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Author Topic: [ANN] [HVC] Heavycoin - Ultra-secure, Decentralized Block Reward Voting, Fast  (Read 539602 times)
eightspaces
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April 09, 2014, 12:07:50 PM
 #4401

hello keccak512 nomisugi
u have 170 btc yet u dont update the coin with the openssl fix
i am disappointed hard
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April 09, 2014, 12:24:33 PM
 #4402

funny how everyones panicking  now that all alts are in the toilet. I swear some of you dont have the constitution for this unless is continually on the up and up. I'm just enjoying the train ride, in the coming months the weak will be separated from the chaf. I'm holding my HVC like a boss!

It's not a matter of panicking cause coins are in the toilet right now.  That's a cycle that will rebound in time. I think many people planned on holding HVC until that time when we have a rebound.  However, the coin has to be around, doing well and thriving to get a good return on your mining investment and HVC you have been holding.

Hence my posts.  There is time to fix some of the issues I've described if they get recognized for what they are (issues needing a fix).  The 3 phases need to get the boot as they just don't work.  The voting is/was a nice concept if implemented better.  This could still be useful but the block rewards can't be allowed to just substantially drop at any given time. It needs to gently/smoothly adjust over a proper period to allow the coin to build value. To stay minable, the coins needs to grow in value to offset the ever lowering block reward.  It's a trade off.

Trying to make a change like this now, would be a mess, but would/could allow it to survive. Otherwise it's dead shortly IMHO.

Carlo
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April 09, 2014, 12:46:21 PM
Last edit: April 09, 2014, 12:56:38 PM by jakiman
 #4403

But even assuming straight low votes and we end up at only 4.7 years for sustain phase.  WHO IS GOING TO MINE THIS?  This coin will go from 550 (give or take) HVC per block to 5 HVC per block (give or take). That's over a hundred fold decrease in mining profit overnight.  The coin commits suicide IMHO as soon as that happens.

Umm, you do realize that people aren't just going to sit around and keep selling at the low price when they know that it will suddenly become 50-100 times harder to mine? Price isn't going to stay the same as now and then BAM! instantly it becomes 5 coins per day instead of 500 coins per day of mining. That will NOT happen unless everyone is dumb. Early adopters won't just dump the coin at the current super low price. Also the new miners or buyers won't even be able to dream of buying it at the current low price. Also, it's not going to be an instantaneous overnight change like you say anyways to the people who are mining & trading.

Quote
I'm not a hater, but don't see a bright future or any future for that matter for HVC at current without a core change to fix this major problem as I see it.

You see a major problem. But many others do not. So who is right? Still you?
There are about 100 coins out there which I do not see a bright future for.
Heck, I don't even know if Bitcoin or Litecoin has a bright future. I wish I knew...

Quote
Yes, BTC is down and so are other alt coins.  Really doesn't play into my thoughts much at all about this coins implementation.  Really all that does is change the line of profitability a bit as I pointed out in the first "doom/gloom" message written yesterday where the 4 rig AMD is making less than 30 cents a day right now.  But will that same person continue to pay $2.75 in electric costs per day to earn back 5 HVC per block?

There you go again. 4 card 280x rig currently mines about 200 Heavycoins right now. You are "assuming" that price will remain the same.
When the time gets closer to the sustain phase, you won't be able to buy 200 HVC for $2.75. Or do you know for sure that you will be?
Once you accept that you have no clue about the future, then you will understand that what you are saying is ALL speculation.

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April 09, 2014, 12:58:24 PM
 #4404

to the moon

Bitnet. VkufgUMzowfCZ895GbEsYEnt8vJ2FtEPCF
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April 09, 2014, 01:14:04 PM
 #4405

Hey guys, are we going to try this? BlackCoin has been just listed: https://www.coinkite.com/faq/alts. We might fulfill the conditions but I'm not sure
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April 09, 2014, 01:22:59 PM
 #4406

People hold since they can't really sell.

Any idea of relaunch ?
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April 09, 2014, 01:24:28 PM
 #4407

people need to get over the vote thing its not going to change embrace it .. sell or hold it if you think the coin has a future
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April 09, 2014, 01:27:14 PM
 #4408

Downtrend is only due to BTC being down. Most don't realize that. BTC is rated against the dollar or euro.  But ALTs are rated against BTC. It's a compound effect. So when BTC falls 20%, ALTs should remain locked  or fixed at the price they are at compared to BTC, but they fall too. So when btc is down is when you should buy the ALTs... Because your leverage is so much stronger when BTc rebounds which it will. I don't think most people get that.
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April 09, 2014, 01:29:17 PM
 #4409

Downtrend is only due to BTC being down. Most don't realize that. BTC is rated against the dollar or euro.  But ALTs are rated against BTC. It's a compound effect. So when BTC falls 20%, ALTs should remain locked  or fixed at the price they are at compared to BTC, but they fall too. So when btc is down is when you should buy the ALTs... Because your leverage is so much stronger when BTc rebounds which it will. I don't think most people get that.

The only question is which ALTs are good to buy, because it seems too bad with most of the ALTs these days apart from some exceptions which HVC isn't.
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April 09, 2014, 01:32:56 PM
 #4410

But even assuming straight low votes and we end up at only 4.7 years for sustain phase.  WHO IS GOING TO MINE THIS?  This coin will go from 550 (give or take) HVC per block to 5 HVC per block (give or take). That's over a hundred fold decrease in mining profit overnight.  The coin commits suicide IMHO as soon as that happens.

Umm, you do realize that people aren't just going to sit around and keep selling at the low price when they know that it will suddenly become 50-100 times harder to mine? Price isn't going to stay the same as now and then BAM! instantly it becomes 5 coins per day instead of 500 coins per day of mining. That will NOT happen unless everyone is dumb. Early adopters won't just dump the coin at the current super low price. Also the new miners or buyers won't even be able to dream of buying it at the current low price. Also, it's not going to be an instantaneous overnight change like you say anyways to the people who are mining & trading.
You do realize there has to be a market right? You also realize there has to be a solid set of nodes to process the block chain correct?  AHH but this is EXACTLY what will happen.  During the limit phase we'll be getting around 550ish coins per block.  But BEST CASE during sustain phase is 8 per block but more like 5 based on voting.  So that is an overnight transition from 550ish to 5ish.  Remember this IS NOT a gradual shift. Limit phase is 56 days.  When it ends, it ends.  One day you make 550 per block and the next day you make 5 per block.  Most if not all miners will move to a new coin. The network will almost collapse in a day/week period. Hash rates will drop DRASTICALLY over a very quick period of time.  That then causes security issues galore. A 51% attack among others could be pulled off by one miner (not even needing a pool) if they wanted.

Your premise is that somehow the value of the coin will "magically" become more valuable since the mining ability will be cut by 100 or more.  Sorry, but this isn't going to happen. Anyone on the outside looking to invest is going to see the coin doesn't have a future by it's very design. Who or why would someone invest in this coin if it's already 90% mined in a few short months and had super high inflation and also had a 5% or so IPO "pre-mine" and another 1-2% premine on top of that?

[quote
Quote
I'm not a hater, but don't see a bright future or any future for that matter for HVC at current without a core change to fix this major problem as I see it.

You see a major problem. But many others do not. So who is right? Still you?
[/quote]
I want to be wrong. I want ANYONE to give a scenario that shows how HVC survives this transition from limit to sustain phase with it's current deployment schedule.  Until someone can show/prove I'm wrong I'll have to assume I'm right. Smiley  You and everyone else of course can decide for yourself.
Quote
There are about 100 coins out there which I do not see a bright future for.
Heck, I don't even know if Bitcoin or Litecoin has a bright future. I wish I knew...

Quote
Yes, BTC is down and so are other alt coins.  Really doesn't play into my thoughts much at all about this coins implementation.  Really all that does is change the line of profitability a bit as I pointed out in the first "doom/gloom" message written yesterday where the 4 rig AMD is making less than 30 cents a day right now.  But will that same person continue to pay $2.75 in electric costs per day to earn back 5 HVC per block?

There you go again. 4 card 280x rig currently mines about 200 Heavycoins right now. You are "assuming" that price will remain the same.
When the time gets closer to the sustain phase, you won't be able to buy 200 HVC for $2.75. Or do you know for sure that you will be?
Once you accept that you have no clue about the future, then you will understand that what you are saying is ALL speculation.


Yes but the value of what you mine is all that matters right now to most miners.  If another coin is more profitable to mine they will mine it.  If they see value in HVC long term they can dump the currently mined coin to purchase HVC.  They would be dumb not to do that actually.  But that assumes HVC does have a future and will gain in value.

I don't call it speculation at all.  It's just math. Just run the numbers yourself through the different phases.  Do best, average and worst case votes to arrive at the numbers.  I'm assuming best case and it still doesn't work "for me".

So I'm not doing any speculation really.  I'll give you the flip side and say you are the one who is speculating the coin will survive as it will need to nearly become 100 times more valuable very quickly to counter the sudden loss in mining profit or all hell breaks loose and the network collapses.

I really don't see how this is difficult to grasp.

Carlo
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April 09, 2014, 01:38:33 PM
 #4411

Could the devs specifically address the problem in the bottom section of the previous post I just made?

How does the coin survive this transition of limit to sustain?

Carlo
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April 09, 2014, 01:39:47 PM
 #4412

How do you plan on addressing what I called the "suicide" phase?

We don't plan to address it because we do not share your doomsday opinion.

Like it or not, the current mint rate is what has been voted for.  Also, we do not believe a steep decline in the block reward (if that happens) would necessarily be bad.  A low block reward could detract some miners, but an exhausted supply could also put upward pressure on the price, which would serve to attract miners.  No one can predict the future.  There are some very successful altcoins, most notably Quark, that have undergone sharp drops in mining reward.  Our view is that this factor alone does not determine the future of a coin.  However, miners are free to adjust their votes according to their beliefs.

Wrt. temporal retargeting we conducted large-scale tests and found that it works very well.  We had a look at the timewarp exploit and fix.  As far as we know time-warp does not impact Heavycoin.  We use completely different code in this section.  This does not mean that there could not be an exploit one day, but if there were, it's not the end of the world because software can be updated and further improved.
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April 09, 2014, 02:03:39 PM
 #4413

hello keccak512 nomisugi
u have 170 btc yet u dont update the coin with the openssl fix
i am disappointed hard

The issue mostly applies to bitcoin-0.9.0, especially if you've used the payment protocol.

With Heavycoin you are vulnerable only if you set the rpcssl command-line option.  If it is not set, then no immediate action is required.  Otherwise, if you set rpcssl and if an attacker could have possibly communicated with the RPC port, then you should consider your wallet to be compromised.

Regardless, we will announce new builds soon.
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April 09, 2014, 02:16:54 PM
 #4414

How do you plan on addressing what I called the "suicide" phase?

We don't plan to address it because we do not share your doomsday opinion.
So you don't agree with the math I put forward?  Then please debunk the math.
Quote
Like it or not, the current mint rate is what has been voted for.  Also, we do not believe a steep decline in the block reward (if that happens) would necessarily be bad.  A low block reward could detract some miners, but an exhausted supply could also put upward pressure on the price, which would serve to attract miners.  No one can predict the future.  There are some very successful altcoins, most notably Quark, that have undergone sharp drops in mining reward.  Our view is that this factor alone does not determine the future of a coin.  However, miners are free to adjust their votes according to their beliefs.

My point is the vote really has little to do with anything.  It's an "illusion" of control.  No matter what the vote is, the limit to sustain phrase changes so drastically in block rewards that it an of itself is a major problem.

You say "A low block reward could detract some miners". I say almost ALL miners unless the value of the coin magically jumps accordingly by 100 fold or so.  

You really think an exhausted supply will put upward pressure on the price and attract more miners?  Really?  If a combination of the value of the coin at current time multiplied by the block reward isn't profitable enough to get miners to switch over to HVC then how will HVC attract more miners? It will take around a hundred fold increase in value of coin to make up this difference to attract miners.

So you are essentially banking the life of the coin on these premises expressed above and don't see the possibility network nodes collapsing and hash rates dropping to the point of causing security issues which will further devalue the coin?
Quote
Wrt. temporal retargeting we conducted large-scale tests and found that it works very well.  We had a look at the timewarp exploit and fix.  As far as we know time-warp does not impact Heavycoin.  We use completely different code in this section.  This does not mean that there could not be an exploit one day, but if there were, it's not the end of the world because software can be updated and further improved.

Good to know on the temporal retargeting.  Thank you for taking the time to explain that.

If you don't want to discuss the issues in a logical manner, then I guess we will find out in a couple of months who is correct.

I surely wish you all the best regardless of any "tone" in any of my posts.

Carlo
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April 09, 2014, 02:24:45 PM
 #4415

How do you plan on addressing what I called the "suicide" phase?

We don't plan to address it because we do not share your doomsday opinion.
So you don't agree with the math I put forward?  Then please debunk the math.
Quote
Like it or not, the current mint rate is what has been voted for.  Also, we do not believe a steep decline in the block reward (if that happens) would necessarily be bad.  A low block reward could detract some miners, but an exhausted supply could also put upward pressure on the price, which would serve to attract miners.  No one can predict the future.  There are some very successful altcoins, most notably Quark, that have undergone sharp drops in mining reward.  Our view is that this factor alone does not determine the future of a coin.  However, miners are free to adjust their votes according to their beliefs.

My point is the vote really has little to do with anything.  It's an "illusion" of control.  No matter what the vote is, the limit to sustain phrase changes so drastically in block rewards that it an of itself is a major problem.

You say "A low block reward could detract some miners". I say almost ALL miners unless the value of the coin magically jumps accordingly by 100 fold or so.  

You really think an exhausted supply will put upward pressure on the price and attract more miners?  Really?  If a combination of the value of the coin at current time multiplied by the block reward isn't profitable enough to get miners to switch over to HVC then how will HVC attract more miners? It will take around a hundred fold increase in value of coin to make up this difference to attract miners.

So you are essentially banking the life of the coin on these premises expressed above and don't see the possibility network nodes collapsing and hash rates dropping to the point of causing security issues which will further devalue the coin?
Quote
Wrt. temporal retargeting we conducted large-scale tests and found that it works very well.  We had a look at the timewarp exploit and fix.  As far as we know time-warp does not impact Heavycoin.  We use completely different code in this section.  This does not mean that there could not be an exploit one day, but if there were, it's not the end of the world because software can be updated and further improved.

Good to know on the temporal retargeting.  Thank you for taking the time to explain that.

If you don't want to discuss the issues in a logical manner, then I guess we will find out in a couple of months who is correct.

I surely wish you all the best regardless of any "tone" in any of my posts.

Carlo


Thanks for wishing us all the best mate but it seems to be a difference of opinion here, like Keccak I do not share your opinions of the coin being dead in a couple of months. You know changes will not be implemented the way you would like so maybe it is best if you stopped posting as your negativity serves no purpose.
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April 09, 2014, 03:01:20 PM
 #4416

Thanks for wishing us all the best mate but it seems to be a difference of opinion here, like Keccak I do not share your opinions of the coin being dead in a couple of months. You know changes will not be implemented the way you would like so maybe it is best if you stopped posting as your negativity serves no purpose.

I wouldn't call it negativity per say, but questioning things or trying to engage a logical discussion of "potential issues" is not only smart but healthy IMHO.  Maybe the tone of my messages didn't come off correctly and that is my fault.

But anyone that is going to vette this coin is most likely going to ask the same questions or have the same observations, I put forward and is going to want to understand how the transition of limit to sustain is going to work in the real world and is going to want to understand the logic behind this sudden block reward drop from the devs. They will also want to know how the HVC network of nodes will react and what the outcome will be short term as this transition takes place.  I believe you are 100% correct that no changes will be made, and that in the end I guess is all the information I need to know for my own vetting purposes.

Carlo
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April 09, 2014, 03:10:07 PM
 #4417

How do you plan on addressing what I called the "suicide" phase?

We don't plan to address it because we do not share your doomsday opinion.

Like it or not, the current mint rate is what has been voted for.  Also, we do not believe a steep decline in the block reward (if that happens) would necessarily be bad.  A low block reward could detract some miners, but an exhausted supply could also put upward pressure on the price, which would serve to attract miners.  No one can predict the future.  There are some very successful altcoins, most notably Quark, that have undergone sharp drops in mining reward.  Our view is that this factor alone does not determine the future of a coin.  However, miners are free to adjust their votes according to their beliefs.

Wrt. temporal retargeting we conducted large-scale tests and found that it works very well.  We had a look at the timewarp exploit and fix.  As far as we know time-warp does not impact Heavycoin.  We use completely different code in this section.  This does not mean that there could not be an exploit one day, but if there were, it's not the end of the world because software can be updated and further improved.
Your "exhausted supplu" will be with 90% off coins mined just 4-5 months since lunch..i dont see who is that exhausted supplu ..you missing biggest oportunitu for alt coin and that is when great army of GPY miners redirect from litecoin..coin that atract that miners will be biggest alt coin...there are now gpy worth tens of milions of $ that are mining..coin that will have them will have huge invesments ..but this coin even it ahs most gpy friendly alg going for "we dont need miners" and security will be 0

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Wenzel745
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April 09, 2014, 03:25:08 PM
 #4418

How do you plan on addressing what I called the "suicide" phase?

We don't plan to address it because we do not share your doomsday opinion.

Like it or not, the current mint rate is what has been voted for.  Also, we do not believe a steep decline in the block reward (if that happens) would necessarily be bad.  A low block reward could detract some miners, but an exhausted supply could also put upward pressure on the price, which would serve to attract miners.  No one can predict the future.  There are some very successful altcoins, most notably Quark, that have undergone sharp drops in mining reward.  Our view is that this factor alone does not determine the future of a coin.  However, miners are free to adjust their votes according to their beliefs.

Wrt. temporal retargeting we conducted large-scale tests and found that it works very well.  We had a look at the timewarp exploit and fix.  As far as we know time-warp does not impact Heavycoin.  We use completely different code in this section.  This does not mean that there could not be an exploit one day, but if there were, it's not the end of the world because software can be updated and further improved.
Your "exhausted supplu" will be with 90% off coins mined just 4-5 months since lunch..i dont see who is that exhausted supplu ..you missing biggest oportunitu for alt coin and that is when great army of GPY miners redirect from litecoin..coin that atract that miners will be biggest alt coin...there are now gpy worth tens of milions of $ that are mining..coin that will have them will have huge invesments ..but this coin even it ahs most gpy friendly alg going for "we dont need miners" and security will be 0

The problem with the flood of GPU miners is that if they start mining at 200-600 coins/block when it drops they'll likely leave. If we can get some wider adoption (and thanks Kekkak for working on articles!) and the price does rise I don't think we'll have a big issue. The only thing that concerns me is the "network theory" that all alts, or at least most, will die and only a few will survive. I think HVC does have what it takes technically, but we need a much bigger market cap.

BTC: 163pZXhATaWiuGAX9o9y6PuKCF8ipDWnJH
HVC: HJWFdgUJPEw1oiLckBFPBzs8vCTLokCGgd
Wenzel745
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April 09, 2014, 03:26:40 PM
 #4419

Also worth noting @Cayars Quark and Blackcoin both were mined 90% and 100% within a few weeks of launch and are doing fine. So if we can pull of the publicity I think that's how the sustain phase would actually work.

BTC: 163pZXhATaWiuGAX9o9y6PuKCF8ipDWnJH
HVC: HJWFdgUJPEw1oiLckBFPBzs8vCTLokCGgd
keccak512
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April 09, 2014, 03:32:26 PM
 #4420

.... want to understand how the transition of limit to sustain is going to work in the real world and is going to want to understand the logic behind this sudden block reward drop from the devs.

You keep saying there will be a sudden drop in the block reward as we enter into the sustain phase.   All of this is speculation, whereas in reality it depends entirely on decentralized voting.

Although the max vote will certainly drop in the sustain phase (a requirement for assuring the long-term duration of the sustain phase), no one knows whether decentralized voting will have already reduced the block reward during the remainder of the mint phase and limit phase.

It is entirely possible that the block reward vote will already be significantly lower than it is now before we draw near to the sustain phase, in which case there would not be a significant drop.  During the limit phase the block reward could be voted down to double digits, in which case there would not be a sudden drop.  Similarly it is also possible (again depending on voting) for the mint phase to continue on significantly longer.  For example, if miners dropped their vote from 512 to 256, this would double the time until the limit phase.

Finally, whether such a block reward drop (if it would happen) would be good or bad is debatable.  Overall, we will not interfere with the decentralized block reward voting.  It is completely up to the voting how long the mint phase lasts and how much HVC is mined in the limit phase.  That was our promise from the start and we will stick to it.
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