[DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated

[profitofthegods]

One under used revenue stream for Devcoins is the ad revenues of Devtome. This has been discussed on the forum at http://coinzen.org/index.php/topic,1033.0.html . Once a means is put in place to offer a PG and non-PG branching then the PG content could be bringing in a far greater revenue than at present. Hunterbunter has already indicated that this thought is on his mind.

If we consider the potential revenues that Devtome could offer than one would have to admit that it has been a success (not to mention the success in offering a venue for many great writers). That is said from one who has been slowly won over to the Devtome concept.

Another discussion on the forum is to take the same idea to the visual arts. That discussion can be followed at http://coinzen.org/index.php/topic,1039.0.html and a software proposal is currently underway at http://coinzen.org/index.php/topic,1063.msg34809.html#msg34809 .

If visual art could drive as much traffic as Devtome then we could see two wonderful revenue streams to support DVC sell offs.

- Nova

+1 Definitely agree, it would be great if we could get some better paying ads on Devtome and use the revenue to help support the price.

[1714303539]

1714303539

[Athanasios Motok]

How about an online service such as a VPN? Or other monthly subscription service that would attract customers, preferably crypto ones.

I like this idea but wouldn't it still cost money to set up? I think like mentioned before it is a problem that the coins are just received and then sold immediately. I think the biggest problem with devcoin is that there really is not a ton of people accepting the coins. 

[smeagol]

How about an online service such as a VPN? Or other monthly subscription service that would attract customers, preferably crypto ones.

I like this idea but wouldn't it still cost money to set up? I think like mentioned before it is a problem that the coins are just received and then sold immediately. I think the biggest problem with devcoin is that there really is not a ton of people accepting the coins. 

You'd need a lot of bandwidth and an IP address you wouldn't mind getting blocked.  (Most VPNs end up getting a range of IPs they use blocked due to spam, etc.)

[Wekkel]

I've been thinking about Devcoin and the difference between Devcoin and Bitcoin. With Bitcoin, we got people obtaining Bitcoin by buying (for various reasons) and by mining (keeping the network secure). Devcoin is different: mining is less prominent for Devcoin due to merge mining. Anyone who wants Devcoins buys them. Mining Devcoins to obtain Devcoins is a waste of time.

It seems as if the dynamics of mining play a role in increasing the user base of a crypto currency. I am not sure whether there is a relationship and if so, what the relationship is all about. Is was said that Devcoin basically is a pot of money (market cap) that is steadily converted into Bitcoins by Devcoin earners. For a certain part, the same goes for Bitcoin (miners cashing out to USD). What we seem to miss is the speculation part. No speculation, no price increase and no exponentially expanding user base.

Thinking further, what is Devcoin all about that Bitcoin cannot do. Essentially, the holder of Devcoin sponsors open source activity. That's great, but can this holder not achieve the same by holding Bitcoin and donating some Bitcoins to charity supporting open source (by donations or giving tips)? From this perspective, Devcoin is nothing more than a system of forced charity. Hardly enticing for the average user of money.

I have not thought this through enough to reach a conclusion, but it seems as if the main function of Devcoin must be emphasised more: ledger for (electronic) transactions. Yes, the same as Bitcoin, but that is the core of any crypto currency. I would love to see the commerce surrounding a software event (e.g., a conference) fully handled through Devcoin. Mobile wallets, payment machines, you name it, creating a cult around Devcoin just like Doge managed to do on the basis of a simple theme. It should become cool to pay and be paid in Devcoin, because it supports something good.

Some of us are already leading this way by building a mobile client and Windows client. It's getting there, but is it enough?

[sidhujag]

I've been thinking about Devcoin and the difference between Devcoin and Bitcoin. With Bitcoin, we got people obtaining Bitcoin by buying (for various reasons) and by mining (keeping the network secure). Devcoin is different: mining is less prominent for Devcoin due to merge mining. Anyone who wants Devcoins buys them. Mining Devcoins to obtain Devcoins is a waste of time.

It seems as if the dynamics of mining play a role in increasing the user base of a crypto currency. I am not sure whether there is a relationship and if so, what the relationship is all about. Is was said that Devcoin basically is a pot of money (market cap) that is steadily converted into Bitcoins by Devcoin earners. For a certain part, the same goes for Bitcoin (miners cashing out to USD). What we seem to miss is the speculation part. No speculation, no price increase and no exponentially expanding user base.

Thinking further, what is Devcoin all about that Bitcoin cannot do. Essentially, the holder of Devcoin sponsors open source activity. That's great, but can this holder not achieve the same by holding Bitcoin and donating some Bitcoins to charity supporting open source (by donations or giving tips)? From this perspective, Devcoin is nothing more than a system of forced charity. Hardly enticing for the average user of money.

I have not thought this through enough to reach a conclusion, but it seems as if the main function of Devcoin must be emphasised more: ledger for (electronic) transactions. Yes, the same as Bitcoin, but that is the core of any crypto currency. I would love to see the commerce surrounding a software event (e.g., a conference) fully handled through Devcoin. Mobile wallets, payment machines, you name it, creating a cult around Devcoin just like Doge managed to do on the basis of a simple theme. It should become cool to pay and be paid in Devcoin, because it supports something good.

Some of us are already leading this way by building a mobile client and Windows client. It's getting there, but is it enough?

This is what I have been already eluding to, we miss the speculation part and the earning/speculation needs to have a common motivation to succeed.. and I defined succeeding by increasing the reciever file size (more earners, the better the project)... and the higher the price.

See the vote: http://coinzen.org/index.php/topic,1032.0.html

[Hunterbunter]

I've been thinking about Devcoin and the difference between Devcoin and Bitcoin. With Bitcoin, we got people obtaining Bitcoin by buying (for various reasons) and by mining (keeping the network secure). Devcoin is different: mining is less prominent for Devcoin due to merge mining. Anyone who wants Devcoins buys them. Mining Devcoins to obtain Devcoins is a waste of time.

It seems as if the dynamics of mining play a role in increasing the user base of a crypto currency. I am not sure whether there is a relationship and if so, what the relationship is all about. Is was said that Devcoin basically is a pot of money (market cap) that is steadily converted into Bitcoins by Devcoin earners. For a certain part, the same goes for Bitcoin (miners cashing out to USD). What we seem to miss is the speculation part. No speculation, no price increase and no exponentially expanding user base.

Thinking further, what is Devcoin all about that Bitcoin cannot do. Essentially, the holder of Devcoin sponsors open source activity. That's great, but can this holder not achieve the same by holding Bitcoin and donating some Bitcoins to charity supporting open source (by donations or giving tips)? From this perspective, Devcoin is nothing more than a system of forced charity. Hardly enticing for the average user of money.

I have not thought this through enough to reach a conclusion, but it seems as if the main function of Devcoin must be emphasised more: ledger for (electronic) transactions. Yes, the same as Bitcoin, but that is the core of any crypto currency. I would love to see the commerce surrounding a software event (e.g., a conference) fully handled through Devcoin. Mobile wallets, payment machines, you name it, creating a cult around Devcoin just like Doge managed to do on the basis of a simple theme. It should become cool to pay and be paid in Devcoin, because it supports something good.

Some of us are already leading this way by building a mobile client and Windows client. It's getting there, but is it enough?

Wekkel this is not all directed to you specifically, but just my general thoughts on this topic as its an important one.

The receiver file metaphor

The metaphor is that human work is to devcoins, what mining is to bitcoins. Merge mining ensures network security for a 10% generation tradeoff, but 90% of the generated coins are distributed based on real human effort - open source programming, writing, and eventually also visual and aural art. People themselves are the miners. This is the revolutionary idea behind the receiver files, which are a centrally managed way of ensuring fair reward for fair work. If human effort could be judged algorithmically, without human intervention, then we wouldn't need the whole admin system that we have, or the centralization of the receiver files. This may very well change in the future but for now, it is what it is.

The receiver files are what this all runs on. People do some sanctioned work (1 share per 1k words on devtome, various open bounty share rewards that are critically awarded, etc), are allocated some shares, then at the end of the round get a line with their dvc address for every share that they've earned. This is the receiver file. The file is retrieved from its central urls (utb's github and file custodians) by the client, and uses it to allocate generation shares. The generation algorithm goes through this list, and picks a line when a block is found, giving that dvc address a generation reward (minus 10% for miners).

This is fundamentally different to the main incentives behind bitcoins (and practically all alt-coins except a few). Bitcoins are a cryptographically protected decentralized store of value, with some deflationary characteristics. Devcoins are about funding human endeavour for the good of all, with the proof of work concept built into the receiver files rather than just the transaction ledger. People largely buy bitcoins as stores of value, perhaps speculating that the price will rise too, and maybe some so they can actually transact online business, but there is a fundamental flaw in this value store vs transactability, which people will realize on and off for themselves over time.

Transactions vs store of value

I've written about this flaw with bitcoins as a trade currency, in a bitcointalk post long ago: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24867.20 and the main point still stands - that "bitcoins only value is in value storage due to scarcity". It's quite amusing watching bitcoiners get so excited that new businesses accept bitcoins, because they think it will increase adoption and increase the value...then worry when the price goes down because those that accepted them simply sold them because they work in fiat. The act of buying something for bitcoin, from a business currently living in the real world, is fungible to the act of selling the coin. They are one and the same. Businesses don't care about how they get paid; they want the absolute minimum volatility so will always convert earnings to the currency that gives them that. People care about how they pay; they want the least future valuable stuff off their hands first, then most valuable, ie give your cash before you give your car (or bitcoins). Bitcoins are always going to be a relatively poor transaction coin, because their only real value is in storing value, and so is subject to an expectation of increasing value over time as adoption increases. It doesn't really have anything to pin its value on, except maybe network security, so it's difficult for businesses to create a b2b bitcoin supply chain. Without this supply chain, coins will consistently be converted to fiat, messing with people's expectations and driving interest down.

A good transaction coin will be one that has little speculation value. Speculators increase volatility, which businesses don't like. Devcoins turn off speculators because they're not a great store of value compared to all the other coins, being one of the first fixed inflationary coins, administered by humans (potentially unpredictable, corruptable), etc. Although still non-zero, speculation has a reduced effect.

A good transaction coin is cheap to use and secure, with some incentive not to hoard them. Inflation is good for this. Cashflow is king, when it comes to business, and businesses need to find it easy to get the coins off you, because of investors, loans, and the business 2 business supply chain (if it exists). Devcoin earners are humans, that have human needs like food, clothes, shelter, sex toys, whatever. While earning devcoins, they can't simultaneously earn elsewhere at the same time, so there is a great likelihood that devcoin earners will be willing to part with their devcoins for real world goods and services to meet their needs. This can't be overstated enough. We know people will write and code for devcoins, seeing it as a form of income, and they will naturally want basic goods to sustain themselves. A stable price added to this, increases the fungibility between devcoins and cash (fungibility is like saying "I can replace a $10 with 2 $5 notes; devcoins and cash are the same thing"), so there's a good chance people will use devcoin earnings to buy staples, and converting some to btc as long term savings, whereas bitcoin earnings will probably leave their wallets at a lesser rate (which is bad for the 'economy'). Businesses should become attracted to devcoins, because devcoin earners would rather buy bread with devcoins, instead of doing a dvc->btc->usd conversion with all the slippage and fees involved. This is a totally under serviced market for basic everyday goods; something bitcoins are not as suitable for. If I had a choice to spend my devcoins on hand or my btc on hand when going grocery shopping, I would much rather spend my dvc. It has the convenience and security of btc, but also has a way I can easily earn more at a predictable rate. I even know in advance how much I'll be earning next month, so I can even budget. This is what makes for a good economic/transaction coin...incentive to spend it is built in.

A good transaction coin can be easily earned or purchased. You don't need to invest anything other than your labour to earn devcoins. No capital, no hardware, nothing but your brain for hire. At any point in time, a new devcoiner can join the community with no disadvantage to being a late adopter in a pyramid scheme, with earnings being linked to skill rather than how soon you joined. Totally different to bitcoins. With the huge number of devcoins already spread to many hands, devcoins will reach market stability faster than bitcoins will. If the price rises a lot, the share difficulty goes through the roof (more work gets done), until it's back to a stable ultra long term real-world relevant level. While it's a small thing, it is important - there is a base level of pay that writers seem to refuse to dump their coins under. US$10-13/share has been a consistent bottom for prices, even with the same 200M coins being distributed round after round. There has been dvc volume on exchanges, but the price has been stable, meaning people are holding on to them to get their target wages. Devtome writing is as strong as ever (468 shares in round 37, 67% of total), so writers and private investors have found a stable free-market equilibrium all by themselves. We can probably pin the value of a devcoin to this figure, because it's been lasting for months, and has been visited in the past too. As a free market user, I know that if I want some writing done, I can confidently offer US$10-13 per 1000 words for an average writer, and expect it to be fulfilled, and maybe double for a good writer. This is completely independant of the dvc/btc/usd prices, so we can estimate the dvc/btc price based on btc/usd price, and investors can get an idea of when they're supporting devcoins at bargain prices or inflated ones.

This is all completely different for someone buying devcoins to perform a transaction with. The only people, at the moment, that you can buy anything from are writers and some developers willing to accept them. Businesses don't really have a big reason to set up shop only accepting dvc. It doesn't really make sense to do that. When we extend our umbrella to aural and visual creative commons, we'll have more people, but that is essentially the scope of our economy. These are all pretty cool people to have on board, and there's a good chance that once we have people of these different disciplines earning shares through os/cc work, there will be businesses crop up that service them, possibly attracting more of the general public. I, for one, would think us pretty successful if we were the go-to coin for developers, writers, artists and musicians (and variations of) within the next 2-3 years. Except for maybe developers, these communities are not typically interested in cryptocurrencies, so we would be the introduction for them, which is a big deal. There *could* be a larger economy that grows out of that, but that is largely unknown.

Devcoins in particular

I personally feel I have to make a choice whenever I look at an alt-coin between investing all I have in that, or all I have in bitcoins (not really a choice), whereas devcoins are so completely different in every way to bitcoins, that it's like comparing apples to oranges. Bitcoiners doggedly seeking business transactions to get wider adoption don't seem to understand that they are the ones who will be paying for transactions through reduced coin value, because all of its value is based on a house of cards. The transaction value of a bitcoin is far, far, far lower than what it is right now, and if everyone actually used it to transact with as they intend, there will be blood in the streets.

If you're a devcoin speculator, then this will all probably sound like bad news for you. It's unfortunately impossible for an item to be both a store of value, and a good currency for an active economy. Devcoin, whether it likes it or not, is a better currency than it is a store of value, for all the reasons listed above. We could try to play it to its strengths, or we could fight an uphill battle raising the dvc/btc price for the sake of raising it. There are a ton of currencies that are better at that than this one. It took me a little time to realize that myself, but it does make sense to me now. The proposals I will release soon on where we should go next will take a lot of what I've mentioned here into account.

Focusing on the dvc/btc price as a metric of performance is completely missing the point of devcoins. There are ways to improve the conversion rate, and one is a side-effect of fixing the balance of productivity between different devcoin disciplines. I'll get to that at another time, but for now: If we go after straight dvc/btc price increases for the sake of getting more attention, we're going to lose without drastically changing the way shares are earned (especially devtome). All it will do is increase devtome output until any benefits have been eroded. Devtome needs a stern talking to and some brakes put on it, but that's part of my proposal under draft. If we focus on our actual mission - proliferating open source development and all creative commons - the entire project gains credibility and extrinsic value. This is where we will win, and get devcoin onto more lips, including the people who are actually going to put the usd/btc in to support all these people doing this open source/cc work. The best metric for our success is how many shares a round we are producing, which is directly related to our reputation for proliferating our mission. We will only be able to increase our share rate, if we can convince the greater public that by giving us money (buying devcoins), they're directly contributing to the most cost efficient open-source and creative commons proliferation project in the world. Devcoins are not a greater-fool speculative coin, but a human value concentrating coin. We're something people like Warren Buffet might consider changing his mind about crypto currencies for. He's a value investor, and devcoin needs value investors, which it can only attract by efficiently producing valuable work.

Devcoin investors, only have bright things to expect from this coin. I'm confident that I have a workable solution for the next phase of devcoin's development, to give it a more stable foundation, fairer pay for all disciplines, and better long term prospects for wider adoption. We do need to create an organizational structure that can handle all this, but it will give us more flexibility for the good of the community, and all will be open for discussion soon.

TL;DR: Devcoins are complementary to bitcoins. They make the best case for a transaction coin out of every single bitoin-family coin, because they are the least attractive to speculators, among other things.

[profitofthegods]

I've been thinking about Devcoin and the difference between Devcoin and Bitcoin. With Bitcoin, we got people obtaining Bitcoin by buying (for various reasons) and by mining (keeping the network secure). Devcoin is different: mining is less prominent for Devcoin due to merge mining. Anyone who wants Devcoins buys them. Mining Devcoins to obtain Devcoins is a waste of time.

It seems as if the dynamics of mining play a role in increasing the user base of a crypto currency. I am not sure whether there is a relationship and if so, what the relationship is all about. Is was said that Devcoin basically is a pot of money (market cap) that is steadily converted into Bitcoins by Devcoin earners. For a certain part, the same goes for Bitcoin (miners cashing out to USD). What we seem to miss is the speculation part. No speculation, no price increase and no exponentially expanding user base.

Thinking further, what is Devcoin all about that Bitcoin cannot do. Essentially, the holder of Devcoin sponsors open source activity. That's great, but can this holder not achieve the same by holding Bitcoin and donating some Bitcoins to charity supporting open source (by donations or giving tips)? From this perspective, Devcoin is nothing more than a system of forced charity. Hardly enticing for the average user of money.

I have not thought this through enough to reach a conclusion, but it seems as if the main function of Devcoin must be emphasised more: ledger for (electronic) transactions. Yes, the same as Bitcoin, but that is the core of any crypto currency. I would love to see the commerce surrounding a software event (e.g., a conference) fully handled through Devcoin. Mobile wallets, payment machines, you name it, creating a cult around Devcoin just like Doge managed to do on the basis of a simple theme. It should become cool to pay and be paid in Devcoin, because it supports something good.

Some of us are already leading this way by building a mobile client and Windows client. It's getting there, but is it enough?

Wekkel this is not all directed to you specifically, but just my general thoughts on this topic as its an important one.

The receiver file metaphor

The metaphor is that human work is to devcoins, what mining is to bitcoins. Merge mining ensures network security for a 10% generation tradeoff, but 90% of the generated coins are distributed based on real human effort - open source programming, writing, and eventually also visual and aural art. People themselves are the miners. This is the revolutionary idea behind the receiver files, which are a centrally managed way of ensuring fair reward for fair work. If human effort could be judged algorithmically, without human intervention, then we wouldn't need the whole admin system that we have, or the centralization of the receiver files. This may very well change in the future but for now, it is what it is.

The receiver files are what this all runs on. People do some sanctioned work (1 share per 1k words on devtome, various open bounty share rewards that are critically awarded, etc), are allocated some shares, then at the end of the round get a line with their dvc address for every share that they've earned. This is the receiver file. The file is retrieved from its central urls (utb's github and file custodians) by the client, and uses it to allocate generation shares. The generation algorithm goes through this list, and picks a line when a block is found, giving that dvc address a generation reward (minus 10% for miners).

This is fundamentally different to the main incentives behind bitcoins (and practically all alt-coins except a few). Bitcoins are a cryptographically protected decentralized store of value, with some deflationary characteristics. Devcoins are about funding human endeavour for the good of all, with the proof of work concept built into the receiver files rather than just the transaction ledger. People largely buy bitcoins as stores of value, perhaps speculating that the price will rise too, and maybe some so they can actually transact online business, but there is a fundamental flaw in this value store vs transactability, which people will realize on and off for themselves over time.

Transactions vs store of value

I've written about this flaw with bitcoins as a trade currency, in a bitcointalk post long ago: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24867.20 and the main point still stands - that "bitcoins only value is in value storage due to scarcity". It's quite amusing watching bitcoiners get so excited that new businesses accept bitcoins, because they think it will increase adoption and increase the value...then worry when the price goes down because those that accepted them simply sold them because they work in fiat. The act of buying something for bitcoin, from a business currently living in the real world, is fungible to the act of selling the coin. They are one and the same. Businesses don't care about how they get paid; they want the absolute minimum volatility so will always convert earnings to the currency that gives them that. People care about how they pay; they want the least future valuable stuff off their hands first, then most valuable, ie give your cash before you give your car (or bitcoins). Bitcoins are always going to be a relatively poor transaction coin, because their only real value is in storing value, and so is subject to an expectation of increasing value over time as adoption increases. It doesn't really have anything to pin its value on, except maybe network security, so it's difficult for businesses to create a b2b bitcoin supply chain. Without this supply chain, coins will consistently be converted to fiat, messing with people's expectations and driving interest down.

A good transaction coin will be one that has little speculation value. Speculators increase volatility, which businesses don't like. Devcoins turn off speculators because they're not a great store of value compared to all the other coins, being one of the first fixed inflationary coins, administered by humans (potentially unpredictable, corruptable), etc. Although still non-zero, speculation has a reduced effect.

A good transaction coin is cheap to use and secure, with some incentive not to hoard them. Inflation is good for this. Cashflow is king, when it comes to business, and businesses need to find it easy to get the coins off you, because of investors, loans, and the business 2 business supply chain (if it exists). Devcoin earners are humans, that have human needs like food, clothes, shelter, sex toys, whatever. While earning devcoins, they can't simultaneously earn elsewhere at the same time, so there is a great likelihood that devcoin earners will be willing to part with their devcoins for real world goods and services to meet their needs. This can't be overstated enough. We know people will write and code for devcoins, seeing it as a form of income, and they will naturally want basic goods to sustain themselves. A stable price added to this, increases the fungibility between devcoins and cash (fungibility is like saying "I can replace a $10 with 2 $5 notes; devcoins and cash are the same thing"), so there's a good chance people will use devcoin earnings to buy staples, and converting some to btc as long term savings, whereas bitcoin earnings will probably leave their wallets at a lesser rate (which is bad for the 'economy'). Businesses should become attracted to devcoins, because devcoin earners would rather buy bread with devcoins, instead of doing a dvc->btc->usd conversion with all the slippage and fees involved. This is a totally under serviced market for basic everyday goods; something bitcoins are not as suitable for. If I had a choice to spend my devcoins on hand or my btc on hand when going grocery shopping, I would much rather spend my dvc. It has the convenience and security of btc, but also has a way I can easily earn more at a predictable rate. I even know in advance how much I'll be earning next month, so I can even budget. This is what makes for a good economic/transaction coin...incentive to spend it is built in.

A good transaction coin can be easily earned or purchased. You don't need to invest anything other than your labour to earn devcoins. No capital, no hardware, nothing but your brain for hire. At any point in time, a new devcoiner can join the community with no disadvantage to being a late adopter in a pyramid scheme, with earnings being linked to skill rather than how soon you joined. Totally different to bitcoins. With the huge number of devcoins already spread to many hands, devcoins will reach market stability faster than bitcoins will. If the price rises a lot, the share difficulty goes through the roof (more work gets done), until it's back to a stable ultra long term real-world relevant level. While it's a small thing, it is important - there is a base level of pay that writers seem to refuse to dump their coins under. US$10-13/share has been a consistent bottom for prices, even with the same 200M coins being distributed round after round. There has been dvc volume on exchanges, but the price has been stable, meaning people are holding on to them to get their target wages. Devtome writing is as strong as ever (468 shares in round 37, 67% of total), so writers and private investors have found a stable free-market equilibrium all by themselves. We can probably pin the value of a devcoin to this figure, because it's been lasting for months, and has been visited in the past too. As a free market user, I know that if I want some writing done, I can confidently offer US$10-13 per 1000 words for an average writer, and expect it to be fulfilled, and maybe double for a good writer. This is completely independant of the dvc/btc/usd prices, so we can estimate the dvc/btc price based on btc/usd price, and investors can get an idea of when they're supporting devcoins at bargain prices or inflated ones.

This is all completely different for someone buying devcoins to perform a transaction with. The only people, at the moment, that you can buy anything from are writers and some developers willing to accept them. Businesses don't really have a big reason to set up shop only accepting dvc. It doesn't really make sense to do that. When we extend our umbrella to aural and visual creative commons, we'll have more people, but that is essentially the scope of our economy. These are all pretty cool people to have on board, and there's a good chance that once we have people of these different disciplines earning shares through os/cc work, there will be businesses crop up that service them, possibly attracting more of the general public. I, for one, would think us pretty successful if we were the go-to coin for developers, writers, artists and musicians (and variations of) within the next 2-3 years. Except for maybe developers, these communities are not typically interested in cryptocurrencies, so we would be the introduction for them, which is a big deal. There *could* be a larger economy that grows out of that, but that is largely unknown.

Devcoins in particular

I personally feel I have to make a choice whenever I look at an alt-coin between investing all I have in that, or all I have in bitcoins (not really a choice), whereas devcoins are so completely different in every way to bitcoins, that it's like comparing apples to oranges. Bitcoiners doggedly seeking business transactions to get wider adoption don't seem to understand that they are the ones who will be paying for transactions through reduced coin value, because all of its value is based on a house of cards. The transaction value of a bitcoin is far, far, far lower than what it is right now, and if everyone actually used it to transact with as they intend, there will be blood in the streets.

If you're a devcoin speculator, then this will all probably sound like bad news for you. It's unfortunately impossible for an item to be both a store of value, and a good currency for an active economy. Devcoin, whether it likes it or not, is a better currency than it is a store of value, for all the reasons listed above. We could try to play it to its strengths, or we could fight an uphill battle raising the dvc/btc price for the sake of raising it. There are a ton of currencies that are better at that than this one. It took me a little time to realize that myself, but it does make sense to me now. The proposals I will release soon on where we should go next will take a lot of what I've mentioned here into account.

Focusing on the dvc/btc price as a metric of performance is completely missing the point of devcoins. There are ways to improve the conversion rate, and one is a side-effect of fixing the balance of productivity between different devcoin disciplines. I'll get to that at another time, but for now: If we go after straight dvc/btc price increases for the sake of getting more attention, we're going to lose without drastically changing the way shares are earned (especially devtome). All it will do is increase devtome output until any benefits have been eroded. Devtome needs a stern talking to and some brakes put on it, but that's part of my proposal under draft. If we focus on our actual mission - proliferating open source development and all creative commons - the entire project gains credibility and extrinsic value. This is where we will win, and get devcoin onto more lips, including the people who are actually going to put the usd/btc in to support all these people doing this open source/cc work. The best metric for our success is how many shares a round we are producing, which is directly related to our reputation for proliferating our mission. We will only be able to increase our share rate, if we can convince the greater public that by giving us money (buying devcoins), they're directly contributing to the most cost efficient open-source and creative commons proliferation project in the world. Devcoins are not a greater-fool speculative coin, but a human value concentrating coin. We're something people like Warren Buffet might consider changing his mind about crypto currencies for. He's a value investor, and devcoin needs value investors, which it can only attract by efficiently producing valuable work.

Devcoin investors, only have bright things to expect from this coin. I'm confident that I have a workable solution for the next phase of devcoin's development, to give it a more stable foundation, fairer pay for all disciplines, and better long term prospects for wider adoption. We do need to create an organizational structure that can handle all this, but it will give us more flexibility for the good of the community, and all will be open for discussion soon.

TL;DR: Devcoins are complementary to bitcoins. They make the best case for a transaction coin out of every single bitoin-family coin, because they are the least attractive to speculators, among other things.

You definitely make some good points here about this being a transaction coin rather than a store of value, and also about increasing the number of people earning coins which would also improve distribution and give the illusion of scarcity (because each person individually has less and so values each coin more). But how do you convince people to want to earn them if there's not much to do with them and the value is low and falling? Also, like you say, there isn't much incentive for businesses to accept them for transactions and this won't change unless there is an incentive for people to buy DVC rather than earn them, because any business is going to want to sell the coins they get so they would need buyers for those coins. And people who are already earning them from generation are probably not going to want to do more work for other devcoiners in return for DVC because they will already have coins that they can't do anything with but either hold as a speculation on value or sell, so the alternative economy route will be difficult to try to build.

You say you have a workable solution - what is that solution?

[Hunterbunter]

You definitely make some good points here about this being a transaction coin rather than a store of value, and also about increasing the number of people earning coins which would also improve distribution and give the illusion of scarcity (because each person individually has less and so values each coin more). But how do you convince people to want to earn them if there's not much to do with them and the value is low and falling? Also, like you say, there isn't much incentive for businesses to accept them for transactions and this won't change unless there is an incentive for people to buy DVC rather than earn them, because any business is going to want to sell the coins they get so they would need buyers for those coins. And people who are already earning them from generation are probably not going to want to do more work for other devcoiners in return for DVC because they will already have coins that they can't do anything with but either hold as a speculation on value or sell, so the alternative economy route will be difficult to try to build.

That's right, it's well established that higher bitcoin prices lead to higher mining difficulty, just as higher dvc prices lead to more shares being created per round (higher share difficulty). The other way isn't so clear, but if a high mining difficulty does in fact lead to higher bitcoin prices, then it should translate to shares, too. Each person who earns a share has a $/share in mind when they do that work, and once the round has ended and they know how many dvc's they're getting, they can hold on to those coins to get the $/share value they want or sell immediately if it's higher. This is what's been happening all this time, as far as I can tell from watching the dvc market dynamics.

We don't really have to convince people to work for the coins, if the market price shows them that they will earn the equivalent of a $xx/time that suits them, people will work. The difficulty as you point out is sustaining that pay and growing it. The reality is that we don't *have* to do anything, the free market is already doing this right now, but we can make it more efficient and balanced. I thought people would stop producing shares completely after the last speculative burst in price, but that's not what happened, the share difficulty (how many shares are produced a round) has hit a higher low than the last lull in price, so people have been attracted and they have stuck. Speculators do play an important role in getting those people, but it's hard to know just how much is due to them alone, or other factors like awareness and true investors.

The b2b aspect will have to be addressed at some point, but before that we need more coders interested in dvcs. Ideally we would create the open source platform for which businesses could transact in devcoin, with each other, extending the time before being changed to btc/fiat as long as possible, and that's something we'll look at later.

Setting up new businesses to create incentive for people to buy dvc is a futile endeavor, or at least a very difficult task. It requires the business to exclusively only accept dvc (why would they?), the person buying dvc to literally choose this business over another one that doesn't have the dvc requirement (why would they?). After the transaction is complete, what is the business going to store their profit in? if it's not dvc, then what's the point in even transacting in dvc? A better solution would be to encourage devcoin earners/holders/buyers to invest in businesses listed in dvc on something like crypto-stocks. We could also encourage businesses that service the people who are earning them round by round (they would still need btc support, though). It's a small niche economy, but a real working one is a ton more valuable than a fictional world-wide one, and as volume increases, we won't have to convince anyone to accept dvcs, they will want to of their own accord.

The really hard part is investor confidence. The philanthropists out there who realize what we're doing is for the good of all, and we need support. If these people believe in what we're doing, and that we're going about it the right way, then they will provide btc support. I'm sure of it. In a way, owning dvcs is like owning a non-dividend share in a company. You can't really do much with shares at all, but you are still supporting that company just by owning them. From another perspective, you're also owning a piece of the intrinsic value of that model of doing things. Just like when you own some USD, you're explicitly stating that you like the way the US is doing things, instead of say, Zimbabwe dollars. This is where I got the "stick to our mission". Corruption is rife in the crypto-world; we will do far better by maintaining integrity, and we can only do that by doing what we say we will and actually focus on producing open source /cc stuff. An economy that rises out of it is secondary to that mission, but it's something that a lot of people want, it does add value, and we can even use our own resources to create the bricks that will build it (os software driven solutions). This is the only legitimate way we can sustainably increase the amount of btc support for the work that we're doing, because it is valuable, and multiplying.

You say you have a workable solution - what is that solution?

I have to check that bits of it can be implemented in the receiver associated code before I can fully call it workable, but the logic is sound.

The proposal revolves around disconnecting each discipline (os, writing, visual, aural) to allow their share values ($/share) to float freely, and find their own market acceptable rates. At the moment a coder has to work for the $/share writers set, and little coding is getting done. In the future the other disciplines may have the same problem, so we need a self-balancing system, which will come about through normalization.

The second part is a community fund with various functions, which will be fed by generation shares. This will give us some flexibility that generation shares don't allow, such as startup incubation, market support (anti-volatility action), community ownership, etc.

[profitofthegods]

A better solution would be to encourage devcoin earners/holders/buyers to invest in businesses listed in dvc on something like crypto-stocks.

This would be good, I'd love to see more DVC listing on Cryptostocks.

[Papacrusher]

A better solution would be to encourage devcoin earners/holders/buyers to invest in businesses listed in dvc on something like crypto-stocks.

This would be good, I'd love to see more DVC listing on Cryptostocks.

As would I.

The other steps Hunterbunter touched upon definitely are steps in the right direction.

Papa

[K1773R]

A better solution would be to encourage devcoin earners/holders/buyers to invest in businesses listed in dvc on something like crypto-stocks.

This would be good, I'd love to see more DVC listing on Cryptostocks.

Cryptostocks is kinda dead due to the several scams pulled by Kumala.

[profitofthegods]

A better solution would be to encourage devcoin earners/holders/buyers to invest in businesses listed in dvc on something like crypto-stocks.

This would be good, I'd love to see more DVC listing on Cryptostocks.

Cryptostocks is kinda dead due to the several scams pulled by Kumala.

True, but its the only place for DVC listings. It would be even better if there was somewhere else.

[K1773R]

A better solution would be to encourage devcoin earners/holders/buyers to invest in businesses listed in dvc on something like crypto-stocks.

This would be good, I'd love to see more DVC listing on Cryptostocks.

Cryptostocks is kinda dead due to the several scams pulled by Kumala.

True, but its the only place for DVC listings. It would be even better if there was somewhere else.

The problem is simple; why should/would someone invest with a platform of a known scammer?

[smeagol]

What exactly did Kumala do, besides the VirCurEx fiasco?

[K1773R]

What exactly did Kumala do, besides the VirCurEx fiasco?

VCX + C::S combination fiasco

Created VCX (vircurex) on cryptostocks, then he broke the contract and stopped paying dividends.
Fractional Reserve @ VCX
Stole/Froze funds of VCX users.
Unfairly distributed the rest of the coins (top down 50% and down top 50%), so that the rich stay rich, the poor will still have their tiny poorness and all others loose everything. Hoping to result in less user being mad/affected...

Not even to talk about no support for VCX nor cryptostocks, their mail servers are borked for months and they still give a fuck.

Some references, you can find more

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=569037.msg6197035#msg6197035
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=226366.msg2383179#msg2383179


EDIT: eek, this is my 2k's post.

[novacadian]

Hey sidhujag, has devcoinauctions.com stopped?

No auctions, no login (and what about my credits...    )... 

No not stopped planning on doing some seo with more auctions and a proper launch with an ann thread.

You cant log in?

We had a baby a few months ago thats why been really busy but I am planning on going forward. Develcuy expressed interest in doing seo for it... your bids are all still there dont worry!

Ok, I was just wondering.

On a side note, DVC kept dropping in price lately....

Lately?

The price is constantly dropping. 350k USD as market cap? Three years of work equivalent to 680 Bitcoin?
Unless you make something serious to get DVC known, involving the public, you will continually assist to a deadly decline.
What is more sad, I really believed something good could have been achieved through this project.
But you have failed in getting no-profit organisations involved, using them as traction to the project itself.

You are so busy in rewarding writers, when much more could have been accomplished. Imagine to support any kind of art and humanitarian project, asking receivers to expose the dvc logo. They would be the first to promote the use of dvc, since it would mean more support and value to their coins.

Can you imagine someone receiving devcoin for painting, assisting elderly ones, helping youths in developing countries, etc.? Writing is just a minor aspect.

"Devcoin is an ethically inspired cryptocurrency"

Ethical: 'fair, and just dealing with people...'

DVC will be ethical when it will really strive to give to anybody the same opportunity to be supported in their art, in developing a social project, in expressing their creativity.
Since DVC has limited itself mainly to programmers and writers, that't why it's sinking.

DevTome is a wealth of ad revenue yet to be fully realized. Once it is that revenue stream will bolster upward market pressure.

Devcoin is about supporting open source programming. To see that as a disability is not to understand it's mandate.

- Nova

[sidhujag]

Hey sidhujag, has devcoinauctions.com stopped?

No auctions, no login (and what about my credits...    )... 

No not stopped planning on doing some seo with more auctions and a proper launch with an ann thread.

You cant log in?

We had a baby a few months ago thats why been really busy but I am planning on going forward. Develcuy expressed interest in doing seo for it... your bids are all still there dont worry!

Ok, I was just wondering.

On a side note, DVC kept dropping in price lately....

Lately?

The price is constantly dropping. 350k USD as market cap? Three years of work equivalent to 680 Bitcoin?
Unless you make something serious to get DVC known, involving the public, you will continually assist to a deadly decline.
What is more sad, I really believed something good could have been achieved through this project.
But you have failed in getting no-profit organisations involved, using them as traction to the project itself.

You are so busy in rewarding writers, when much more could have been accomplished. Imagine to support any kind of art and humanitarian project, asking receivers to expose the dvc logo. They would be the first to promote the use of dvc, since it would mean more support and value to their coins.

Can you imagine someone receiving devcoin for painting, assisting elderly ones, helping youths in developing countries, etc.? Writing is just a minor aspect.

"Devcoin is an ethically inspired cryptocurrency"

Ethical: 'fair, and just dealing with people...'

DVC will be ethical when it will really strive to give to anybody the same opportunity to be supported in their art, in developing a social project, in expressing their creativity.
Since DVC has limited itself mainly to programmers and writers, that't why it's sinking.

DevTome is a wealth of ad revenue yet to be fully realized. Once it is that revenue stream will bolster upward market pressure.

Devcoin is about supporting open source programming. To see that as a disability is not to understand it's mandate.

- Nova

First it has to support itself let alone put upward pressure on price. We only do 0.04btc a month while writers expect alot more based on market price.. once it supports itself then we can profit off of it.

I want to get back to the auction site but things like this which dont cost too much but offer a return potentially are the way to go fwd imo.. once people catch on it will be a frenzy but right now there is no interest because of the structure of the rewards system... no incentive to hold or even build as of yet.

[novacadian]

Hey sidhujag, has devcoinauctions.com stopped?

No auctions, no login (and what about my credits...    )... 

No not stopped planning on doing some seo with more auctions and a proper launch with an ann thread.

You cant log in?

We had a baby a few months ago thats why been really busy but I am planning on going forward. Develcuy expressed interest in doing seo for it... your bids are all still there dont worry!

Ok, I was just wondering.

On a side note, DVC kept dropping in price lately....

Lately?

The price is constantly dropping. 350k USD as market cap? Three years of work equivalent to 680 Bitcoin?
Unless you make something serious to get DVC known, involving the public, you will continually assist to a deadly decline.
What is more sad, I really believed something good could have been achieved through this project.
But you have failed in getting no-profit organisations involved, using them as traction to the project itself.

You are so busy in rewarding writers, when much more could have been accomplished. Imagine to support any kind of art and humanitarian project, asking receivers to expose the dvc logo. They would be the first to promote the use of dvc, since it would mean more support and value to their coins.

Can you imagine someone receiving devcoin for painting, assisting elderly ones, helping youths in developing countries, etc.? Writing is just a minor aspect.

"Devcoin is an ethically inspired cryptocurrency"

Ethical: 'fair, and just dealing with people...'

DVC will be ethical when it will really strive to give to anybody the same opportunity to be supported in their art, in developing a social project, in expressing their creativity.
Since DVC has limited itself mainly to programmers and writers, that't why it's sinking.

DevTome is a wealth of ad revenue yet to be fully realized. Once it is that revenue stream will bolster upward market pressure.

Devcoin is about supporting open source programming. To see that as a disability is not to understand it's mandate.

- Nova

First it has to support itself let alone put upward pressure on price. We only do 0.04btc a month while writers expect alot more based on market price.. once it supports itself then we can profit off of it.

I want to get back to the auction site but things like this which dont cost too much but offer a return potentially are the way to go fwd imo.. once people catch on it will be a frenzy but right now there is no interest because of the structure of the rewards system... no incentive to hold or even build as of yet.

If there could be a forking of PG rated content and R rated content so as to attract AdSense then we would be see a huge difference in ad revenue than at present. This has been discussed on the forum already.

Of course any DVC POS is a help. That does not discredit the true potential that DevTome has to offer.

- Nova

[Papacrusher]

I'm definitely with Nova on realizing a greater ad revenue by forking PG and R Devtome material.  I think this will go a very long way in Devtome becoming self-supporting and eventual a strong revenue stream for DVC.

Papa

[OleOle]

It's brutal watching the trials and tribulations of DVC and the continual wheel spin associated with the project.


When taking a look at the one year performance...

http://www.cryptocoincharts.info/period-charts.php?period=1-year&resolution=day&pair=dvc-btc&market=vircurex

... it's been difficult to see if initiatives are actually valiant attempts to raise the currency from its tending towards zero trajectory or whether those actions were artful maneuvers cleverly concealing pump and dump activities.


Best of luck to everyone involved in the project.