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Author Topic: [ANN] [HVC] Heavycoin - Ultra-secure, Decentralized Block Reward Voting, Fast  (Read 541741 times)
Kreativekrypto
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April 12, 2014, 08:05:56 PM
 #4601

Keep up the good work spreading the Thunderclap everyone, https://www.thunderclap.it/projects/10329-heavycoin-secure-e-currency?locale=en

and request Moolah here http://www.reddit.com/r/heavycoin/comments/21z8v4/moolah_is_the_future_of_digital_currency/



Heavycoin to the mooooon!
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cayars
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April 12, 2014, 08:22:09 PM
 #4602

Does anyone agree/disagree?

Although I have expressed many times that 1024 was/is too high of maximum vote allowed and have recommended that people vote low all along...  I have to admit/agree that it would not be a good idea for the devs to change the code at this point.  Plus...  HVC was doing fine even with the higher votes...  maybe this is all due to the general Bear Market...  nobody knows.

To be honest...  I am in support of efforts such as a multipool.  Marketing efforts would be welcomed too...  but they take too much time.



But what happens in a couple on months when the reward per block drops to at most 8 HVC regardless of voting? Who will still mine at that point?  How will the network survive? Even if there are still a few die-hard miners there will be massive security issues and the network won't be safe.  It's not going to be long before the masses figure this out and realize HVC has no future due to faulty design and decentralized voting. What happens to the value of any HVC at that point? IMHO, this can't be avoided at present without a core change.

If the math is correct above then even at a 50 (super unlikely) average vote the reward per block will drop by a factor of 10 on the 1st day sustain phase.  That is all but a death sentence, is it not?

Ideally the value of HVC would go up accordingly to offset the lower reward per blocks between now and sustain day, but there is going to be far to much uncertainty of the coin for this to happen. That only leaves two options does it not? Death or core change

If anyone can see any other options how this could play out where HVC comes out ok and survives without a change I'd love to hear your opinion how this could be.
akabane
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April 12, 2014, 09:30:19 PM
 #4603

Do not change anything in block reward voting, the point of a pseudo-democratic coin like heavycoin is to let the miners decide.
Changing the block reward will be like cheating to me.
I hate coin changing reward just to keep the value from decreasing. Let the market (and the miners for heavycoin) decides !

I am voting 1 myself since the beginning but I do not care that some people vote 1024.
They surely have a reason to do it and it should be respected.

The only things that will make the value grows up is hype and services.
gitm
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April 12, 2014, 09:44:09 PM
 #4604

Do not change anything in block reward voting, the point of a pseudo-democratic coin like heavycoin is to let the miners decide.
Changing the block reward will be like cheating to me.
I hate coin changing reward just to keep the value from decreasing. Let the market (and the miners for heavycoin) decides !

I am voting 1 myself since the beginning but I do not care that some people vote 1024.
They surely have a reason to do it and it should be respected.

The only things that will make the value grows up is hype and services.


+1

nothing needs to be changed here. 

Now we just need some merchants accepting HVC and we will be in business.
jakiman
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April 12, 2014, 10:40:42 PM
 #4605

Do not change anything in block reward voting, the point of a pseudo-democratic coin like heavycoin is to let the miners decide.
Changing the block reward will be like cheating to me.
I hate coin changing reward just to keep the value from decreasing. Let the market (and the miners for heavycoin) decides !

I am voting 1 myself since the beginning but I do not care that some people vote 1024.
They surely have a reason to do it and it should be respected.

The only things that will make the value grows up is hype and services.


+1

BUT, I also think than a high percentage of miners are voting 512 & 1024 as that's what was in the sample miner config.
We need to educate the miners more. We need zhpool to mass email all the miners on why voting lower is beneficial.

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April 12, 2014, 10:41:45 PM
 #4606

That being said above, 1GH should just update the files and call it a cgminer update ... with a standard vote set of 1 or 0
Wenzel745
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April 12, 2014, 11:08:32 PM
 #4607

For people looking to create a multipool (which, for the record, I do not agree with) here's what Faircoin is doing: http://fair-coin.info/multipool

They seem to be working with WafflePool to create a multipool system and then buying FC with the profits, distributing the profits to the faircoin addresses. Not sure what needs to be done for HVC to get that sort of deal. Might need to work something out with the Wafflepool admins.

BTC: 163pZXhATaWiuGAX9o9y6PuKCF8ipDWnJH
HVC: HJWFdgUJPEw1oiLckBFPBzs8vCTLokCGgd
Wenzel745
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April 12, 2014, 11:13:14 PM
 #4608

For people looking to create a multipool (which, for the record, I do not agree with) here's what Faircoin is doing: http://fair-coin.info/multipool

They seem to be working with WafflePool to create a multipool system and then buying FC with the profits, distributing the profits to the faircoin addresses. Not sure what needs to be done for HVC to get that sort of deal. Might need to work something out with the Wafflepool admins.

Actually, looks like they're just using a BTC wallet database sorta deal. Pretty simple to program actually. Worth nothing though, if the network drops too low, then someone with a hashrate like GPools could single handedly launch a 51% attack... So I recommend any multipool efforts change the method a bit so we redirect at least 25-50% of hashrate to HVC.

BTC: 163pZXhATaWiuGAX9o9y6PuKCF8ipDWnJH
HVC: HJWFdgUJPEw1oiLckBFPBzs8vCTLokCGgd
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April 12, 2014, 11:34:09 PM
 #4609

That being said above, 1GH should just update the files and call it a cgminer update ... with a standard vote set of 1 or 0

+1  Grin

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April 12, 2014, 11:37:38 PM
 #4610

BTW, did you all notice that the next estimated block reward has now dropped to 508?
I think 1GH changing the sample miner string is at least working to some extent.

Everyone! Start tweeting about using a lower vote count also.
We need to educate people. Tell what effect voting low can do.

incin
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April 13, 2014, 12:15:08 AM
 #4611

Since keccak512 has said he won't make any changes to the algorithms or timeline changes to the phases I just don't see how this can work out.

So I will repost what I did a few days earlier with the hopes that enough people will understand what I'm saying and put enough pressure on the DEVS that they will act or the coin is dead IMHO.

Mint Phase 45,000,000 coins (72 days to 25+ years depending on votes)
Limit Phase is fixed at 56 days and will award 63,476 blocks
Sustain Phase has 10,000,576 coins and will last from 4.7 years to 38+ years (depending on votes)

All of the above is from the website: http://heavycoin.github.io/about.html#decentralised-voting

Total Supply is said to be from 63,000,576 (12.69% premine) to 128,000,000 HVC (6.25% premine)

The math says 8,000,000 coins were premined in total.

If my understanding is correct:
During the limit phase if vote count was 1024 then 64,999,424 coins would be awarded. If vote count is 0 then 0 coins are awarded.
63,000,576 - 45,000,000 - 10,000,576 = 8,000,000 premined coins

We are currently at 544 average vote.  If this stays the same going into Limit phase then 63,476 blocks * 544 = 34,530,944 coins.
34,530,944 / 56 days / 24 hours per day / 30 blocks per hour =  856.42 block reward. This obviously will not work well dropping to a block reward of at most 8 HVC in the sustain phase.
This is a very poor transition because instead of the block reward going down to prepare for the sustain phase it jumped way up making it that much harder for the coin to survive entering the sustain phase.

If the vote is at 256 going into limit then: 63,476 blocks * 544 = 16,249,856 coins. / 56/24/30=403.02 block reward is still way to high.

If the vote is at 100 going into limit then: 63,476 blocks * 100 = 6,347,600 coins. / 56/24/30=157.43 block reward.

If the vote is at 50 going into limit then: 63,476 blocks * 50 = 3,173,800 coins. / 56/24/30=78.71 block reward.

If the vote is at 10 going into limit then: 63,476 blocks * 10 = 634,760 coins. / 56/24/30=15.74 block reward.

So as you can see EVEN with a vote count as low as 10 average, going into and staying in the limit phase, the block reward will still drop by more then half going into the limit phase.

In all honesty even with a GREAT COMMUNITY RALLY I don't see how we'll get the vote down any lower (on average) then 256 which is less then half what it is now.  That would have us going from over 400 HVC per block to at MOST 8 HVC in the sustain phase. This coin can't survive any type of drop like that when the sustain phase hits.  It just will NOT BE PROFITABLE in any manner to mine and the network will die and thus the coin will too.

Unfortunately at present there is no motivation to down vote for miners who don't have any type of decent stake.  They want more coins to sell/dump and don't care about long term value.

With the value of BTC at present and the exchange (HVC/BTC) half what it was a week or two something drastic HAS TO BE DONE as IT CAN NOT GET WORKED OUT BY THE COMMUNITY.

The decentralized voting was/is a terrible idea as implemented and will be the death of this coin. It was not thought out well and has conflicting outcomes on the phases.  It could have be useful if the phases were setup to give proper time for things to adjust (along with the market) to shift phases smoothly. Example flip the awarded coins between the mint and sustain phase.  Lower amount of coins upfront builds value.  Having 1/2 the coins available for sustain phase would have given miners an opportunity to mine.  Longer limit phase then 56 was/is still needed however to allow for a proper transition of the market and to allow the math of the voting to work in your favor instead of increasing reward which it presently does with HVC only making the transition to sustain that much harder.

This can only be fixed by the devs if it's not to late already with a core change.

Does anyone agree/disagree?

Carlo

BTW, is there going to be a new wallet release any time soon due to the OpenSSL vulnerability?


Do note:

Quote
The second phase (Limit) allows a maximum vote of 1024 HVC for the first 59,876 blocks, but 8 HVC for the last ~3,600 blocks so it can transition into to the last phase (Sustain).

I personally would rather see POS for phase 3 as I agree if hash drops significantly there could be potential malicious attacks. Keccak any comment on the network security during phase 3?

jakiman
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April 13, 2014, 12:23:51 AM
 #4612

Quote
The second phase (Limit) allows a maximum vote of 1024 HVC for the first 59,876 blocks, but 8 HVC for the last ~3,600 blocks so it can transition into to the last phase (Sustain).

I personally would rather see POS for phase 3 as I agree if hash drops significantly there could be potential malicious attacks. Keccak any comment on the network security during phase 3?

I agree that PoS definitely sounds better instead of 1-8 block reward mining for Phase 3.
Maybe something like 1-2% per year but with daily compound interest like Blackcoin etc.
Even less electricity requirement, no daily miner dumps, controlled inflation. Not bad IMO.

TheRealSteve
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April 13, 2014, 01:21:29 AM
 #4613

BTW, did you all notice that the next estimated block reward has now dropped to 508?
I think 1GH changing the sample miner string is at least working to some extent.
The votes displayed at zhpool are kind of interesting, too.  1, 512, 1024.. not much in between.
The defaults in zhpool's packages are 1024 (cgminer), 512 (ccminer, x86 and x64) and 512 (CPU - all of them)

Collegestudent
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April 13, 2014, 02:09:59 AM
 #4614

Anyone stupid enough to sell here goes LOL

http://i.imgur.com/1CRyO51.jpg

It will take 20BTCs to bring to 500Satoshis while it will only take 2BTCs to bring it to 4000Satoshis. think wisely and btw thanks for the cheap sells between 2000-2500. Just cause the dev doesnt talk doesnt mean he isnt working, ppl are busy you know.
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April 13, 2014, 03:33:01 AM
Last edit: April 13, 2014, 03:53:21 AM by jakiman
 #4615

Broke the 500 barrier! Maybe we can go down to 400 mark.


Gaman
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April 13, 2014, 04:39:38 AM
 #4616

I think people should vote for 1 HVC .... having 400-500+ hvc per block reward is too much.  This will cause HVC price to go down.

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cayars
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April 13, 2014, 09:04:43 AM
 #4617

Do note:

Quote
The second phase (Limit) allows a maximum vote of 1024 HVC for the first 59,876 blocks, but 8 HVC for the last ~3,600 blocks so it can transition into to the last phase (Sustain).

I personally would rather see POS for phase 3 as I agree if hash drops significantly there could be potential malicious attacks. Keccak any comment on the network security during phase 3?

Yep, for 51 days you can vote anything you want up to 1024 but during the last 5 days your vote has to be 8 or under.  I'm sure that's going to work well.

Hopefully we can get an update before then for CGMiner and CCMiner that will fix this automatically.  Maybe we could get a --sustainvote switch thrown in early that will allow both votes to be set now. The program would use the --vote setting up until the last 5 days and will switch to the -sustainvote switch at the correct block so all blocks are counted.  Otherwise we could see another drop in hash rate during these last 5 days as invalid votes (higher then Cool are used and they are thrown out.
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April 13, 2014, 09:19:14 AM
 #4618

Broke the 500 barrier! Maybe we can go down to 400 mark.



http://heavychain.info/reward

Next estimated reward at 506 for the moment with a current hash rate of 70.23GH.

About 1/4 mined (based on probable final coin count) so there is limited time.  We just need to get the votes way down while the value of HTC goes up accordingly.

AND/OR

A substantial set of the community has to form something of a "pack" to mine no matter what the value or reward is, not worrying about short/mid term value.  If you/we can force ourselves to look minimal 6 months to a year out then that can give us time for HVC to increase value from marketing and exposure to make up for what will be minimal returns short term due to dropping reward counts.  Everyone just has to act like they have a large stake!  Contrary to normal mining operations.
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April 13, 2014, 11:35:49 AM
 #4619

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=563790.0

5 days and clock is still ticking.
TheRealSteve
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April 13, 2014, 11:42:20 AM
Last edit: April 13, 2014, 02:16:36 PM by TheRealSteve
 #4620

Pool hash rates and miners
pool
rate (Mh/s)*
delta***
% of network
miners**
  rate/miner
fee (%)
payout
http://hvc.1gh.com/
34,875.04
-2,231.16
58.66
1
RBPPS
http://heavycoin.zhpool.com/
20,705.30
-7,145.40
34.83
380.8
54.37
1
PPLNS
http://heavycoin.miningpoolhub.com/
7,807.72
232.91
13.13
47.8
163.34
1
PROP
http://hvc.nonce-pool.com/
633.96
121.88
1.07
39
16.26
1
PPLNS
https://heavycoinpool.com/
0.23
0.00
0
2
0.11
(shut  down)
http://heavy.stablehash.com/
0.14
0.02
0
1.7
0.08
1
PROP
https://hvc.crunchharder.net/
0.00
0.00
0
0
0
2
PPLNS
total
64,022.38
-9,021.76
network rate
59,450
-20,120
* due to rate variability displayed through pool statistics pages, rates are based on average of 10 samples over the past hour
** miner count for 1gh unavailable
*** Delta since last update


Pool luck
last 24h luck
1gh
nonce
hvcpool
zhpool
poolhub
hash avg
50,549.66
666.54
0.25
38,458.49
9,235.16
blocks
472
6
0
274
57
hash %
51.11
0.67
0.00
38.88
9.34
blocks %
58.36
0.74
0.00
33.88
7.02
luck %
114.20
110.10
0.00
87.10
75.20
last 7d luck
1gh
nonce
hvcpool
zhpool
poolhub
hash avg
50,549.66
666.54
0.25
38,458.49
9,235.16
blocks
2,619
38
0
1,975
348
hash %
51.11
0.67
0.00
38.88
9.34
blocks %
52.59
0.76
0.00
39.66
6.99
luck %
102.90
113.23
0.00
102.00
74.84

Mining (indicative, not authoritative!)
payoff per Mhash/s / dayideal solo
1gh
nonce
hvcpool
zhpool
poolhub
HVC3.98615
3.99
4.39
0.00
3.95
2.90
mBTC0.08128
0.08
0.09
0.00
0.08
0.06
USD0.03404
0.03
0.04
0.00
0.03
0.02
pool take / day
1gh
nonce
hvcpool
zhpool
poolhub
HVC
2,035.34
29.53
0.00
1,534.86
270.45
BTC
0.04
0.00
0.00
0.03
0.01
USD
17.38
0.25
0.00
13.11
2.31
Based on last 7 days performance and... block reward: HVC544 | mBTC/HVC: 0.02039 | USD/BTC: $418.8

Block progression
overall
1gh
hvcpool
noncepool
zhpool
poolhub
other
total
Blocks
2619
0
38
1975
348
163
5999
Percent
43.7
0
0.6
32.9
5.8
2.7
85.7
hash_rate
50550
0
667
38458
9235
1
98911
Percent
51.1
0
0.7
38.9
9.3
0
100


1gh Top stats
___Top_100______Top_10___
Total:30,023.14 Mhash/sTotal:8,895.26 Mhash/s
% of pool:86.1%% of pool:25.5%
% of network:46.9%% of network:13.9%
Mean rate:300.23 Mhash/sMean rate:889.53 Mhash/s
Median rate:197.52 Mhash/sMedian rate:806.04 Mhash/s
Mode(10) rate:80 Mhash/sMode(100) rate:700 Mhash/s


Question: The 'other' timeline for blocks found seems fairly busy.  Am I missing a pool?  Let me know!



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