NA

[BioMike]

Well, you were too late for that action. The IPO was started already and filling op quick. Next time better i guess... for now more than enough said. All positive vibes to Gulden again, pls  

Yeah... an IPO below market price... sure that fills up quickly.

BioMike, you are a complete ass. Dont you read? The IPO started at a time the price was around 500 sats en was filled way before the explosion to almost 1500.

And what is your point anyway in bringing this up? Its always and ALWAYS only you and LTEX that incite people inside the community. Just stop the FUD!

The IPO was completed before the price increase (did the maths at 520 sat, where an offer of 500 sat was made). When I funded a large part of the iOS wallet development costs the price was much higher than the market price.

My point is that I want the time, money and effort invested in NLG is respected. Questioning decisions is part of that from my side, you have only been nagging me about price not going to the moon. We are just critical and not someone who always says yes.

Very not true and you know. I only questioned your so called market stabilisator which is damaging te growth of Gulden imo. I never brought up anything about price/moon stuff. This is something that is constant in your mind. You are singing out loud when the price goes down but when price goes up you always talk about PnD. How can you be so wrong about me? Like I said before... stop this and put some more positive energy in your Gulden projects.

I read those PMs as your complain that the software was preventing the price going up to higher. I guess I misread that. I also remembered someone (and I thought it was you, but can't find any reference for that any more) asking me to remove high sell orders earlier this year. Sorry for that misunderstanding.

[thsminer]

Well, you were too late for that action. The IPO was started already and filling op quick. Next time better i guess... for now more than enough said. All positive vibes to Gulden again, pls  

Yeah... an IPO below market price... sure that fills up quickly.

BioMike, you are a complete ass. Dont you read? The IPO started at a time the price was around 500 sats en was filled way before the explosion to almost 1500.

And what is your point anyway in bringing this up? Its always and ALWAYS only you and LTEX that incite people inside the community. Just stop the FUD!

You dare to say some very harsh words here friend... The IPO started in the afternoon when NLG was traded at 530 Sat average. The lowest price was AFTER the IPO at 510. And thats logical when a 1 mm is "above the market" sold at 500.

So Now its LTEX, BIO and me? Forgot about Fuse, 24Kilo, CIG, Ontopic and I can continue... They just gave up commenting as well as me. But you crossed a line here...

[LTEX]

@MaNI, so if you consider yourself as part of the whole team. What's your opinion about the community members that feel like they are ignored and held back by the dev team?

I cannot speak about incidences that have happened before I have joined, however quite honestly I feel that the current complaints are completely unfounded for the most part, at least from the most vocal people, there may be less vocal people who have legitimate concerns but I wouldn't know as I have not heard from them.
I think that these people are still reacting based on things that have happened in the past, and not on what is happening now, I ask these people to let go of the past and focus on the present.

In this particular instance, an offer was made to the community at large, the overwhelming majority accepted it, one or two people did not.
One in particular (LTex) was very loud and vocal about it, and made a counter offer - the counter offer would have involved (a) Doing multiple things in a way that LTex prescribed (b) Taking money from only one person, something that is (at least in my opinion) far more prone to corruption as it lends power and influence to that individual.
Faced with the choice of going with the original plan - which the community at large accepted and was happy to fund with an overwhelmingly fast response - or going with a less desirable plan that came with various terms we were not happy with we took the first - this seems to me reasonable. Roel, on behalf of the team tried to address LTex's concerns on the forum as much as reasonable, however the team cannot and will not be beholden to a small minority of the community, no decision of any importance will ever have 100% backing of everybody.

I can assure you that had the response from the *community at large* been negative and not so overwhelmingly positive, then it would have been a completely different story.

How do you as a team plan to improve that? The discussion about IPO for the iOS app is just one example, the problem is (and long time has been) bigger than that.

I'm sure we will continue to discuss as a team what we can improve and where as well as continuing to take pointers from the community at large. However, and this is important, for any decision there will always be people who do *not* get there way, and we simply cannot control how those people feel or react to this.

And don't use the open source of the wallet as an excuse for guarantee that everything will be fine, you should know better that that is a false excuse.

I know no such thing. Nobody can 'own' open source code, especially if they are not even the people working on it.
Ask Oracle how 'owning' OpenOffice or various other open source products worked out for them, the second they bought it the developers all fled, eventually out of desperation they gave OpenOffice away to Apache but still it is a has been with a completely new fork LibreOffice rising in its place.

MaNi, I never tried to dictate my opinion on this IPO in any way. I only argued I had concerns about the path chosen and offered an alternative. Both the concerns and the alternative have been ignored completely by the dev team (you take part in and are rightfully trying to defend here). I have tried again and again to get a decent conversation going on this, to me, important step.

It's absolutely untrue that I have tried to manipulate the outcome of any democratic process here. That would be impossible for there has never been any democratic process! My later offer to privately help Roel and Patrick out to fund their BV (Limited) has nothing to do with my rightful doubts about the decision to use that BV for the OIS wallets. I just wanted to offer my donation to help them out to become more professional then they already were. But in all fairness, I surely would have liked to at least get a decent answer to my serious questions. It was totally founded and respectful until the total ignorance of your dev team became shameless!

And one person donating (not eating up premine) funds to help Gulden get forward is bad? I haven't asked for shares or any other compensation, I just wanted to help things move on fast without any obstacles.

You talk about community at large funding and approving this, but can you support that with figures? Because by my counts only 5 persons were involved in this IPO. If that represents the majority of your community, I must be posting in the wrong thread here

[Meije]

Roel, on behalf of the team tried to address LTex's concerns on the forum as much as reasonable, however the team cannot and will not be beholden to a small minority of the community, no decision of any importance will ever have 100% backing of everybody.

Of course, but just counting in your head who agrees and who does not is not the proper way to do it. Concrete numbers by voting showing % of pro-con gives everybody the satisfaction that a they won or lost, imagine an election without concrete numbers of election results, riots would start to occur everywhere, just like they occur here once in a while.

[Jero]

Well, you were too late for that action. The IPO was started already and filling op quick. Next time better i guess... for now more than enough said. All positive vibes to Gulden again, pls  

Yeah... an IPO below market price... sure that fills up quickly.

BioMike, you are a complete ass. Dont you read? The IPO started at a time the price was around 500 sats en was filled way before the explosion to almost 1500.

And what is your point anyway in bringing this up? Its always and ALWAYS only you and LTEX that incite people inside the community. Just stop the FUD!

The IPO was completed before the price increase (did the maths at 520 sat, where an offer of 500 sat was made). When I funded a large part of the iOS wallet development costs the price was much higher than the market price.

My point is that I want the time, money and effort invested in NLG is respected. Questioning decisions is part of that from my side, you have only been nagging me about price not going to the moon. We are just critical and not someone who always says yes.

Very not true and you know. I only questioned your so called market stabilisator which is damaging te growth of Gulden imo. I never brought up anything about price/moon stuff. This is something that is constant in your mind. You are singing out loud when the price goes down but when price goes up you always talk about PnD. How can you be so wrong about me? Like I said before... stop this and put some more positive energy in your Gulden projects.

I read those PMs as your complain that the software was preventing the price going up to higher. I guess I misread that. I also remembered someone (and I thought it was you, but can't find any reference for that any more) asking me to remove high sell orders earlier this year. Sorry for that misunderstanding.

Nope, I just asked why your software works like it works and I told you very high sell orders dont exude confidence towards new people.
But hey... why trowing mud anyway? You don't like how I talk to LTEX or what? Just keep that between us and don't throw sand in peoples eyes.

[Jero]

Well, you were too late for that action. The IPO was started already and filling op quick. Next time better i guess... for now more than enough said. All positive vibes to Gulden again, pls  

Yeah... an IPO below market price... sure that fills up quickly.

BioMike, you are a complete ass. Dont you read? The IPO started at a time the price was around 500 sats en was filled way before the explosion to almost 1500.

And what is your point anyway in bringing this up? Its always and ALWAYS only you and LTEX that incite people inside the community. Just stop the FUD!

You dare to say some very harsh words here friend... The IPO started in the afternoon when NLG was traded at 530 Sat average. The lowest price was AFTER the IPO at 510. And thats logical when a 1 mm is "above the market" sold at 500.

So Now its LTEX, BIO and me? Forgot about Fuse, 24Kilo, CIG, Ontopic and I can continue... They just gave up commenting as well as me. But you crossed a line here...

No. it's LTEX and BIO at the Dutch forums and also here. I never mentioned you my friend. The ones you mention are old clashes which, for sure, I have nothing to do with. Don't mix these things up, the mess is already big enough imo...

[BioMike]

@MaNI, so if you consider yourself as part of the whole team. What's your opinion about the community members that feel like they are ignored and held back by the dev team?

I cannot speak about incidences that have happened before I have joined, however quite honestly I feel that the current complaints are completely unfounded for the most part, at least from the most vocal people, there may be less vocal people who have legitimate concerns but I wouldn't know as I have not heard from them.
I think that these people are still reacting based on things that have happened in the past, and not on what is happening now, I ask these people to let go of the past and focus on the present.

This is not one person, but multiple persons that have these same issues with the dev team. DeVries has had contact with WaterLooDown, describing the same problem, which lead to him decide to shut down the community forum and leaving the community. This is as recent as it can be. Maybe contact WaterLooDown for details.

I skip the mentioned instance, because I don't want to derail the conversation.

How do you as a team plan to improve that? The discussion about IPO for the iOS app is just one example, the problem is (and long time has been) bigger than that.

I'm sure we will continue to discuss as a team what we can improve and where as well as continuing to take pointers from the community at large. However, and this is important, for any decision there will always be people who do *not* get there way, and we simply cannot control how those people feel or react to this.

Most of the people I'm talking about don't want things their way per se. But valid questions that are raised should be answered when raised and not ignored.

And don't use the open source of the wallet as an excuse for guarantee that everything will be fine, you should know better that that is a false excuse.

I know no such thing. Nobody can 'own' open source code, especially if they are not even the people working on it.
Ask Oracle how 'owning' OpenOffice or various other open source products worked out for them, the second they bought it the developers all fled, eventually out of desperation they gave OpenOffice away to Apache but still it is a has been with a completely new fork LibreOffice rising in its place.

Yes, even open source code have a license which tells you who the owner is (copyright holder), but grants rights to others. Linus Torvalds can't do sh*t when he wants Ubuntu or Redhat to prevent them from doing certain things (as long as the license is respected). Which is IMHO a more suitable example compared to what we are discussing here. Another example is the BSD networking code in the old MS Windows versions.

[leipebarry]

Well, you were too late for that action. The IPO was started already and filling op quick. Next time better i guess... for now more than enough said. All positive vibes to Gulden again, pls  

Yeah... an IPO below market price... sure that fills up quickly.

BioMike, you are a complete ass. Dont you read? The IPO started at a time the price was around 500 sats en was filled way before the explosion to almost 1500.

And what is your point anyway in bringing this up? Its always and ALWAYS only you and LTEX that incite people inside the community. Just stop the FUD!

You dare to say some very harsh words here friend... The IPO started in the afternoon when NLG was traded at 530 Sat average. The lowest price was AFTER the IPO at 510. And thats logical when a 1 mm is "above the market" sold at 500.

So Now its LTEX, BIO and me? Forgot about Fuse, 24Kilo, CIG, Ontopic and I can continue... They just gave up commenting as well as me. But you crossed a line here...

No. it's LTEX and BIO at the Dutch forums and also here. I never mentioned you my friend. The ones you mention are old clashes which, for sure, I have nothing to do with. Don't mix these things up, the mess is already big enough imo...

Are you a member of the Criptoe team?
If yes well it is me who mentioned Criptoe.
Few pages back I was talking about the AUR kingdom where the house of LTEX, the house of Biomike and the house of Criptoe rule.
You guys are involved with AUR right? if not my deepest apologies for mentioning the house of Criptoe!
If you guys are involved with AUR well good luck ruling the kingdom of AUR lord thsminer.

[BioMike]

<cut>

Nope, I just asked why your software works like it works and I told you very high sell orders dont exude confidence towards new people.
But hey... why trowing mud anyway? You don't like how I talk to LTEX or what? Just keep that between us and don't throw sand in peoples eyes.

LTEX can defend himself... no need for me to help him (I'm not his B*tch ).

[Jero]

We've funded a lot of development using premine, without asking permission. Android for example, funded by premine, not one complaint about that. Recent wallets? Funded by premine. I can give many other examples, but see for yourself developer.gulden.com/premine. Oh Gulden.com? Funded by premine. There is something all these projects have in common, they are all improving Gulden. And that is exactly what the premine is for, clearly stated on the front page and premine page: 170 million NLG was reserved for financing development, security, hosting, community projects, marketing and other miscellaneous expenses.

Almost 2000 people in the Netherlands downloaded Guldenwallet, those people can't update anymore or promote it, because it's been removed from the App Store. New users with an iPhone? Bad luck. Gulden for Windows, for Linux, for Mac, for Android and for iPhone, essential for the success of Gulden. We wont ask the community if we should develop a better wallet and we will not ask the community if iPhone users should have a wallet.

Then if the solution does not only help Gulden but also Nocks, a company that... Well I don't think I have to explain anyone why we want Nocks: Paying at every Bitcoin merchant, most communities would beg for such a feature.

So no we are not gonna stand still, start a foundation and have endless discussions, we are gonna move forward like we've been doing since day one.

But the only difference is along the road one person started making a lot of noise. Noise about his future projects, noise about his never finished projects, noise about how the dev team is not working for him, listening, or taking money from him. And some listen to that noise, but the big majority doesn't, so neither will we. It's just noise, from one person. Well, we are here to change the whole financial system, there will be much bigger money-waving with loud mouths. And they also won't impress us, because our focus is on making Gulden a common payment method in the Netherlands.

We won't change our methods, because it is working very well. So if you don't like it, I suggest looking at other projects, there is a countrycoin that is perfect for some people, you will find all the great developers and managers you want in a project.

For the people that like our methods. Welcome, together we write history.

Well said and even more important, a dev team that really DELIVERS!

thnx! @Gulden. You made my weekend!

[leipebarry]

<cut>

Nope, I just asked why your software works like it works and I told you very high sell orders dont exude confidence towards new people.
But hey... why trowing mud anyway? You don't like how I talk to LTEX or what? Just keep that between us and don't throw sand in peoples eyes.

LTEX can defend himself... no need for me to help him (I'm not his B*tch ).

I never said that you hold his pocket like in prison.
You are just his manservant.

[BioMike]

But the only difference is along the road one person started making a lot of noise. Noise about his future projects, noise about his never finished projects, noise about how the dev team is not working for him, listening, or taking money from him. And some listen to that noise, but the big majority doesn't, so neither will we. It's just noise, from one person. Well, we are here to change the whole financial system, there will be much bigger money-waving with loud mouths. And they also won't impress us, because our focus is on making Gulden a common payment method in the Netherlands.

[Gordon Ramsey-mode]
Oh.. F*ck me... was that really needed to be said?
[/Gordon Ramsey-mode]

[Svener]

We've funded a lot of development using premine, without asking permission. Android for example, funded by premine, not one complaint about that. Recent wallets? Funded by premine. I can give many other examples, but see for yourself developer.gulden.com/premine. Oh Gulden.com? Funded by premine. There is something all these projects have in common, they are all improving Gulden. And that is exactly what the premine is for, clearly stated on the front page and premine page: 170 million NLG was reserved for financing development, security, hosting, community projects, marketing and other miscellaneous expenses.

Almost 2000 people in the Netherlands downloaded Guldenwallet, those people can't update anymore or promote it, because it's been removed from the App Store. New users with an iPhone? Bad luck. Gulden for Windows, for Linux, for Mac, for Android and for iPhone, essential for the success of Gulden. We wont ask the community if we should develop a better wallet and we will not ask the community if iPhone users should have a wallet.

Then if the solution does not only help Gulden but also Nocks, a company that... Well I don't think I have to explain anyone why we want Nocks: Paying at every Bitcoin merchant, most communities would beg for such a feature.

So no we are not gonna stand still, start a foundation and have endless discussions, we are gonna move forward like we've been doing since day one.

But the only difference is along the road one person started making a lot of noise. Noise about his future projects, noise about his never finished projects, noise about how the dev team is not working for him, listening, or taking money from him. And some listen to that noise, but the big majority doesn't, so neither will we. It's just noise, from one person. Well, we are here to change the whole financial system, there will be much bigger money-waving with loud mouths. And they also won't impress us, because our focus is on making Gulden a common payment method in the Netherlands.

We won't change our methods, because it is working very well. So if you don't like it, I suggest looking at other projects, there is a countrycoin that is perfect for some people, you will find all the great developers and managers you want in a project.

For the people that like our methods. Welcome, together we write history.

WTF? already! You guys are beasts

[pijpenstelen]

MaNI you weren't lying when you said updates will come much faster. Is this a forced upgrade?

[Jero]

Thanks @ Rijk for taking a firm stance, I respect that   I for one have great faith and trust in the vision and leadership qualities of the devs. If you just keep doing your thing, and if LTEX continues building projects and hopefully create Guldex, then all should be well. I think it's very clear now where the distinction lines are drawn between the devs and the community. I hope the Gulden devs keep on doing their thing as they have been doing up untill now and that the community itself should organise and consolidate mainly on their own strength. Devs should do dev-business, and perhaps LTEX can have a big role to play when it comes to the expansion and the consolidation of the community by delivering more awesome projects, I am sure he gains everyones' attention and respect if he manages to pull off Guldex.  

My respect, well spoken words. Time to take a rest

[BioMike]

MaNI you weren't lying when you said updates will come much faster. Is this a forced upgrade?

Changelog?

[MaNI]

MaNI you weren't lying when you said updates will come much faster. Is this a forced upgrade?

I speak only the truth.  
A lot of effort has gone into smoothing out the release process so that we can do releases quickly and consistently, if some major flaw is discovered we need to be able to put out a release within hours not days..

In this case it is not a forced update, it is a small update to help with moving the seed nodes over to the new domains, a few other minor fixes and one or two other things. People who are on 1.5.1 do not need to feel rushed to move to 1.5.2 (it is not our intention to force people to upgrade unnecessarily every second day either)

[LTEX]

But the only difference is along the road one person started making a lot of noise. Noise about his future projects, noise about his never finished projects, noise about how the dev team is not working for him, listening, or taking money from him. And some listen to that noise, but the big majority doesn't, so neither will we. It's just noise, from one person. Well, we are here to change the whole financial system, there will be much bigger money-waving with loud mouths. And they also won't impress us, because our focus is on making Gulden a common payment method in the Netherlands.

This is low even for you Rijk! I only started to make noise when the silence from you after my decent and well funded questions became embarrassing and unbearable.

I haven't in any way complained about you not working for me or any of my initiatives (never have!) The only thing I did was raise a normal question about my reservations towards funding and using a privately owned company (of one of your known closest friends in this community). I have offered direct and instant financial support to maintain pace in going forward, without compromising the pureness of the premine.

The noise you refer to does not come from me (one person) but from a vast majority. You only chose to listen to the ones that blindly follow your awesomeness. The ones that stop and think about things every once in a while get banned by posts like you just posted.

The noise also is not the reason you chose to ignore my questions, it's the result of you ignoring them! I really would like to know why you simply not give a straight answer to an educated and decent question from a long term active member, but rather chose to ignore it and disrespect the democratic process you try to advocate so often?

For the record, we are taking down the sell wall now, our point has been made. No use to confuse guys like Barry anymore on this...

[leipebarry]

But the only difference is along the road one person started making a lot of noise. Noise about his future projects, noise about his never finished projects, noise about how the dev team is not working for him, listening, or taking money from him. And some listen to that noise, but the big majority doesn't, so neither will we. It's just noise, from one person. Well, we are here to change the whole financial system, there will be much bigger money-waving with loud mouths. And they also won't impress us, because our focus is on making Gulden a common payment method in the Netherlands.

This is low even for you Rijk! I only started to make noise when the silence from you after my decent and well funded questions became embracing and unbearable.

I haven't in any way complained about you not working for me or any of my initiatives (never have!) The only thing I did was raise a normal question about my reservations towards funding and using a privately owned company (of one of your known closest friends in this community). I have offered direct and instant financial support to maintain pace in going forward, without compromising the pureness of the premine.

The noise you refer to does not come from me (one person) but from a vast majority. You only chose to listen to the ones that blindly follow your awesomeness. The ones that stop and think about things every once in a while get banned by posts like you just posted.

You my friend, are really nothing shy of a dictator! Only dictators use their power to accuse their adversaries to be who they really are themselves!

For the record, we are taking down the sell wall now, our point has been made. No use to confuse guys like Barry anymore on this...

[/quote]

Only thing I am confused of is whether or not we have a bet.
Last time I ask after that I will assume you have no interest in it. 

50K NLG if you pull it off to have Guldex online in 1 year and applied to all Dutch regulations.

[pijpenstelen]

For the record, we are taking down the sell wall now.

Good decision, it's not wise to leave so many coins on a exchange for any reason.