash took almost no risk, they gambled with the communities money, not their own. How much have they actually risked of their own funds? Did they take a small business loan? Just to clarify, there is a huge difference between investors and customers.

The original assertion was that TH put 100% of the risk on the customer which is not true. How much risk they took isn't relevant. We all knew there was a possibility that this could happen.

Without a doubt the amount of risk that they took v.s. the community is very relevant and strikes at the heart of the debate, Amir and Justin saw an opportunity to make money with very little risk, They have raised (probably) 100's of thousands of dollars in USD and BTC and have literally done almost nothing for it.

They only thing they have showed anybody is a few boxes of "stuff", a picture of one case, a prototype board that has a ton of Hardware errors and empty and now broken promises.

Somebody a few pages back was practically begging TerraHash for more information with a $15,000 order and Amir nor Justin have done anything to appease even the largest of order holders.

http://www.coindesk.com/terrahash-opens-asic-mining-preorders-loses-business/

Khan said that the loss of the Cloudhashing order was “not a big deal,” arguing that it had little effect on the manufacturer.

The level of Arrogance is astounding, they don't care about you, this company if you can call it that is borderline criminal.

[bluefin]

They wont answer this because they are delusional, have no other recourse but to wait or they are simply to proud to admit they backed a lame horse.

I tend to equate it more with the typical issue of such and such doesn't bother me so it shouldn't bother anybody else.
I've never said anybody else should get refunds or be pissed at TH or be mad or anything.  I've not once said that anyone should share my opinion; only recognize that those of us who choose to use the relevant laws and regulations for their intended purpose aren't doing anything wrong.
It's a little off-putting to have the other side keep insisting that those of us who recognize and acknowledge that the situation isn't TH' fault but that doesn't change the fact that we aren't willing to sit back and lose our money are doing something wrong, or are assholes, or whatever.

It's also a bit mind boggling the apparent attitude people have that 'we took the risk' and don't seem to think that any risk should be borne by TH- yes we took a risk.  We took a risk that merchandise would be delivered late or not at all, but that risk was tempered (for those of us in the US) by consumer protection laws that say we are entitled to 100% of our money back if we don't get our merchandise.  TH is looking to profit as a business; that means taking the risk that your supplier doesn't deliver, your project fails, whatever and you have to return everyone's money.

Why do they seem to think that TH should get a pass and be able to make a profit while bearing no risk, putting 100% of the risk on the customers?  I honestly can't wrap my head around it.
The only thing I can come up with is it's like the whole Apple/Android thing - some people are rabid about defending their chosen camp

TH did take a risk. They allowed us to buy with PayPal. They haven't broken their promise of deliveries 2 weeks from the date the Avalon chips arrive. August 15 has come and gone but of no fault of TH. The bad guys here you all that are pulling out.

Rule #1 of bitcoin, don't in money you aren't willing to lose .

TerraHash took almost no risk, they gambled with the communities money, not their own. How much have they actually risked of their own funds? Did they take a small business loan? Just to clarify, there is a huge difference between investors and customers.

The original assertion was that TH put 100% of the risk on the customer which is not true. How much risk they took isn't relevant. We all knew there was a possibility that this could happen.

Without a doubt the amount of risk that they took v.s. the community is very relevant and strikes at the heart of the debate, Amir and Justin saw an opportunity to make money with very little risk, They have raised (probably) 100's of thousands of dollars in USD and BTC and have literally done almost nothing for it.

They only thing they have showed anybody is a few boxes of "stuff", a picture of one case, a prototype board that has a ton of Hardware errors and empty and now broken promises.

Somebody a few pages back was practically begging TerraHash for more information with a $15,000 order and Amir nor Justin have done anything to appease even the largest of order holders.

http://www.coindesk.com/terrahash-opens-asic-mining-preorders-loses-business/

Khan said that the loss of the Cloudhashing order was “not a big deal,” arguing that it had little effect on the manufacturer.

The level of Arrogance is astounding, they don't care about you, this company if you can call it that is borderline criminal.

Sadly it's people like you that deserve to lose money. You twist words for your own benefit, fail to use logic in any scenario, and are like a broken record.

Grow the fuck up kid,

Get back to the reality of the situation, Terrahash has been total shit on their support tickets but as far as the product is concerned have not dropped the ball at all.

If you put money down in a casino and then think you might lose when you are dealt your hand, you don't grab your money and walk away. Grow some balls.

Their are a few people here that understand this and while they might not say it as blunt as me you can be damn sure they agree.

I deserve to lose money because why?
Which words have I twisted?
What product are you talking about? The one that as of yet does not exist, but when it does will most certainly lose "customers" money?
Amir and Justin have dropped the ball in every single way possible, not sure where your delusional mind makes it so that they have done outstanding things, or even ordinary things or anything at all for that matter!
Most people are disagreeing with you, you seem to be implying that there is this vast silent magority that are behind you. Well lets see them?

[bluefin]

You somehow think that Terrahash can give you a product right now but are refusing to do so. Again your mind is in fantasy land.

This is not true, no-where have I said that I think that TerraHash can give me a product but are refusing to do so, I don't think anybody has said that at all.

What you are failing to grasp is the shear arrogance, disdain and hatred that Amir and Justin have shown to their own customers.

• Refusing to answer most or all questions about their business.
• Refusing to honor refunds when requested.
• Lying about chip orders.
• Pulling a switcheroo 2 days prior to opening sales regarding refund verbiage and neglecting to tell anybody.
• Horrible communication skills
• Horrible decision making skills
• lying about what parts they have and when they had/purchased them.
• Near criminal behavior regarding refunds