[DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated

[dalamar96]

I would think they would pay to be the first to get it.

[markm]

We are not "most people".

We want people to be able to use the devcoin client free because we want people to be able to use devcoins.

We want people to be able to install an operating system free because we want to run programs on an operating system and making people pay for the operating system causes less people to be able to afford the platform on which our programs run.

We want people to be able to use Freeciv free because we don't want people to have to buy a proprietary program in order to participate in our game.

We want people to be able to use Crossfire RPG free for that same reason. Same for Battle for Wesnoth.

(Freeciv, Crossfire RPG and Battle for Wesnoth are all ways a person could participate in our game depending on what kind of scale they prefer to participate at.)

We want people to be able to use OpenSimulator free because some folks like a 3-dimensional immersive interface, so we would like people who prefer such an interface to be free to use it to interact with our game and the players of our game.

We want people to be able to set up community banking type systems (e.g. Cyclos)  free because we want the clans, guilds, nations and so on and so on in our game to be able to make the markets, banks and stock exchanges they build in their cities actually work.

Same for Open Transactions.

And so on...

-MarkM-

[sidhujag]

ya nvm any devcoin funded project would obviously be open source. I was just thinking of private projects and that would be up to the person if they wanted to open it up or
not... but the service to use an exchange where you can post your project your willinh to pay in devcoins for is key ... it would help devcoin become the everyday coin you use to pay for things like you were saying before that it was considered as originally.

[novacadian]

Aah I see so that way people would come in with project requests that a developer would work on probably payment done via devcoin and its released under something like gpl where you can use it for profit but source is open.

After the source is created however what stops others from copying the idea? Today most people would not want to pay for something that someone else could end up using for free afterwards.

As mentioned it was only an off the top of my head example of thinking outside the box. However if we are to follow that thought then one would not be copying the idea but in fact encouraged to do so. There is also support, something which Red Hat earns good profit supplying. If you wanted a mod or help installing software on the Devcoin DVD then who would you go to? Our stable of developers of course! If the funds given out as bounties, now, were directed to software development for development sake then the content of the DVDs would grow. Version 1.0 release would not have X piece of software that only came out in Version 1.1.

As the library grows so too could the DVDs. There could be categories. DVCGames, DVCOffice, etc.

Again this is an off the top of my head idea. My point is that we should really try to think outside the box in where to take things and not try to mimic the commercial nature of software development which, generally, has the developers on the lowest rung of earnings when what they are creating is, often, the only reason there are earnings in the first place.

- Nova

[Edit: typos]

[novacadian]

Sorry for the double post yet imagine bounties for white room copies of any successful proprietary commercial application out there. It would be nice to see the marketeers racing for the bottom like freelance programmers for a change.

- Nova

[sidhujag]

Aah I see so that way people would come in with project requests that a developer would work on probably payment done via devcoin and its released under something like gpl where you can use it for profit but source is open.

After the source is created however what stops others from copying the idea? Today most people would not want to pay for something that someone else could end up using for free afterwards.

As mentioned it was only an off the top of my head example of thinking outside the box. However if we are to follow that thought then one would not be copying the idea but in fact encouraged to do so. There is also support, something which Red Hat earns good profit supplying. If you wanted a mod or help installing software on the Devcoin DVD then who would you go to? Our stable of developers of course! If the funds given out as bounties, now, were directed to software development for development sake then the content of the DVDs would grow. Version 1.0 release would not have X piece of software that only came out in Version 1.1.

As the library grows so too could the DVDs. There could be categories. DVCGames, DVCOffice, etc.

Again this is an off the top of my head idea. My point is that we should really try to think outside the box in where to take things and not try to mimic the commercial nature of software development which, generally, has the developers on the lowest rung of earnings when what they are creating is, often, the only reason there are earnings in the first place.

- Nova

[Edit: typos]

This is very true its what led me to buy gpl code for wordpress templates.. you get latest greatest. The model is being used and it works.. gives a good impression too.

[melodiem]

you may have to look at the exchanges separately and do some math....i'm using crypto-trade, and often the volume numbers there don't line up with the price jumps, so there's an average price adjustment that reflects all of the exchanges, but i think, at least on crypto-trade, the volume graph is for local trades on that particular exchange. i suppose if you signed up on all the exchanges, you could use their api functions to feed you volume data and price data, and merge it to get a clearer picture.... even pricing data seems to vary depending on the exchange. for instance on my multibit wallet for btc, i have mt gox and e-trade prices listed for btc, and they're often different by $100.00 or more. obviously mt gox does a higher volume, so it's prices will have a wider trading range.... which gives me an idea for a follow-up to my article on day trading......

Thanks Uncle Jed, I only need Devcoin and only for a supposition at this point so accuracy isnt as important as knowing the information is available.

[melodiem]

Since as of yesterday I am the only person who put anything up on the DevBank/Cyclos site I think we may assume that the average writer is not very interested in doing anything but write about their chosen subject at the moment.
Of course a lack of promotion to writers may play a part in this.
This is not a good situation to be in and has to change otherwise developers will be justified to complain.

In any case writer bounties should go on the DevBank/Cyclos site.
There is no need for a bidding war as bounties can start low and be raised if no one takes them.
ThinkI

What is devbank/cyclos?

[weisoq]

I think the advantage would be that if your a developer there will be a portal for them to
go to do work and get paid. But yea kinda like freelancing.. So I think it will be a continual work in progress while we are smalltime.

There are oodles of such sites out there already. To most people it would just seem a bother and risk to be paid in DVC if they are not into it already. We should really try to think outside the box in how we treat software developers, as that is the general intent of this project to my understanding.

Just an idea of thinking outside the box and not meant as something that need be actually used. Bounties are placed for all kinds of projects for fair and equatable bounties. Those projects are then bundled on DVDs that can be purchased from this project, much like Red Hat charges for Open Source.

The developers receive a fair and equatable wage and the project receives a product to sell for profit.

Let's not just go down the same road where the developer is there to be the pet monkey for the front office suits.

- Nova

I’d like to better understand what you’re saying. My main driver on Devcoin is basically the philosophy and actually trying to build something that can improve upon today. Not dreamy but pragmatic improvement.

My thoughts have been (1) on having somewhere visible to list and monitor official bounties, making them easier to maintain and find; (2) a separate general exchange in devcoins longer-term. The former wouldn't be 3rd party and the latter wouldn't involve receivers or necessarily be open source or for 'developers' only - it could be for any work (goods or services) in devcoins that supply/demand dictates.

You make some points I at least hadn't considered in terms of basic incentive and ethos that may mean the two still overlap, and/or perhaps gets too complicated and counter-productive? What do you think on the aspects of the concept that could be grown to maintain interest by all parties, without undermining that ethos? Or are you differentiating between the core remit of supporting work and open source development, and anything else that people might put together to maintain that 'economy' and wants or needs of those in it?

[markm]

Since as of yesterday I am the only person who put anything up on the DevBank/Cyclos site I think we may assume that the average writer is not very interested in doing anything but write about their chosen subject at the moment.
Of course a lack of promotion to writers may play a part in this.
This is not a good situation to be in and has to change otherwise developers will be justified to complain.

In any case writer bounties should go on the DevBank/Cyclos site.
There is no need for a bidding war as bounties can start low and be raised if no one takes them.
ThinkI

What is devbank/cyclos?

It was mentioned earlier in the thread, just in the last few days.

Cyclos is a community banking system, free open source. It has stuff that lets you sell things on your website similar to how PayPal does, it has apps for umpteen different kinds of phones, it lets the admins define all kinds of currencies and what types of things (actions, transactions etc) to enable for each currency and so on. It even has gateways or something about external accounts so you can administer portions of your funds etc that reside in "traditional" banking systems by the look of it, and links between Cyclos instances so different community currencies can talk to each other.

All I have done is change the name of its default currency to Devcoins and max out the number of decimals it supports (which is four or five or six or so I think).

Basically to plug in more currencies would require understanding all the many many many options about the currency, which so far I do not. Changing the name of the default currency is easy, understanding what all the many many settigns controlling what the default currency can do is much harder but would be needed if one wanted to add a second currency with any real understanding of what exactly one is setting that second currency up to be capable of.

So basically it is great to grab out of the box change the default currency to your community currency and go with it, but it could also do so much more if you understood what exactly all its many many transaction types and categories and relationships and so on are actually about.

It also has an advertising system built in for its users to advertise things to each other.

The idea was that for example authors could advertise writing services.

It is at http://dvcstable02.dvcnode.org:8080

Which if fortunate (that it is on dvcstable02) since dvcstable01 bloew its motherboard a whiel back and is still waiting for a new one, and dvcstable06, possibly due to trying to take up the load by running some of what used to run on dvcstable01, can be pinged but not logged on to, not sure what is up with it. dvcstable02 still seems to be working for now though.

Cyclos home page with info all about it and so on is probably at http://cyclos.org I would guess.

I head a while back that its devs were thinking of going forward as closed source in future so the open source version might be about to be orphaned, in which case maybe it would be an excellent project for the Devcoin project to support, to try to make sure the free open source version stays up to date and maybe even gets improved. (Like maybe we could get blockchain-currency gateways made for it for example?)

-MarkM-

[melodiem]

Saw it...

I think bounties should be in coins not shares since it is another indirection away from how much you will be paid. If we do a jobboard and we post in coins everyone knows how much they are getting if it is accepted by someone..

Also it makes sense for people posting services or work to be done via devcoins to have to transfer in those coins to the site so that it can be transfered as a trusted third party to the developer once product is delivered and accepted. The site offers all of this and it is a way for workers amd service providers to work together without worrying about people not getting paid or work not done properly etc.

Anyways when I put it up you can see better no point to talk about it yet....

Id probably work with you once I get it hosted.

Nice site Dalamar. clean and simple and easy for new visitors. I found the bounties link and I agree with Sidhujag about DVC vs shares for offering bounties, but understand why shares is the method. Hunterbunters data set shows a running DVC value of shares in the new rounds so maybe this could be useful? http://dvccountdown.blisteringdevelopers.com/

and I found this really useful too: http://dvccountdown.blisteringdevelopers.com/devtome

It will be great when we get all the good work people are doing into one easy to access place.

[melodiem]

There is no need for a bidding war as bounties can start low and be raised if no one takes them.

The bidding war will be as the bounty sinks to the equivalent of $3/hour which is the wage many good Asian programmers are willing/able to work.

- Nova

The bottom line is, if no one else wants to do the work and once it drrops to $3 a good Asian programmer picks it up then it will get done, the developer will get paid what they are happy being paid. (One would hope they saw it before it dropped but if not....)

This is only a problem if bounties are some way influencing the overall value of DVC for everyone else isnt it?

[novacadian]

I’d like to better understand what you’re saying. My main driver on Devcoin is basically the philosophy and actually trying to build something that can improve upon today. Not dreamy but pragmatic improvement.

We share the same driver/interest, although my thoughts may drift more towards the dreamy side. Normally my dreamy thoughts have little merit in the saturation of capitalist concepts, short of some revolutionary or market crash event; which in recent history did not seem out of the question.

This project opens the possibility of such thoughts in a constructive manner. There are no strict guidelines that need to be enforced like we would find on Main St.. It is for that reason that my suggestion is to think way outside the box of Main St.. Not to mimic it but to take things where it cannot.

As to what that will/could evolve into would be some consensus found among this community.

My thoughts have been (1) on having somewhere visible to list and monitor official bounties, making them easier to maintain and find;

This would be a good thing in my opinion. However how one is rewarded is the issue where we could break new ground. My feeling is that this should be tempered with the main concern being for the developer not the end client. This is open source we are talking about after all. It is meant for everyone.

(2) a separate general exchange in devcoins longer-term. The former wouldn't be 3rd party and the latter wouldn't involve receivers or necessarily be open source or for 'developers' only - it could be for any work (goods or services) in devcoins that supply/demand dictates.

Again a great idea on face value. To relate to this project then, in my way of thinking, some thought to fair and equitable payment should be a focus. Say I will clean your toilet for X dollars then someone else comes along that will clean it for Y dollars. We are into the old market system and the only winner is the one who owns the toilet and does not want to clean it themselves. Again, only imagine, that someone advertises that they will clean toilets and someone else advertises that they will also clean toilets. Perhaps then the users of the site could vote what they think toilet cleaning is worth and both would then have to do it for that price or give up toilet cleaning.

Again only an off the top of my head idea, yet hopefully an example of how we can approach this with not a race to the bottom but a race towards equity. 

- Nova

[novacadian]

The bottom line is, if no one else wants to do the work and once it drrops to $3 a good Asian programmer picks it up then it will get done,

Again, sorry for the double post....

Why should an Asian programmer have to work for $3 per hour anyway? That is another concept that crypto currency could break. We are all on the same ball of dirt. Why should the Asian get any less than a western programmer or clothes manufacturer for that matter. They can in a competition to the bottom because rice and rent may be cheaper for them. Otherwise why not raise them up rather than take advantage of them being down trodden?

My request is only to think outside of the box.

- Nova

[Edit: typos]

[melodiem]

Cyclos is a community banking system, free open source. It has stuff that lets you sell things on your website similar to how PayPal does, it has apps for umpteen different kinds of phones, it lets the admins define all kinds of currencies and what types of things (actions, transactions etc) to enable for each currency and so on. It even has gateways or something about external accounts so you can administer portions of your funds etc that reside in "traditional" banking systems by the look of it, and links between Cyclos instances so different community currencies can talk to each other.

I missed the conversation, I do scroll back and read but if I miss a few days its a lot of catching up.  I also have my head full of other stuff so looking into yet another new thing will quite possibly overload - I have bookmarked it to look at when Im a bit more mentally available

If the developers are thinking of commercialising the product (leaving the open source one an orphan?) is it worth contacting them and asking them if they recommend a developer who might be interested in making it work for devcoin purposes?

I will follow this up myself later but right now Im working on two discussion sheets leading to two projects, playing with PHP, building a (client) website for paintings and another for an animal rescue group and I have an exhibition Sunday week that I still have a number of half finished pieces to finish...(Who said working from home was going to be a quiet life!??) Its no help that I talk too much for someone with no time lol  

[novacadian]

The bottom line is, if no one else wants to do the work and once it drrops to $3...

Last thought before putting a gag on for a while.

It appears to me that if a project has been sitting around for a long time that the bounty should be raised to attract the talent it obviously required to have been sitting around for so long anyway. Lowering it is only catering to those requesting the bounty not those bringing it to reality.

- Nova

[dalamar96]

Saw it...

I think bounties should be in coins not shares since it is another indirection away from how much you will be paid. If we do a jobboard and we post in coins everyone knows how much they are getting if it is accepted by someone..

Also it makes sense for people posting services or work to be done via devcoins to have to transfer in those coins to the site so that it can be transfered as a trusted third party to the developer once product is delivered and accepted. The site offers all of this and it is a way for workers amd service providers to work together without worrying about people not getting paid or work not done properly etc.

Anyways when I put it up you can see better no point to talk about it yet....

Id probably work with you once I get it hosted.

Nice site Dalamar. clean and simple and easy for new visitors. I found the bounties link and I agree with Sidhujag about DVC vs shares for offering bounties, but understand why shares is the method. Hunterbunters data set shows a running DVC value of shares in the new rounds so maybe this could be useful? http://dvccountdown.blisteringdevelopers.com/

and I found this really useful too: http://dvccountdown.blisteringdevelopers.com/devtome

It will be great when we get all the good work people are doing into one easy to access place.

Yeah, I have the DVC value of shares right now on the site, I also have it so it shows you your shares as it stands for the day if you log in. I want to add the devtome stats to the graphs area below for those who are logged in. At any rate, I will be adding more over time Thanx

[dalamar96]

The bottom line is, if no one else wants to do the work and once it drrops to $3...

Last thought before putting a gag on for a while.

It appears to me that if a project has been sitting around for a long time that the bounty should be raised to attract the talent it obviously required to have been sitting around for so long anyway. Lowering it is only catering to those requesting the bounty not those bringing it to reality.

- Nova

Agreed

[weisoq]

We share the same driver/interest, although my thoughts may drift more towards the dreamy side. Normally my dreamy thoughts have little merit in the saturation of capitalist concepts, short of some revolutionary or market crash event; which in recent history did not seem out of the question.

This project opens the possibility of such thoughts in a constructive manner. There are no strict guidelines that need to be enforced like we would find on Main St.. It is for that reason that my suggestion is to think way outside the box of Main St.. Not to mimic it but to take things where it cannot.

As to what that will/could evolve into would be some consensus found among this community.

...This would be a good thing in my opinion. However how one is rewarded is the issue where we could break new ground. My feeling is that this should be tempered with the main concern being for the developer not the end client. This is open source we are talking about after all. It is meant for everyone.

...Again a great idea on face value. To relate to this project then, in my way of thinking, some thought to fair and equitable payment should be a focus. Say I will clean your toilet for X dollars then someone else comes along that will clean it for Y dollars. We are into the old market system and the only winner is the one who owns the toilet and does not want to clean it themselves. Again, only imagine, that someone advertises that they will clean toilets and someone else advertises that they will also clean toilets. Perhaps then the users of the site could vote what they think toilet cleaning is worth and both would then have to do it for that price or give up toilet cleaning.

Again only an off the top of my head idea, yet hopefully an example of how we can approach this with not a race to the bottom but a race towards equity.  

- Nova

Ok I see where you're coming from, you just want to change the world... I might not share your earthly 'politics', but when you take a spectrum and draw the ends together into the reality of belief structures then our views aren't so different. Where we might share a particular view is that I think devcoin is representative of acertain possibilities and slow changes going on in society's view of itself, finance, communities.

In the meantime I'm focused more on step-by-step, rather than the biggest picture. That doesn't make bigger pictures any less important, but I do relent to practicalities on the journey to progress.

'Fair and equitable payment': getting from A to Z alive is going to need a lot of fellow travellers, and much rests on balancing priorities with sustainability. I think markets work; not ayn rand markets but collaboration and economy. Getting them to work equitably for everyone. Well, that takes a step into charity or coercion or something else we haven't quite wrapped our collective human brain around yet. Could devcoin channel another way; well it's already different. Different now has to work. For a collaborative project to work in needs support.

So I look at gradual improvements as better than none, steps in the right direction.

[melodiem]

My bottom line would be that if no one wants to do the bounty then the price should be raised until it finally attracts the talent that it obviously required to be sitting around for so long.

- Nova

An excellent idea... and if the good Asian programmers get it first before it goes up.. bonus for them!

As a freelancer who accepted the BS sum of $2.50 for my first 1000 word article in the foolish hope it would get me more work (not long before coming to Devtome) and even less per hour for my first web design freelance job (about 6-7 years ago?) while working my business outside a regular job, I guess I would have been considered an Asian programmer back then and writer now, apart from being an Aussie...

I now use freelancers myself and have a deep appreciation for the flexibility their services lend my business but it also gives me an insight into work-payment disparity across the world....Your comment raises the question (for me) of how fair it is to judge everything against the USD and what "we" think work is worth.

For example, there is one freelance programmer I use from the Philippines, He was delighted when I paid him Aussie rates (in Pesos) for his first project with me. Where he lives, that one (3-4 day) job amounted to a couple months salary. Over the years I have probably paid him 2 years wages for the equivalent of 4 months IT wages here and he appreciates me as much as I appreciate him.

On the flipside of that I have a guy in Adelaide (Australia) I use who wouldn't even get out of bed for what the first guy charges. Both do great work, and because of my business structure both get paid equally (I pass external costs directly to the client so all labour charges at the same rate) but both would charge very differently if quoting for themselves. For me, (and my clients) the work is worth x so I pay x but I determine x not the seller.

(on a side note : Ask me one day about the Russian guy who used my server as his personal porn playground way back when I trusted people... In that case I got much, much more than I paid for!!)

The point is, before Devcoin - in a competitive online marketplace - the buyer has always been the determining factor in the value of work...what someone will pay for it, is what it is worth. That could vary across the world and when working in a global environment I think it's important to consider.

Devcoin is an opportunity to equalise the value of every contribution by determining real value to the wider community. Responding to lack of interest by dropping the price, is just buying into the same FIAT mentality crypto currency should be free of. (IMO)

Having said that, determining that value is not easy, but I am not sure the USD is the benchmark - maybe there needs to be some real consultation with the developer communities outside of Devtome?

If the focus is supporting Open Source/creative works then it needs to be remembered that Open Source is voluntary...in other words people are already doing it or willing to open their code/studio/typewriter without being paid and for some of us it such an absolute honour to be recognised financially or with some reward for our work (speaking personally) and so I would accept less or even nothing for my work if it is going to contribute to the community that does that for me/other people.

If we dont give in to the fear driven FIAT mentality then there is no reason why this situation would not continue to benefit developers and the community. Growth since inception (a year?) is pretty amazing in comparison to other community projects launched in a brand new arena with a brand new concept - and I suspect its precisely because for the designers/developers who started it, it wasn't about the money - but as soon as it becomes just about the money it is just another alt coin doing ok in the market...

The model is already in place but it is foreign to "us" because we live in a FIAT controlled environment. I dont know How we maintain the original model, but I believe it is important to the long term outcome for the Open Source/Creative community