[BTC-TC] Deprived Mining Speculation (DMS)

[stripykitteh]

PSA:

https://forum.litecoin.net/index.php/topic,4582.msg58859.html#msg58859

TL; DR: New exchange for CIPHERMINE.B1 is planned to go live on Jan 2, 2014.

[Deprived]

And yes - I'm only referring to MINING dividends: at present no SELLING dividends can be paid.

Will they be paid (back) once it's possible to do so?
I'm holding >1000 shares of DMS.SELLING, is there anything i should/can do besides just.. waiting?

You could offer to buy CIPHERMINE.B1 bonds at face value from DMS.
Those things are what's holding back SELLING dividends from being payable. The total NAV of the fund is sufficient, but since the shutdown of BTCT it hasn't been possible to rebalance the funds portfolio and now these illiquid assets make up the majority of the NAV.

At the risk of being really annoying... I told you so!
I was totally against investing the fund's assets because of the unnecessary risk, but everyone else let their greed rule them. We took a big loss from Just Dice and now the funds are stuck in limbo. We narrowly missed losing big time with CoinLenders. ... and all for the sake of a few more percent of return.

In fairness you also need to consider the other side of the coin.

DMS made steady and safe profits from the LTC-ATF.B2 - including selling a significant number of them on the market at a good markup to the face value I sold them to DMS for.  And DMS made a fast 20 BTC profit from the 24 hour (and 100% secured) loan I took. 

The Just-Dice loss was unfortunate - had I not divested when I did we'd now be well into profit on it (but I had to divest given the situation) and the loss that occurred there had a very small likelihood of happening.

Coinlenders we got out of with a decent profit made - as soon as he removed the personal guarantees and started trying to get hold of much cash as he could with inputs.io it was obvious that it was not a good idea to have cash with him and I got us out.

Ciphermine.B1 was a good move that turned into a bad one due to BTC-TC closing - until then we'd been collecting dividends and slowly selling them off at a small markup to what we paid.

All of that said, I do agree with your conclusion.  If I was starting DMS afresh now I think I'd not invest at all other than where there was guaranteed 100% backing and significant liquidity - which, in practice, would mean only in bonds/loans to myself (as no amount of accounts/records from someone else can ever provide me with certainty that backing exists and liquidity will be provided).  Fundamentally investment wasn't a good idea with DMS as those who don't want a specific investment can end up having to take on the risk of it (due to being outvoted) when all they actually want is the risks associated with their own judgement of the relative values of SELLING/MINING.

[Deprived]

PSA:

https://forum.litecoin.net/index.php/topic,4582.msg58859.html#msg58859

TL; DR: New exchange for CIPHERMINE.B1 is planned to go live on Jan 2, 2014.

That's when it'll go fully live (and anyone will be able to submit new securities for listing etc).

CIPHERMINE.B1 (and DMS if we list there - which looks very likely) would be live and traded significantly before that date.  As soon as an actual date is finally agreed I'll post it here.

I have also now confirmed that all of the key functionality we need will be present from the start (in fact that had been clarified for some period in documentation - but due to a misunderstanding I didn't have access to that but it was thought that I did.)

[LiteBit]

Very good! Looking forward to trading stocks and netting dividends again.
Will you post any changes you propose (if any) to original prospectus on BTCT.co to the DMS securities as well?
Such as paying MINING dividends daily again.

[Deprived]

Very good! Looking forward to trading stocks and netting dividends again.
Will you post any changes you propose (if any) to original prospectus on BTCT.co to the DMS securities as well?
Such as paying MINING dividends daily again.

I'm not anticipating there being any significant changes to the contract - operational things like precisely how redemptions are handled don't require changes to the contract.

MINING dividends would be paid daily as before regardless of where we relist (once the backlog had been cleared and any teething problems with relisting had been resolved).  i.e. I'd likely wait a day or two after relisting to make sure there were no problems with people having wrong number of shares or similar before paying outstanding dividends (though if we relist on the exchange currently planned then I could verify the list myself as I'd have access to a list similar to what I had on BTC-TC, so could check it myself).

Until/unless automated transfers could be implemented I'd likely impose some restrictions on trades of PURCHASE for MINING/SELLING (but anyone already holding PURCHASE would of course be allowed to swap) but everything else would be as before - though with redemption policy reflecting the reality that NAV/U is X BTC + Y CIPHERMINE.B1 until that changes.

[NineLives]

Hi Deprived,

I emailed you asking for an update?  No replay.

I'll send another email.  Please confirm what email to use?

I'm a bit behind on what going on and will try to read back as much as I can.

Thanks

PS.  This is the email I used:  deprivedltcasset@hotmail.co.uk

[DaSheep]

Ok thanks for the replies but I still have the same question.
What's about (backlogged) SELLING dividends?

I bought SELLING as a kind of hedge against mining difficulty, so I'm only interested in the dividends and not the price of the shares.
So now difficulty exploded but the last dividends I recieved was on 2013-10-27 and since then the difficulty didn't slow down.

So my question is quite simple:
Will you pay me the "missing" dividends since 2013-10-27 once you're able to calculate them?

[Rannasha]

So my question is quite simple:
Will you pay me the "missing" dividends since 2013-10-27 once you're able to calculate them?

Read back. SELLING dividends can't be paid until the CIPHERMINE bonds, or at least part of them, can be sold for liquid BTC. Once enough liquid BTC is available, SELLING will gets its dividend payment.

[DaSheep]

So my question is quite simple:
Will you pay me the "missing" dividends since 2013-10-27 once you're able to calculate them?

Read back. SELLING dividends can't be paid until the CIPHERMINE bonds, or at least part of them, can be sold for liquid BTC. Once enough liquid BTC is available, SELLING will gets its dividend payment.

I did (some). The question is if the dividends that should have been paid will be paid (back) or if he'll just start paying (new) dividends from that point in time. I fear that he'll just start paying new dividends once the difficulty increase is slowing down and I'll miss all the profit of the insane difficulty jump which I was speculating on..

[Rannasha]

So my question is quite simple:
Will you pay me the "missing" dividends since 2013-10-27 once you're able to calculate them?

Read back. SELLING dividends can't be paid until the CIPHERMINE bonds, or at least part of them, can be sold for liquid BTC. Once enough liquid BTC is available, SELLING will gets its dividend payment.

I did (some). The question is if the dividends that should have been paid will be paid (back) or if he'll just start paying (new) dividends from that point in time. I fear that he'll just start paying new dividends once the difficulty increase is slowing down and I'll miss all the profit of the insane difficulty jump which I was speculating on..

SELLING pays out a dividend whenever the NAV/U of the fund goes over 410 times the current daily MINING dividend. Since no SELLING dividends have been paid for a while and the difficulty has gone up considerably, the NAV/U will be way over this factor of 410. So whenever the fund has sufficient liquid BTC again, SELLING will receive a very large dividend in one go.

[BitThink]

So my question is quite simple:
Will you pay me the "missing" dividends since 2013-10-27 once you're able to calculate them?

Read back. SELLING dividends can't be paid until the CIPHERMINE bonds, or at least part of them, can be sold for liquid BTC. Once enough liquid BTC is available, SELLING will gets its dividend payment.

I did (some). The question is if the dividends that should have been paid will be paid (back) or if he'll just start paying (new) dividends from that point in time. I fear that he'll just start paying new dividends once the difficulty increase is slowing down and I'll miss all the profit of the insane difficulty jump which I was speculating on..

Selling dividend is always NAV - 410 * Mining dividend. It does not matter how many dividends were skipped.

[Deprived]

Ok thanks for the replies but I still have the same question.
What's about (backlogged) SELLING dividends?

I bought SELLING as a kind of hedge against mining difficulty, so I'm only interested in the dividends and not the price of the shares.
So now difficulty exploded but the last dividends I recieved was on 2013-10-27 and since then the difficulty didn't slow down.

So my question is quite simple:
Will you pay me the "missing" dividends since 2013-10-27 once you're able to calculate them?

If/when I can confidently value CIPHERMINE.B1 at full value then you'd receive exactly the same dividends in total on SELLING as if it had always been valued at full face value and dividends paid at every difficulty change.  The only exception to that would be if difficulty fell/didn't rise/rose by less than a few % (where you could end up receiving slightly less) - but that seems highly unlikely at present.

I'm not convinced by your statement that difficulty didn't slow down rising - as a percentage the increases seem to have fallen off somewhat.  And do remember that if there are two changes in a row of the same percentage then the SELLING dividend for the second one would be smaller.

[Deprived]

Hi Deprived,

I emailed you asking for an update?  No replay.

I'll send another email.  Please confirm what email to use?

I'm a bit behind on what going on and will try to read back as much as I can.

Thanks

PS.  This is the email I used:  deprivedltcasset@hotmail.co.uk

I'll next be replying to emails about DMS tomorrow or Thursday.  But don't expect a personalised update on what's happening - I prefer to post things once here rather than in a few hundred individual emails.

[DaSheep]

Thanks alot, that was exactly what I wanted to hear

Looking at the price and difficulty this should be quite a nice payday then 

[Vezunchik]

By the way: how I can check that my BTC address for DMS shares is ok? Is there any public list or so?
I know that on BTCT.co my address was set (double checked). Just to be sure...

[davecoin]

I would also like verification of my public address and shares held.

[stripykitteh]

By the way: how I can check that my BTC address for DMS shares is ok? Is there any public list or so?
I know that on BTCT.co my address was set (double checked). Just to be sure...

No public list that I know of. You could try sending a PM to Deprived with a signed message and asking for confirmation, though he may take some time to respond (especially if a lot of people do the same thing).

[Lohoris]

By the way: how I can check that my BTC address for DMS shares is ok? Is there any public list or so?
I know that on BTCT.co my address was set (double checked). Just to be sure...

No public list that I know of. You could try sending a PM to Deprived with a signed message and asking for confirmation, though he may take some time to respond (especially if a lot of people do the same thing).

And since it will likely be relisted within days (unless I misunderstood), doing this would be pretty pointless anyway.

[FloatesMcgoates]

By the way: how I can check that my BTC address for DMS shares is ok? Is there any public list or so?
I know that on BTCT.co my address was set (double checked). Just to be sure...

No public list that I know of. You could try sending a PM to Deprived with a signed message and asking for confirmation, though he may take some time to respond (especially if a lot of people do the same thing).

And since it will likely be relisted within days (unless I misunderstood), doing this would be pretty pointless anyway.

From what I can gather, CipherTrade (The exchange deprived had intentions of launching on) will not go live for another 31 days

[LiteBit]

I would also like verification of my public address and shares held.

User: Burnside would be the person who can verify the public address. Unless you took screenshots of your account before BTCT.CO shut down. Most shareholders took images of their account page and downloaded all .csv files before the site's closure.

Saying that, I doubt he'll give you a verification of your address. He has given all issuers the list of shareholders addresses. And as it's been said, the Ciphertrade site will be operational in 1 month... more likely at least open to explore before the opening day. So users can register and verify settings prior to trading commencing on Jan. 2nd, 2014. - pure conjecture on my part, but logical.