[ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"

[TooDumbForBitcoin]

Either way, the money supply is being massively diluted by digging, and the price is dropping.

Assuming (for the sake of argument) that this is a betting site/exchange owner acting alone.  How is the effect on supply/price different from the actions of (for the sake of argument) 1000 "real" wallet owners doing the same thing with the same CLAMs (that were really their property).  Is it the compressed time frame (3 months) that is the problem?

[dooglus]

It's not value destruction as long as the economy is growing with the money supply,

You can say it's not value destruction, but it's all least value transfer. My $1000 that I saved last year won't buy as much now as it would then. The value I have lost maybe now exists in the pocket of some government employee or central banker, so OK it wasn't destroyed. But I no longer control it.

Fiat (and Bitcoin) inflation devalues saver holdings to the benefit of the people who get the newly created money.

unless those sites grow their gambling base at the same rate as CLAM inflation, isn't inflation devaluing the coin?

No. It devalues each unit of the coin, but each (staking) holder gains units to compensate for that devaluation, resulting in 0% net value loss.

Perhaps CLAMs' ultimate weakness is its low utility. You just can't do much with it. Unless a (more robust) economy springs up around the coin, the current inflation rate is bound to devalue it relative to other currencies.

Suppose you have 100 CLAM and the price is 0.01 BTC per CLAM. You have 1 BTC worth of CLAM.

Suppose staking doubles your holding each year and halves the price each year.

By the end of the year, you'll have 200 CLAM and the price is 0.05 BTC per CLAM. You still have 1 BTC worth of CLAM.

You can cry that the price of CLAM in BTC has halved, but who cares? You still have 1 BTC worth of it, so it doesn't matter.

The only person complain is the guy who didn't bother staking for that year. He still has 100 CLAM, but now it's only worth 0.5 BTC. That's the incentive to stake.

[dooglus]

That "first stake or spend" is the act we are talking about changing the rules for.

Really?  During this discussion I always read "digging" as submitting a pre-May/2014 BTC wallet to receive 4.6 CLAMS per BTC address. 

"Submitting" is probably not helpful here. What you're doing is importing an old BTC wallet into a piece of open source software running on your own computer, which causes it to update a database on your own computer *and not tell anyone anywhere that you did so*. Until you stake or spend the coins that showed up when you imported the wallet nobody can tell that you imported the wallet. It all happens on your computer and nowhere else.

I can see how you can stop somebody from getting 4.6 CLAMs from a previously unsubmitted BTC address,

Actually, we can't. You can always use the current version of the CLAM client to import your old BTC wallet, and it will always show they you own some CLAMs. It doesn't know whether the rules will change in a future version.

but how can you keep somebody from staking/spending CLAMs they already own?

Technically, you can do it by changing the rules the client enforces. You change them to reject the spending of any output created in the first 10,000 blocks.

Ethically, perhaps you can't do it at all. That's where "Camp A" is coming from. You can't un-give people the CLAMs you already gave them.

[dooglus]

This is essentially accurate.

I'd appreciate hearing from you and xploited. Do either of you have anything to contribute to the discussion?

[SuperClam]

This is essentially accurate.

I'd appreciate hearing from you and xploited. Do either of you have anything to contribute to the discussion?

I don't believe splintering the network would be in the best interests of CLAM.
The network would be better served by a single decision and path forward that keeps the network unified.
In my honest opinion, all parties are better served with a pseudo-contentious single decision than multiple forks of the network.

That said, Just-Dice controls the majority of the staking CLAM and hence the majority of the CLAM network.
There is little the minority of solo-stakers could do to challenge such a change.

[smooth]

Camp C: It's not fair to change the CLAM rules, but it's OK to make a new coin, let's call it doogcoin. We use a variant of the CLAM distribution method: everyone who held non-distribution CLAM outputs at lunchtime yesterday can use their CLAM private key to claim their doogcoins. Just-Dice stops using CLAM and starts using doogcoin. The CLAM rules are unchanged, everyone can keep digging their CLAM, so everyone's happy, right?

Yes that is correct. Of course, you can use whatever distribution method you want for a new coin. I just suggested that mirroring the existing distribution of CLAM is superior to forking the network in an uncontrolled manner where transactions will confirm on one chain or both, causing chaos.

Anyone who wants digging to stop switches to doogcoin. Presumably JD switches to doogcoin too. I guess most CLAM holders dump their CLAM to buy more doogcoin. CLAM price goes to 0, doogcoin price goes to the moon. Is that the correct outcome? Is that what you're proposing?

Maybe that is the outcome, in which case so be it. Talk is cheap and if nobody really (as in putting money behind it) values the ideas on which CLAM is founded after all, then it will indeed go to zero. At the same time, perhaps there is some demand for a coin that is is distributed to holders of three widely held cryptos and not just the roughly 3% of holders of those coins who have dug CLAMs until now and that happens to be used on one well-known dice site, and in that case the original CLAM won't go to zero. I don't think we can really just make up the answer without actually doing the experiment.

[smooth]

That said, Just-Dice controls the majority of the staking CLAM and hence the majority of the CLAM network.
There is little the minority of solo-stakers could do to challenge such a change.

What this tells you is that the current situation where the most on the stake is on Just-Dice is completely broken. Just-Dice can effectively wipe out anyone's CLAMs (not just pre-dig) by refusing to stake on top of any blocks that move those coins. You might as well just make the whole damn thing a book entry on a Just-Dice database and dispense with the presence that there is a decentralized crypto.

Which to me is all the more reason to let the supply continue to grow so maybe, someday, there will be more coins in existence than just what people choose to invest in the JD bankroll. Granted that doesn't appear to be happening with the current digger but it at least could happen if the distribution process continues in the future.

[smooth]

However! For PoS coins this isn't the case. We buy 1000 CLAMs, and it's 0.1% of the 1 million total money supply, say. If there's no digging, and only staking, then a year later another 500k CLAMs have been staked. But we have staked 500 of that 500k, since we are 0.1% of the staking weight. So now we have 1500 of the 1.5 million supply, and still have 0.1% of the total money supply. Sure, assuming a constant market cap the price will have decreased by 50%, but our holdings have increased by 50% too, so our net worth in CLAM has remained constant.

This argument is false because it assumes that everyone stakes all the time. Smaller holders aren't necessarily going to stake because it isn't worth the trouble. Or they will stake in a few (or as we see now, one) large pools which catastrophically centralizes the network, and transfers (likely further concentrates in practice) wealth to the pool operator via fees.

People who are actively using the coin in a transactional manner (to the extent such a rumored mythical creature actually exists) also do not stake because the network rules don't allow it.

In this way staking is NOT the same as the inflation we see in USD, BTC, or DOGE, since the newly created coins are shared out to existing holders in proportion to their holdings.

It does bear a lot of resemblance to USD. Some are able to invest and keep up with inflation but others are not. The groups largely mirror the ones described above.

and it seems to push owners to hoard CLAMS and hold them indefinitely.

but it shouldn't. Staking is "running to stay still".

It likely does, for exactly the reason you state: Staying still is better than falling behind.

[xploited]

I'm a little confused how we progressed to Doogcoin. If theres overwhelming support for whatever changes dooglus would plan on making to doogcoin why exactly are we not implementing them in clams?

I would much prefer to see a unified path then a split. I don't think it will serve anyone positively in the long run.  


 

[SuperClam]

Blah Blah Blah
dooglus is a scammer
Blah Blah Blah
This coin is a scam
blah blah blah

Deleted for ad hominem attacks.
Congratulations you are the second moderation/deletion on this thread in it's well over a years existence.
The only deletion for non-spam/advertising.

[smooth]

I'm a little confused how we progressed to Doogcoin. If theres overwhelming support for whatever changes dooglus would plan on making to doogcoin why exactly are we not implementing them in clams?

I would much prefer to see a unified path then a split. I don't think it will serve anyone positively in the long run.  

What's "overwhelming support"?

I have nonzero CLAMs and I certainly don't support some sort of change that grabs undug claims that (according to the big pretty graphic in the OP) people already own.

[Hippie Tech]

Blah Blah Blah
dooglus is a scammer
Blah Blah Blah
This coin is a scam
blah blah blah

Deleted for ad hominem attacks.
Congratulations you are the second moderation/deletion on this thread in it's well over a years existence.
The only deletion for non-spam/advertising.

Wow.. my new term for shitcoin pushin scammer, "eduffield", is really catching on ! hahaha

If I'm wrong.. they why didn't you just fix the exploit ?

"I dropped the stake reward from 1000 to 1 because ... "

[xploited]

If I'm wrong.. they why didn't you just fix the exploit ?

"I dropped the stake reward from 1000 to 1 because ... "

There was no fixing, the lottery was inherently broken and unfixable. 

Suggesting the reward was 1000 is misinformed. It was a max of 1000, and a min of .1, and the overwheming majority of blocks were .1 reward.  Doog posted the chart where inflation increased after the lottery was stopped, you can look back to the last page or two to see it.

[nicolaennio]

Dooglus thanks again for the reply, I will cut a lot mine in order to be brief. The presence of a big and slow digger seems to give headaches to a lot of CLAM holders.

What about capping/limiting the amount of CLAMs which can be digged daily (example: no more than 200 CLAMS per day)? The available limits can be given randomly to diggers who wants them. In this way we are still 'fair' towards prospective diggers and at the same time we give a 'time advantage' to current holders which are, of course, more important than future unknown ones.

[gamblingbad]

Why not implement said Doogcoin alongside Clam on JD, instead of in its place? Kind of like Alex's site where you can gamble a few different crypto's with one common trollbox, etc?

I just spent a few hours away from the computer thinking about things, and came to the same conclusion myself. There's no reason to switch from CLAM to the new coin when we can accept both at the same time. That way people get to lose their balance twice!

The Just-Dice codebase isn't set up to handle multiple currencies, but I can simply run two different instances like I did with the original Just-Dice and Doge-Dice sites.

If you do that will u give investors choice to trade their clam for same amount moneysupply of doogcoin?

[o_dima]

If you do that will u give investors choice to trade their clam for same amount moneysupply of doogcoin?

Not for everyone of course. Lol. Only if your JD user ID is less than 50000. Or invested amount exceeds 4K clams. Anyway you will have a time (1-2 days) to buy some more clams and get your chance to jump on that train.

[chilly2k]

Why not implement said Doogcoin alongside Clam on JD, instead of in its place? Kind of like Alex's site where you can gamble a few different crypto's with one common trollbox, etc?

I just spent a few hours away from the computer thinking about things, and came to the same conclusion myself. There's no reason to switch from CLAM to the new coin when we can accept both at the same time. That way people get to lose their balance twice!

The Just-Dice codebase isn't set up to handle multiple currencies, but I can simply run two different instances like I did with the original Just-Dice and Doge-Dice sites.

If you do that will u give investors choice to trade their clam for same amount moneysupply of doogcoin?

   I believe he stated it would be a 1 for 1 swap for all clams not in the original distribution blocks, Which means if your clams have already been dug, you would get 1 doogcoin per. 

   This is all just hypothesis at this point.  He is just throwing out ideas for consideration. 

[andulolika]

If you do that will u give investors choice to trade their clam for same amount moneysupply of doogcoin?

Not for everyone of course. Lol. Only if your JD user ID is less than 50000. Or invested amount exceeds 4K clams. Anyway you will have a time (1-2 days) to buy some more clams and get your chance to jump on that train.

this is the moment im doubling price of uid 18 to 1.6 btc LOL.
Edit: i believe clam should stay as it is, clam was designed in a way and it shouldnt be changed just because people is afraid, there is another 14m of awesome coins or whatever amount it is, i think its a nice rollercoaster we would waste.

[Hippie Tech]

Blah Blah Blah
dooglus is a scammer
Blah Blah Blah
This coin is a scam
blah blah blah

Deleted for ad hominem attacks.
Congratulations you are the second moderation/deletion on this thread in it's well over a years existence.
The only deletion for non-spam/advertising.

Wow.. my new term for shitcoin pushin scammer, "eduffield", is really catching on ! hahaha

If I'm wrong.. they why didn't you just fix the exploit ?

"I dropped the stake reward from 1000 to 1 because ... "

There was no fixing, the lottery was inherently broken and unfixable.  

Suggesting the reward was 1000 is misinformed. It was a max of 1000, and a min of .1, and the overwheming majority of blocks were .1 reward.  Doog posted the chart where inflation increased after the lottery was stopped, you can look back to the last page or two to see it.

I do not need to be a coder to know that its only code !

Those "in the know" used the same excuse 3 years ago when they duped some/most of the community into thinking that scrypt asics were an impossibility.

Would you like to try again ?

[Hippie Tech]

If you do that will u give investors choice to trade their clam for same amount moneysupply of doogcoin?

Not for everyone of course. Lol. Only if your JD user ID is less than 50000. Or invested amount exceeds 4K clams. Anyway you will have a time (1-2 days) to buy some more clams and get your chance to jump on that train.

mm... Theres nothing like the fresh smell of ponzi pushers in the morning... TAKE A DEEP BREATH PEEPS ! lol

All hail the great Cryptofiat Bank of Doog !