1GH/s, 20w, $500 — Butterflylabs, is it a scam?

[RandyFolds]

What we need is a "search in thread" feature.

We have one.  Just use the search box while in a thread.

Yeah, the search function only works for whatever subsection you are in, so if it's a thread, it searches the thread, or if you are on a sub-board, it'll only search that.

[1713519648]

1713519648

[1713519648]

1713519648

[1713519648]

1713519648

[1713519648]

1713519648

[btc_artist]

Yeah, the search function only works for whatever subsection you are in, so if it's a thread, it searches the thread, or if you are on a sub-board, it'll only search that.

*puts on UX design hat*

1. Not very discoverable
2. Hinders searching whole site (you have to go back to the index to search the whole site?)
3. Many users may not realize their search had been limited by thread/forum and give up searching

Not too impressive, I must say.

Search should be a drop down with two search boxes, one to search everywhere, and a context-sensitive search box labeled "search thread" or "search forum" depending on where you are.

</offtopic>

[DeathAndTaxes]

Well I disagree less is more. 

Kinda like:

[btc_artist]

Well I disagree less is more.  

I actually agree with you 100% -- less is more.  But it still has to be well-designed and intuitive.  Google and Apple both accomplish this nicely.

Edit: Having a search box in the *header* that changes depending on context and doesn't notify the user about it is not intuitive.  Being in the header implies that it is site-wide, and nowhere is the user clued in that their search was magically limited (when they didn't expect it).

These problems would all be fixed if there was a notice on the search results: 

* "Searching in thread X, search entire board"
* "Searching in forum X, search entire board"

clicking the link would run the search again, without the limit.

[wormbog]

Interesting tidbit on the BFL preorder page:

"Funds: Pre-order funds are not held in escrow so if you aren't comfortable with our using your payment to prepare your product, you are encouraged to wait and make your order after post production units become available at the standard price of $599."

The short version: NO REFUNDS!

BFL, if you care to dispel these ongoing rumors that you're not a real business, here's what you can do: invite Inaba to stop by your offices and show him around. Show him your lab space and equipment. Let him hook one of your test units up to his pool for a few minutes.

You can refute all of the nay-sayers, myself included, by giving a trusted member of the bitcoin community a peek at your stuff. If Inaba says you're legit then I'm on board too.

[bulanula]

The most current dedicated (non-bot) miners are from Russia/Eastern Europe/ex-USSR, and are, frankly, artless opportunistic criminals (the worst sort IMO). They use streetlight/communal blocks’/schools’/gov. buildings’/etc. electricity due to lax laws/detection/enforcement/etc.

Got the right demographic there mate.

Interesting tidbit on the BFL preorder page:

"Funds: Pre-order funds are not held in escrow so if you aren't comfortable with our using your payment to prepare your product, you are encouraged to wait and make your order after post production units become available at the standard price of $599."

The short version: NO REFUNDS!

BFL, if you care to dispel these ongoing rumors that you're not a real business, here's what you can do: invite Inaba to stop by your offices and show him around. Show him your lab space and equipment. Let him hook one of your test units up to his pool for a few minutes.

You can refute all of the nay-sayers, myself included, by giving a trusted member of the bitcoin community a peek at your stuff. If Inaba says you're legit then I'm on board too.

Completely agree. This is why I keep thinking this is a scam. Lots of promises and no delivering to anyone ? Live demo event ? When ? Where ?

[Brian DeLoach]

I sincerely wish we would have made it to release before someone mentioned us on this forum.

 

Launching a website and asking for pre-orders didn't help.

[RandyFolds]

I sincerely wish we would have made it to release before someone mentioned us on this forum.

 

Launching a website and asking for pre-orders didn't help.

baaaaaaaaaaam. they seem to have the PR approach of a child with asperger's.

[bulanula]

If they did not make the pre order 500 bucks fiasco then there would not be any money to run away with in the first place.

Also, if they fail to deliver the products and your pre order money was just use to prototype etc. then you are really screwed. Pre ordering is pretty risky IMHO I never do it not even if they promise the moon and beyond

Fools and their money.

[RandyFolds]

If they did not make the pre order 500 bucks fiasco then there would not be any money to run away with in the first place.

Also, if they fail to deliver the products and your pre order money was just use to prototype etc. then you are really screwed. Pre ordering is pretty risky IMHO I never do it not even if they promise the moon and beyond

Fools and their money.

I preordered Skyrim. First time I've ever pre-ordered anything. Steam better deliver, goddamnit.

[bulanula]

If they did not make the pre order 500 bucks fiasco then there would not be any money to run away with in the first place.

Also, if they fail to deliver the products and your pre order money was just use to prototype etc. then you are really screwed. Pre ordering is pretty risky IMHO I never do it not even if they promise the moon and beyond

Fools and their money.

I preordered Skyrim. First time I've ever pre-ordered anything. Steam better deliver, goddamnit.

Well I think we both agree the risk is different if pre-ordering from a reputable company like Steam which has delivered before in the past and is well known compared to the risk of pre-ordering from a random startup located in a restaurant that has not delivered anything but a couple of pretty pics yet etc. 

[DeathAndTaxes]

If they did not make the pre order 500 bucks fiasco then there would not be any money to run away with in the first place.

Also, if they fail to deliver the products and your pre order money was just use to prototype etc. then you are really screwed. Pre ordering is pretty risky IMHO I never do it not even if they promise the moon and beyond

Fools and their money.

I preordered Skyrim. First time I've ever pre-ordered anything. Steam better deliver, goddamnit.

Well I think we both agree the risk is different if pre-ordering from a reputable company like Steam which has delivered before in the past and is well known compared to the risk of pre-ordering from a random startup located in a restaurant that has not delivered anything but a couple of pretty pics yet etc. 

I think he was making a joke and likewise he isn't eternally concerned about exchange rate between bacon covered hotdogs and fiat currency.

[runeks]

Also, if they fail to deliver the products and your pre order money was just use to prototype etc. then you are really screwed. Pre ordering is pretty risky IMHO I never do it not even if they promise the moon and beyond

Have I misunderstood something or doesn't PayPal allow cancellation of payments within 60 days? I'm not saying this isn't a scam, I have no idea whether it's a scam, but as far as I know, you can cancel a payment when done via PayPal within 60 days. As far as I've understood, in case of PayPal, the burden of proof for the buyer is relatively small, while in the case of the seller it's heavier. I'd never sell anything while charging via PayPal, but buying seems pretty safe to me (based on the stories I've heard).

Have anyone had other experiences with PayPal?

[DeathAndTaxes]

Also, if they fail to deliver the products and your pre order money was just use to prototype etc. then you are really screwed. Pre ordering is pretty risky IMHO I never do it not even if they promise the moon and beyond

Have I misunderstood something or doesn't PayPal allow cancellation of payments within 60 days? I'm not saying this isn't a scam, I have no idea whether it's a scam, but as far as I know, you can cancel a payment when done via PayPal within 60 days. As far as I've understood, in case of PayPal, the burden of proof for the buyer is relatively small, while in the case of the seller it's heavier. I'd never sell anything while charging via PayPal, but buying seems pretty safe to me (based on the stories I've heard).

Have anyone had other experiences with PayPal?

Paypal policy is 45 days.  A CC usually allows 60 days but the standard scam is to promise shipping in 8 weeks, and then there is a slight "delay" but don't worry we will give you upgraded shipping in x days.  x days happens to be just past 60 days and when nothing arrives you have no recourse to a chargeback per your credit card agreement.

[punningclan]

Over at these:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=22426.640
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=9047.520

FPGA is used exclusively with the actual costs of the boards being designed somewhat equivalent. Mhash's are about a quarter of the Butterfly labs card though but wattage is similar, they do say they use a combination of ASIC and FPGA.
ASIC can handle loop unrolling while outsource the hashing to the fpga? The open source crew are trying to fit everything on to the FPGA and were running into real estate issues. For the price the ASIC would most likely have to be off the shelf though.
My bet is that they have a solution, but it will still take a year to pay for itself.
 

[DeathAndTaxes]

FPGA is used exclusively with the actual costs of the boards being designed somewhat equivalent. Mhash's are about a quarter of the Butterfly labs card though but wattage is similar, they do say they use a combination of ASIC and FPGA.

The wattage is not "similar".  Other FPGA designs are getting about 20MH/W not 50MH/W. 250% improvement in electrical efficiency is massive.

[Inaba]

So here is the first BFL Escrow address: 1CzKrTnncqVuviR9iyBBL5KBJkHUtv4Sjp

If anyone takes an initial wager, let me know how much you are sending.  If someone else wants to bet against it, I will generate a new address for that.

[P4man]

My bet was rejected because "scam" is apparently a curse word or something  
But someone else started a bet, which should be a lot safer for the naysayers than I what I was willing to bet, since it includes the 8 week deadline and no margin on the specs. Anyone thinking this is a scam can make a few bitcoins by betting this:

http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=141

Goat, Im sure you will put 100 or more BTCs in there, there is no way you could lose that bet.

[bulanula]

FPGA is used exclusively with the actual costs of the boards being designed somewhat equivalent. Mhash's are about a quarter of the Butterfly labs card though but wattage is similar, they do say they use a combination of ASIC and FPGA.

The wattage is not "similar".  Other FPGA designs are getting about 20MH/W not 50MH/W. 250% improvement in electrical efficiency is massive.

Yeah, this is why I am so shocked that people think this can work out. The are stated outputs that are off the wall.
Assuming this is not just an outright scam this guy is off somewhere with his math.

If this guy can deliver he will be a multimillionaire within a year as this new technology could be used in a number of fields. This guy also would odds are be hired by IBM, the NSA or something like that.

I do not think people understand how revolutionary this product would be if it works and costs as stated.

I am willing to put my money where my mouth is unlike BF Labs.

How do you know they are not already working for the CIA ?

This is just impossible IMHO. To get 1 GH/s with just 2 ASICs or FPGAs or whatever is just too damn improbable right now. Not even a damn 6990 gets that with 2 GPUs on it etc. Keep dreaming BFL. IMHO if anyone buys into this scam then they damn right deserve to be scammed like there is no tomorrow. $50 000 easy money for you BFL ? What will happen with this capital if your project fails and you realise you used up all the money on a prototype that does not work in the end ? Hey, I am not saying that this is a scam but anything can happen right ?

[JonHind]

And after all these pages, they still haven't given any information that can identify anyone from the company? That smells like 100% scam to me. If I were a designer of a new amazing device, I would be proud of my invention.

Seriously, if anyone pre-orders one of these based on the information given to date, then please don't be surprised if you lose your money. I'd seriously reverse the charges now. You can always order them at some point in the future.