[ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11

[easteagle13]

And to my disbelief and dismay an internet giant is down at the moment:

FACEBOOK.

[bitwho]

PLease vote for KARMA twice everyday here: https://hitbtc.com/vote, we need more markets!!

i can only vote with my mobile.


unless its my add block that is stopping the pop up on both firefox and chrome

[CatKiwi]

In the words of the great Encyclopedia Galactica: DON'T PANIC

Did the "possible 51% attack" originate form a regular mining pool? I somehow doubt that. Prematurely blaming regular pools is IMO a bad move and definitely not good Karma. Isn't it much more likely that the attack was coming from an external actor, rather than the existing Karma mining community? What if it is related to the 1.5+ GH/s Nethash that were unaccounted for last week? Was it even an attack on the regular network or rather aimed at Mintpal directly? I'd like to see some facts before we rush to conclusions and point fingers.

If it was indeed a 51% attack, it is pretty much the scenario I and others were warning about in April. Because of the new ASICs several GH/s of mining power are suddenly at the whim of a few select people. Moving our existing hashrate to P2Pools doesn't protect from that. P2Pool is a tiny piece in the puzzle of securing the network at best.

Another piece would be if the community and/or LLC joined the game and secured the network by aquiring additional mining power, either through renting rigs or purchasing ASICs. This was already suggested as an idea on the Karmashares forums IIRC.

In the interest of not getting this whole mining/algo/PoS discussion started again, I'll just shut up now. The team will work it out, I trust them to do whatever is best for Karma.

This is me speaking for self.

No one is blaming anyone as we don't have proof on who did what. But there has been speculation among a few of us that there is the possibility of a shadow pool or pools who are modifying their front ends to show one thing yet combining hash power in the back or have a private pool made up of huge hash power rigs that is working hidden to the public. Again we don't have any tangible proof on who is or is not doing this, however I will challenge you to look up all the pools you can find and then add up their hashrate. You will find that their is currently close to 1.5-2gh of net hash that is unaccounted for. And i think you would be foolish to think there are that many people solo mining. While asking people to mine at a p2pool is not a fix all it does put us one step forward in an attempt to spread the hash rate instead of having it all focused in one place. Hell for all we know you could be unknowing hashing away at a pool that is feeding this type of attack without you even having a clue. In the end to each is their own, if you switch to a p2pool or not that is up to you. But at least it was put out there on what could be happening and its up to you if you wish to react or not. The health of Karma and its security is very important the Karma Team and rest assured they are looking into doing what they can to make sure Karma remains secure for years to come.  

As I said, I have full faith in the team and am not worried at all.

Nobody has named anyone, but as a regular here I couldn't help but notice some bad Karma in the air concerning certain pools lately. Then this rumored attack takes place and suddenly everyone writes and tweets "OMG switch to P2Pool now". Didn't really feel right to me. Disclaimer: I personally do not mine anymore . I've always liked P2Pools though, so I would switch if the high electricity cost and the sharp drop in profitability hadn't forced me to dismantle my rigs.

IMO it most likely is an unknown/hidden pool. Heard about the Synology NAS mining malware that mined the creator 500 Million Dogecoin? He/She/They set up a private pool for that purpose and went unnoticed for months. Not saying that's happening here. But if you were - uhm lets say an industrial scale miner and sat on a fat and juicy Scrypt-Farm with a few hundred MH/s or even GH/s - would you mine in a public pool and pay fees to some stranger, or would you just set up your own, non-public, pool?

In both their posts they have attempted to get people to switch to their pool with the enticement of rewards and zero fees. It matters not what their intentions are - they are holding themselves out as promoting a pool through the use of negative speculation and baseless accusations.

This is simply not true. You are talking about me. I have asked multipool-eu's questions about why the operator would let 92% of the hash reside at them while still maintaining the idea they are "helping karma". they have not engaged in discussion about this at all, just full on ignore.

you can read my previous posts about pools. i have been a proponent of leaving multipool-eu on the list of pools and i have also requested people mine at ANY pool that had few miners. i am for full disclosure.

besides trying to thwart 51% on the karma blockchain for a while by adding a p2pool to the ecosystem i also stepped up and am running our blockexplorer when the prevoius one went down.

i also hosts a couple of wallets online so people can bootstrap onto the blockchain because the seed nodes have all been pulled be the previous devs.

i am not sure why you are attacking me. 51% attacks are very very serious, just look at all the cex fallout regarding bitcoin and their 12 hour streak.

i really really dislike your tone and insinuations.

i'll get back to you with the posts where i actively ask people to use any pool and the posts regarding questions about multipools motives but i have a life so not right now.

anyway... that is all for now, i'll get back to you with post links.

Firstly,  I limit my criticism to those posts in question - whoever they were made by.

Secondly, The theoretical potential for an attack is not justification for posting that one may or may not have happened and enticing people to use a certain pool - as was the case yesterday.

If it can be shown that there was verifiable evidence to justify the posts made then that would be a start. However, as I said earlier, this thread is usually the first port of call for many people who just want to get an idea of what a coin stands for and its future as perceived by the community. Knowing this, it is simply a bad idea to make posts in the nature of those that were made yesterday.

Concerns that have the potential to cause panic among the unwary should be brought to the attention of the developer privately, where the dev team can discuss them and come up with a solution if one is so required. There are ways of dealing with concerns - and I stand by what I have said; the way in which the concerns were publicly aired yesterday was not appropriate.

Speculation and rumor become problematic when people are encouraged to act on it.

Could you point me to where i said this, because I can't find it myself.... You are accusing me of something, please provide proof.

and if you don't because you can't because i never said this you are slanderous. do you know what false accusations and slander mean?  

also your lack of backing up what you previously attacked me for like not answering any of my questions but just throwing more accusations around is really embarrasing not only to yourself but the everyone who has to read it, and certainly me who has to defend himself against your FUD.

Speculation and rumor become problematic when people are encouraged to act on it.

Coming from you that is comedy gold. You throw around accusations against me and when i try to talk about them you ignore it at move forward with new speculations. Just trolling at max speed.

I am not going to get into a back and fourth with you. I have not accused you of anything, nor have I named you. I was unhappy with a couple of posts that were made yesterday (by members who shall not be named) that I found inflammatory and poorly thought out due to their lack of provision of verifiable evidence regarding alleged events those posts were referring to. I stated I did not think it was appropriate for those posts to be made in the manner they were made (I felt they were quite alarming and should not have included advertising for a certain p2pool by using this unsubstantiated 'attack' as an effective springboard to get people to sign up with this pool. The fact that rewards were mentioned along with no mining fee for those who switch to that pool was not appropriate under the circumstances in my opinion.

You have taken something as a personal attack when you were not named as the subject. If you felt your post met the criteria by which I described the posts I took issue with and then decided to turn what I have said into an attack on you personally then that is your choice.

In your absence Kosmost and another user gave further explanation of their actions and upon recieving information about what was happening behind the scenes at the time I have accepted that explanation as fair.

At that point there ceased to be a problem and we have now moved on.




 

[Alphi]

We are running a coin with honor and integrity so we decided to let the public know as soon as possible just in case they wanted to move their coins out of exchanges until the smoke cleared.

I agree with everything you said except for the above point.

when a 51% attack happens the absolute worst thing you can do is try to move coins around.

the reason being that a successful attack creates a fork in the network.
this is effectively two separate block chains working in parallel.

now eventually all the miners move over to the dominant chain.. this is the self healing quality that makes block chain technology so amazing..
the problem is though that when this happens ALL transactions made on the weaker chain get voided. There is no easy way of knowing if you are on the correct chain when an attack happens.

so if people suddenly rush to take their coins off the exchange while an attack is happening there is NO way of guaranteeing they will end up in their wallets and even if the coins do show up there is no way of guaranteeing they will stay there (because you might be on the wrong chain).

if peoples withdrawals from exchanges don't go through they tend to panic and take to message boards and spread further panic. further panic on message boards can lead to mass dumping on exchanges.
all of this combined only creates bigger problems for the exchange and the community at large.

therefore the best course of action during any kind of 51% attack is the same kind of action you would take if a typhoon or earthquake hits your town... Stay in doors.. keep calm and do not panic... do not run around outside trying to secure your valuables, if you do that then you will only increase your chances of getting hurt...

it is only well before or after an attack has occurred that people should be reevaluating where their coins are being held.
the bottom line is and always has been... if you do not want your coins taken via theft, loss or damage... keep them in your personal wallet in a safe place that only you have access to.
(A 51% attack cannot steal coins from your personal wallet, it only affects people actively mining a coin or making transactions)
An exchange is the least secure place to hold coins because that is where they are most centralized and each coin that an exchange supports is effectively a door through which thieves and scam artists can sneak in.
can you imagine a bank with 100+ entrances? this is basically what some exchanges are.

[Beachguy]

........
We waste too much time on petty nonsense. First we obsessed about price for 20+ pages, now it's this..

Surely we can be more productive

Amen kosmost....the huge quote boxes that get bigger are a distraction and take up a huge amount of space.
Anyone here know's your contributions Ag, so relax. I understand your
wish to standup for yourself, just let it roll off.
Sometimes its a better response.

Cat, give it a rest and enjoy where the coin is going as we all are.

[CatKiwi]

........
We waste too much time on petty nonsense. First we obsessed about price for 20+ pages, now it's this..

Surely we can be more productive

Amen kosmost....the huge quote boxes that get bigger are a distraction and take up a huge amount of space.
Anyone here know's your contributions Ag, so relax. I understand your
wish to standup for yourself, just let it roll off.
Sometimes its a better response.

Cat, give it a rest and enjoy where the coin is going as we all are.

No need to take aim at me mate. A discussion has taken place about the handling of an event that occurred yesterday- that's all it is. I have said my final piece on the matter, I'm happy with the explanations given by Kosmost and Bitwho as I have already stated twice. I wont be replying to any more call outs or questioning on the matter as I agree it's gone further than it should have. As long as everyone else is happy to let sleeping dogs lie this discussion is finished.

Let's keep it all in perspective however - we are all supporting this coin. We may have a bit of a squabble every now again over this or that but at the end of the day we are all just saying and doing what we think is best for the community and the future of the coin. Sometimes things will be said or done that don't sit right with some us and we voice our concern in response, other times we will all get along like kindred spirits. It's just the nature of the game - lots of different people from all walks of life with different views.

Let's all just sit back and relax - Karm is looking in good stead!

[altcoingood]

........
We waste too much time on petty nonsense. First we obsessed about price for 20+ pages, now it's this..

Surely we can be more productive

Amen kosmost....the huge quote boxes that get bigger are a distraction and take up a huge amount of space.
Anyone here know's your contributions Ag, so relax. I understand your
wish to standup for yourself, just let it roll off.
Sometimes its a better response.

Cat, give it a rest and enjoy where the coin is going as we all are.

No need to take aim at me mate. A discussion has taken place about the handling of an event that occurred yesterday- that's all it is. I have said my final piece on the matter, I'm happy with the explanations given by Kosmost and Bitwho as I have already stated twice. I wont be replying to any more call outs or questioning on the matter as I agree it's gone further than it should have. As long as everyone else is happy to let sleeping dogs lie this discussion is finished.

Let's keep it all in perspective however - we are all supporting this coin. We may have a bit of a squabble every now again over this or that but at the end of the day we are all just saying and doing what we think is best for the community and the future of the coin. Sometimes things will be said or done that don't sit right with some us and we voice our concern in response, other times we will all get along like kindred spirits. It's just the nature of the game - lots of different people from all walks of life with different views.

Let's all just sit back and relax - Karm is looking in good stead!

Very easy for you to tell people to relax when you accuse them. This is one of the master suppression-techniques. I will not be talked down to by you.

When someone takes a jab at you it is everyone's right to defend themselves. That is all I have done and I could go into a further analysis of Catkiwi's answer (like refusing to mention me by name but mentioning Kosmost and Bitwho would be a form of "exclusion"-technique, whether it's intentional or not matters not, only how actors are positioned in a conversation) but I won't go into that just know that the one who is actively destroying the other one by planting motives and lying about what they have previously have said is not the one who gets to call out when to stop. The one who gets to stop this is the one who is the victim of said bullying tactics.

Anyway... I think we can stop now.

[AGcrypto]

We are running a coin with honor and integrity so we decided to let the public know as soon as possible just in case they wanted to move their coins out of exchanges until the smoke cleared.

I agree with everything you said except for the above point.

when a 51% attack happens the absolute worst thing you can do is try to move coins around.

the reason being that a successful attack creates a fork in the network.
this is effectively two separate block chains working in parallel.

now eventually all the miners move over to the dominant chain.. this is the self healing quality that makes block chain technology so amazing..
the problem is though that when this happens ALL transactions made on the weaker chain get voided. There is no easy way of knowing if you are on the correct chain when an attack happens.

so if people suddenly rush to take their coins off the exchange while an attack is happening there is NO way of guaranteeing they will end up in their wallets and even if the coins do show up there is no way of guaranteeing they will stay there (because you might be on the wrong chain).

if peoples withdrawals from exchanges don't go through they tend to panic and take to message boards and spread further panic. further panic on message boards can lead to mass dumping on exchanges.
all of this combined only creates bigger problems for the exchange and the community at large.

therefore the best course of action during any kind of 51% attack is the same kind of action you would take if a typhoon or earthquake hits your town... Stay in doors.. keep calm and do not panic... do not run around outside trying to secure your valuables, if you do that then you will only increase your chances of getting hurt...

it is only well before or after an attack has occurred that people should be reevaluating where their coins are being held.
the bottom line is and always has been... if you do not want your coins taken via theft, loss or damage... keep them in your personal wallet in a safe place that only you have access to.
(A 51% attack cannot steal coins from your personal wallet, it only affects people actively mining a coin or making transactions)
An exchange is the least secure place to hold coins because that is where they are most centralized and each coin that an exchange supports is effectively a door through which thieves and scam artists can sneak in.
can you imagine a bank with 100+ entrances? this is basically what some exchanges are.

This is the last post I will do on this matter as people seem to just want to drag this out and seem to just want to hear themselves talk. The whole point was we knew it happened at MintPal but did not know if other exchanges were next, in the next minute, the next hour, or the next day. So yea it was already too late and all you could do is wait it out if the attack was active at your exchange but at least you had the heads up incase you had coins at other exchanges and wanted the opportunity to move them before they got hit. We did not tell anyone to do anything we just gave them the info we had so they could take whatever course of action they saw fit. I personally moved a good chunk of coins out of Cryptsy that i had just bought a few days ago and had not yet sent to my wallet. Again it was speculated it was a 51% attack but it could have been a lot more, we did not have an in depth explanation of the extent of the attack at the time.   

[Alphi]

The whole point was we knew it happened at MintPal but did not know if other exchanges were next, in the next minute, the next hour, or the next day. So yea it was already too late and all you could do is wait it out if the attack was active at your exchange but at least you had the heads up incase you had coins at other exchanges and wanted the opportunity to move them before they got hit. We did not tell anyone to do anything we just gave them the info we had so they could take whatever course of action they saw fit. I personally moved a good chunk of coins out of Cryptsy that i had just bought a few days ago and had not yet sent to my wallet. Again it was speculated it was a 51% attack but it could have been a lot more, we did not have an in depth explanation of the extent of the attack at the time.

I really think it would be worth your while to read up on 51% attacks a little more.
The fact that Minpal reported it and cryptsy did not does not mean that cryptsy was not yet affected.
A double spend attack is not against an exchange it is against the network. it is only detected by the exchange when they notice unusual transactions. When the network has forked (which is necessary to carry out double spend) it is unwise to make any transactions anywhere on the network because they may fail (and you may not know for some time). Even trades you make on any exchange can be wound back if the exchange is found to be operating on the wrong fork..  (usually exchanges halt trading and withdrawals if this happens but not all exchanges are smart enough to notice)

telling the community "this is what I did but I'm not telling you to do that" is a moot point since people often do follow the examples people who they assume have some leadership role.

the bottom line is.. you got lucky and nothing you did after the fact would have made any difference to the outcome of that event.... you could have easily had your coins and or related transactions frozen on any exchange.

this is why eduction and preemptive action are so important.

people do make a big fuss about 51% attacks.. but as long as you stay calm and stay put they are relatively harmless to coin holders (people actually holding the coins in an address that they control)..

for exchanges and miners however.. it is a different story. for miners it can mean losing a few days payout... for exchanges it can be near fatal. (as was the case with cryptorush, coinmarket, vircurex and various others)

[karmala]

epic fail pump on tlc   ehhh should not talk about prices... Everybody help Karma! If have no skills, like me , translate the websites into your mother tounge. Or help me find good charity ideas to get involved when we are ready. Dont worry, we are working on a decision for technical improvements/innovation. Keep with us, help us, together!

[dips55tree]

epic fail pump on tlc   ehhh should not talk about prices... Everybody help Karma! If have no skills, like me , translate the websites into your mother tounge. Or help me find good charity ideas to get involved when we are ready. Dont worry, we are working on a decision for technical improvements/innovation. Keep with us, help us, together!

Here here!!  Agree completely.

So much we could be doing to promote Karma.

[karmala]

If you are a c++ developer: Please contact us we will embrace you and invite you in our team! Flat hirachy and friendly atmoshphere.

[AGcrypto]

The whole point was we knew it happened at MintPal but did not know if other exchanges were next, in the next minute, the next hour, or the next day. So yea it was already too late and all you could do is wait it out if the attack was active at your exchange but at least you had the heads up incase you had coins at other exchanges and wanted the opportunity to move them before they got hit. We did not tell anyone to do anything we just gave them the info we had so they could take whatever course of action they saw fit. I personally moved a good chunk of coins out of Cryptsy that i had just bought a few days ago and had not yet sent to my wallet. Again it was speculated it was a 51% attack but it could have been a lot more, we did not have an in depth explanation of the extent of the attack at the time.

I really think it would be worth your while to read up on 51% attacks a little more.
The fact that Minpal reported it and cryptsy did not does not mean that cryptsy was not yet affected.
A double spend attack is not against an exchange it is against the network. it is only detected by the exchange when they notice unusual transactions. When the network has forked (which is necessary to carry out double spend) it is unwise to make any transactions anywhere on the network because they may fail (and you may not know for some time). Even trades you make on any exchange can be wound back if the exchange is found to be operating on the wrong fork..  (usually exchanges halt trading and withdrawals if this happens but not all exchanges are smart enough to notice)

telling the community "this is what I did but I'm not telling you to do that" is a moot point since people often do follow the examples people who they assume have some leadership role.

the bottom line is.. you got lucky and nothing you did after the fact would have made any difference to the outcome of that event.... you could have easily had your coins and or related transactions frozen on any exchange.

this is why eduction and preemptive action are so important.

people do make a big fuss about 51% attacks.. but as long as you stay calm and stay put they are relatively harmless to coin holders (people actually holding the coins in an address that they control)..

for exchanges and miners however.. it is a different story. for miners it can mean losing a few days payout... for exchanges it can be near fatal. (as was the case with cryptorush, coinmarket, vircurex and various others)

What part of it was speculation at the time it was 51% attack but it could have been something worse because we didn't have all the details do you not understand. I see you are one of those know it alls so ok, you win. You are right. Now how about you put that tech savvy brain of yours to work and help us come up with ways to prevent this in the  future instead of just nit picking the past post. Right or wrong a true leader acts and makes decisions while a poge just sits there with their finger up their 5th point of contact and does nothing.The KarmaTeam took all the info it had at the time and made a decision with the welfare of the community in mind and I stand 100% behind that decision and those who made it and if you don't like that then too bad because its not all about you.

[karmala]

stop it! KarmaKaguy has spoken

[RiverBoatBTC]

Any type of connection to http://karmakoin.com/?
© 2012 NEXON America Inc.
Think you all might want to be careful, if this company catches wind of this you could get a cease and desist order.

[karmala]

Any type of connection to http://karmakoin.com/?
© 2012 NEXON America Inc.
Think you all might want to be careful, if this company catches wind of this you could get a cease and desist order.

Thats one reason why we are Karma (former known as Karmacoin). The registered company is Karmashares

[bitwho]

guys. we are dealing with a coin that has a bright future ahead of us. people from all over the world come and check out this thread. lets not give them un necessary drama. this has dragged too long. We have hade much worse news to deal with before. we have come together then , we should be able to come together now. lets move on huh?

[karmala]

guys. we are dealing with a coin that has a bright future ahead of us. people from all over the world come and check out this thread. lets not give them un necessary drama. this has dragged too long. We have hade much worse news to deal with before. we have come together then , we should be able to come together now. lets move on huh?

Yes, go Karma. Our nerves were a bit blank. Understandable. But by now everybody should be fine again.

[ShawnLeary]

[bitwho]

PLease vote for KARMA twice everyday here: https://hitbtc.com/vote, we need more markets!!

it takes a second : )

here is some info. they have a Fiat/btc https://www.cryptocoincharts.info/v2/markets/show/hitbtc

Overall volume (24h)    709.31 BTC
424,204.97 USD
315,217.21 EUR