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Author Topic: [ANN] [HVC] Heavycoin - Ultra-secure, Decentralized Block Reward Voting, Fast  (Read 541741 times)
adolf512
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May 24, 2014, 08:23:25 AM
Last edit: May 24, 2014, 08:39:10 AM by adolf512
 #5281

This coin is very interesting. proof of work votings can make a coin both less and more secure depending on how much the blok reward is allowed to decrease during a certain time http://odincoin.boards.net/post/60/thread

I do not really like that there is a roof for how many coins that can be created, this will make the coin less secure in the long run http://odincoin.boards.net/post/2

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cayars
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May 24, 2014, 11:51:55 AM
 #5282

Can someone explain this to me please about the limit phase:

HVC site says "The second phase (Limit) allows a maximum vote of 1024 HVC for the first 59,876 blocks, but 8 HVC for the last ~3,600 blocks so it can transition into to the last phase (Sustain)."
Then it says Limit phase will be "63,476 blocks" and also "56 days (fixed)".
Now at one block every 2 minutes there are 720 blocks per day, or in 56 days there are 40,320.

So how can there be "63,476 blocks" in 56 days and how can the voting limit of 8 after the "first 59,876 blocks" kick in then?

Or is this "first 59,876 blocks" calculated from the start of the coin, not the start of the limit phase? Which would be even more confusing as we are at block height 55,133 at the time of writing this, so we'll be at block height 59,876 in less than a week, significantly before the mint phase ends.
Yes, I've brought this up before also that the math doesn't work.  I was ignored and never got a response back on this.
So I'm still confused as to the length of the limit phase.  Is it 56 days (fixed) as the website says or is it 88.1 days as the math would indicate:
63,476 blocks / 30 (blocks per hour) / 24 (hours per day) = 88.16 days

Quote
So will the voting limit be dropped to 8 within a week, even while we are in mint phase?
Or will it kick in right at the beginning of limit phase?
Or will it not kick in during the whole 56 days limit phase...?
Or will the time per block change in limit phase so that actually "63,476 blocks" can be generated within 56 days?

It's my understanding that you can vote up to 1024 during the mint and limit phase clear up to the last 3600 blocks of the limit phase.  You must change your vote to 8 or under for the last 3600 blocks of limit phase which are used for calculations going into sustain phase.

It's kind of fun to play "what if" with the numbers to see what different votes will do to the overall outcome.  However, as you too have pointed out the blocks don't match the days in the limit phase.  I can I think is that the limit phase is either just a couple days short of 2 months (56) or just short of 3 months (88). It really doesn't matter but it would be nice to know which is going to be used. Smiley

Carlo

PS I've just assumed the limit phase is going to be 40,320 blocks total (56 days) and not 63,476.
mumbly
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May 24, 2014, 12:03:15 PM
 #5283

Hey guys,

Hope you're all doing well - some quick responses for everyone:

Mumbly, can you confirm if anyone (without say who or how many) has gotten the correct answer yet?

Happy to man, while also being as tactful as possible...

I think we have a winner - I haven't measured the exact distance to confirm they're within range, but knowing the long/lat that we're looking for, I'm seeing a few people who are definitely in the correct neighborhood.


With this competition - I'm really keen to hear what everyone here thinks about it - is a week too long?

NeuroticFish suggested allowing daily guesses, which I really like, but I've got to make sure that running it this way won't overload the person on my side compiling all of the guesses.


@Wenzel745 - I hear you man, I removed that re-tweet earlier today. I thought the bot was removed, checking with the guys to make sure this is the case - I can't stand that thing either.


@ p1nky & cayars - Interesting point, I'm going to look at these numbers also.

Cheers,
M
cayars
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May 24, 2014, 12:54:05 PM
 #5284

Mumbly,

A week can seem a little long in Crypto world but it allows for lots of clues.  If you plan on running a few of these (I liked it) then you could try different formats.

Example, 3 days with say 10 clues.  After the first clue the rest could come at "random" times. Could be 6 in the first day, 3 in the 2nd and 1 last day, ect

Makes people have to check the forum often. Smiley

If you do longer days then maybe allowing one vote per day is good.  If only 3 days then keep it one total vote only.

Could also just take top 3 votes for places 1 to 3 and then start another after that. Could just do 3K, 2K, 1K as prizes, etc...

All kinds of ways to do it.  Try experimenting a bit.

Concerning Limit phase:
56 days * 24 hours * 30 (blocks per hour) = 40,320 blocks but website http://heavycoin.github.io/about.html#decentralised-voting says 63,476 blocks.  If that page is changed to 40,320 it all makes sense.
However, would be a very good idea to match the website up to what the code is doing. Smiley

Doesn't matter one way or the other but would be good to have it clarified so the math works.
p1nky
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May 24, 2014, 01:14:56 PM
 #5285

I had a look at the source code a bit.

First of all the mint phase apparently is not 45,000,000 coins as the site says but 53,000,000. This is what the wallet says as "Next" and what the source code says also

static const int64 PHASE1_MONEY = 53000000; // 45,000,000 (min 30D, max 171Y)
static const int64 PHASE2_BLOCKS = 63476 - nBlockRewardVoteSpan - 1; // 44D (min 0, max 64,948,224)

The limit phase seems to be defined in blocks, calculated from the block height of phase 1 + PHASE2_BLOCKS (as the upper block height limit for the limit phase).

So to me it seems this 1024 voting madness will continue to go on for more than 100 days (around 20 days left to reach 53m coins and then more than 80 days until we're at the last 3600 blocks of limit phase).
This also means more than 50m additional coins will be generated before the voting is limited to 8 Sad

IMHO something must be done in the code or the coin will be dead before the voting limit kicks in.

If the minting phase money supply apparently has been changed from the original 45m to 53m then certainly it must be possible to change this back to the 45m it was supposed to be in the first place, and also to make additional steps for the limit phase.

I suggest going back to the original communicated 56 days limit phase = 8 weeks = 40,320 blocks and drop the voting limit by 128 every week (5,040 blocks):
week 1   896
week 2   768
week 3   640
week 4   512
week 5   384
week 6   256
week 7   128
week 8   8

IMHO the coin can't survive 100 more days of 1024 voting, and then suddenly dropping to 8.
Also this reflects the spirit of what was in mind for the limit phase, having a graduation phase into the sustain phase.

The same as markets also a democracy needs regulations and adjustments, it doesn't mean the end of democracy.
We need a democracy, not a demo-crazy.
mumbly
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May 24, 2014, 01:33:35 PM
 #5286

@cayars - all good ideas man, I'll take them on board. I agree changing the frequency of clues and playing with different time periods will help me figure out the best format, and will keep everyone on their toes a little.

I don't have anything to add to the conversation about the coin phases for now, but I'm following with interest.

Cheers,
M
p1nky
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May 24, 2014, 01:51:25 PM
 #5287

I don't have anything to add to the conversation about the coin phases for now, but I'm following with interest.

Well can you check with the developer why the website and also the comment in the code says 45m coins for mint phase but the actual the code says 53m please?
And why the site says 56 days for limit phase, when actually according to the number of blocks for the limit phase it's more than 88?

We really need to go into limit phase soon as it was originally intended and the limit phase really needs to limit the number of new coins in some way, and not keep things as they are up until to the last 5 days of the limit phase.
HVC_Comps
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May 24, 2014, 01:52:30 PM
 #5288

Ok - final clue!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

This site is located within the continent of Africa

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks to everyone who has taken part so far - this competition will close 1pm, 26 May, Bitcointalk server time

I hope you guys have enjoyed this comp, as cayars has done above, any feedback is very welcome.

I'll be hosting the next one, but after that I thought it would be fun to get some guest hosts for these competitions. I'm still figuring out the logistics, but if you're interested in hosting one of these comps, PM me.

Cheers,
M
cayars
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May 24, 2014, 01:59:38 PM
 #5289

I was just going to go hunting through the source but guess I don't need to now as p1nky has already done it.

This is not good, but not the end of the world either. Let's assume there is no code change.

We would end up with 53,000,000 coins during mint.
Limit phase 63,476 blocks * 687 (need to double check average vote) = 43,608,012 coins
96,608,012 total coins from mint and limit phase. Sustain has 10,000,576 coins
106,608,588 total coins

Sustain should not change and would have a max of 8 coins per block.

So assuming you read the source code correct and my average vote of 687 is correct above we just got some "instant inflation".

We gained 8,000,000 coins during Mint Phase

63,476 blocks - 40,320 (56 days of blocks) = 23,156 extra blocks in Limit Phase
23,156 * 687 = 15,908,172 extra Limit Phase Coins

Total Inflation of 23,908,172 coins never anticipated until today's conversation (assuming all math is correct).
That's a sizable amount of the total coins.

Could somebody do a double/triple check of the math above?
mumbly
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May 24, 2014, 02:11:39 PM
 #5290

I don't have anything to add to the conversation about the coin phases for now, but I'm following with interest.

Well can you check with the developer why the website and also the comment in the code says 45m coins for mint phase but the actual the code says 53m please?
And why the site says 56 days for limit phase, when actually according to the number of blocks for the limit phase it's more than 88?

We really need to go into limit phase soon as it was originally intended and the limit phase really needs to limit the number of new coins in some way, and not keep things as they are up until to the last 5 days of the limit phase.

Hey man,

For sure, that's already the next thing on my to-do list.

I don't like to post when I ask the devs on the side to take a look at a post. I think I've done this once and Keccak had already responded by the time I sent him a message.

They are watching the forum, so I'm more a fail safe then the person to tell them when there's a conversation where we could use their input.

Cheers,
M

p1nky
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May 24, 2014, 02:18:10 PM
 #5291

But it's another 23m coins on top of a coin that has far too much inflation already.

And it most probably means another 100+ days of the coin getting devalued more and more with transaction volumes of 1/3,000th of DarkCoin and others. I'm sorry, I have been mining HVC since the start and holding them still, but I don't see the coin surving 100+ more days of what has been going on in the last few weeks.

I know a few ppl investing in HVC lately in expectation of this 1024 vote thing ending soon and I don't see this ending well if over the next 3 months we're gonna see another 50+m coins dumped onto the market.
That's more coins generated over the next 3 months than have been minted so far since the beginning, and the coin is already in an almost coma like state!

Actually there are people voting 1024 currently in order to get over the minting phase as soon as possible. But as it looks this minting phase de facto will go on for 100+ more days, no matter what they do. And I don't see this raising confidence in the coin.

Therefore it is my strong believe that actions from the developer have to take place to save this coin and turn it around and make the limit phase an actual limit phase and not keep the limit phase a renamed minting phase for all but the last 5 days.
cayars
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May 24, 2014, 02:21:43 PM
 #5292

There's an upside if you are a miner.

The IPO just got smaller.  Grin
incin
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May 24, 2014, 02:23:24 PM
Last edit: May 24, 2014, 02:35:44 PM by incin
 #5293

The 8 million difference is the IPO/Premine is it not? See original pre-ann...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470391.0

cayars
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May 24, 2014, 02:37:33 PM
 #5294

The 8 million difference is the IPO/Premine is it not?

The IPO/Premine was 8,000,000 coins total. Hmmm,  need to check that.

But still doesn't address the limit phase block difference.
incin
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May 24, 2014, 02:41:45 PM
Last edit: May 24, 2014, 03:15:05 PM by incin
 #5295

The 8 million difference is the IPO/Premine is it not?

The IPO/Premine was 8,000,000 coins total. Hmmm,  need to check that.

But still doesn't address the limit phase block difference.

Yeah, with 45 mil in the Mint phase and just over 10 mil in the sustain phase and a minimum supply of 63 mil (if 0 vote through limit phase) leaves 8 mil for IPO/Bounties/Developement ect. I am also curious as to the block count issue brought up as that doesn't add up.

IPO/Premine (Fixed) = 8,000,000
Mint (Fixed) = 45,000,000
Limit (max vote) = ( 59,876 * 1024 ) + ( 3600 * 8 ) = ( 61,313,024 + 28800 ) = 61,341,824
Sustain (Fixed) = 10,000,576

Max Total Supply = 124,342,400

For limit phase either....
block count is off,
the days are off,
or the block time is off.

Based on 56 days with 2 min block time...
3600 * 8 = 28,800
36720 * 1024 = 37,601,280
Total Limit = 37,630,080
Total Supply = 100,630,656

cayars
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May 24, 2014, 03:36:12 PM
 #5296

I don't think the vote count during the last 3600 blocks of Limit phase have any affect on that phase at all but is used to "setup" the sustain phase.
cayars
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May 24, 2014, 03:42:14 PM
 #5297

static const int64 PHASE1_MONEY = 53000000; // 45,000,000 (min 30D, max 171Y)
static const int64 PHASE2_BLOCKS = 63476 - nBlockRewardVoteSpan - 1; // 44D (min 0, max 64,948,224)


Just curious, but what is nBlockRewardVoteSpan set to any ideas?
If it happens to be 23,155 then that would be correct.
incin
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May 24, 2014, 04:03:28 PM
 #5298

Ok i'll leave this to the code crackers. All i can do is continue to vote 0 at zhpool.  Grin

cayars
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May 24, 2014, 04:39:56 PM
 #5299

Ok i'll leave this to the code crackers. All i can do is continue to vote 0 at zhpool.  Grin

Yea we really just need keccek512 to give us a quick post explaining it.
auctioneeeeer
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May 25, 2014, 03:11:42 PM
 #5300


Repost

@keccak512

Is there any chance DarkSend or CryptoNote could be implemented in Heavycoin?   Undecided

If Yes...  you need to drop this to the crypto community QUICK!!!   Wink

...just let us know so that we pull our 0.0001 HVC/BTC Asks first...

^^ this
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