NEM (XEM) Official Thread - 100% New Code - Easy To Use APIs

[makoto1337]

I would really rather the rich not get richer (I am an original stake holder here btw).  

I would really like to see the extra NEM put in a system that promotes the ecosystem.  

I am hoping we can figure out a good plan to put the NEM to use in a way that makes the entire NEM system better.  

Rockethead talked about the long game.  I think this is right on point.  

We can just give the money equally to the people who hold on BTT and the people that bought on AE and make them richer, or we can burn the stakes which essentially does the same thing.  We could also just give the main devs as a big bonus.  They have worked really hard to make this and probably deserve it, but I don't want to do any of these things.

I want to see extra NEM get paid forward and be used to make NEM a much stronger ecosystem down the road.  And yes, the end result is that the original BTT stakeholders, and the AE stake buyers, and even the devs will be much better off.

Do you know the "Marshmallow Experiment"?  It was conducted at Stanford by famous professors.  They found that little children that could see the long game and could delay their gratification for a bigger reward went on to be much more successful in life as adults.  We need to be the good kids in the Marshmallow Experiment here and believe that in the long run, we are better off by not trying to make ourselves richer, but by trying to get other people and third party devs into NEM.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experiment

why not give the rest away to new users? wouldnt it be in the interest of NEM to reach as many people as possible?

No, as continuously giving away coins mean that existing owners (especially those who paid for it on Nxt AE)  continue to lose money. We had one IPO -- not a hundred where you continue to give away coins forever. The new users should buy it . There should be reasons that they should be tempted to buy it.  

Aruracoin gave the whole country of Iceland "free" coins. It didn't gain "users" -- instead it killed aruracoin as those who got it for free immediately dumped them for BTC. Aurora is dead now.

i think you are pointing out a very valid conflict with free ipos. some people got it for free(or a minimal pocket change) at the start cause they were lucky enough to be at the right place at the right time, and the rest gets kinda left behind. so basically some get gifted, some not. that makes it even harder to convince people to invest into something, others got for nearly free.

This makes it necessary that you offer really strong reasons for new people to join the movement! Its hard to convince people to join something that gives and in the process of it give someone else a 1000% profit on his investment. Not to say its not gonna work!

All for the same reason why  unclaimed and sock coins should not be burnt. It will only consolidate the holdings of the balance of NS to a better position when most got them for literally next to nothing.

Agree. It would be better to actually use the non-claimed stakes for something useful that boosts the project in one way or another.

I think you have a simple conflict here.. people who already got their cheap stakes and want to have even more profit vs. people who stumbled upon NEM at a later point in time and want to join the movement without spending lots more than the original stakeholders. Id say its a basic greed game...

im quite excited how this one plays out

Absolutely, friggin' spot on.

The devs are going to have to look deep, really make a hard decision that truely benefits the project, because there will be alot of people who will be biased for their own gains - even those once thought of as prudent and honest. Baring in mind what you said, I propose that devs take things discussed with a pinch of salt.

This is a very important post! We definitely need to look at the "end game" and figure out how to get there.

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[juicejoyce]

Reading  comments from some NEM main members questioning people's reading skills/intelligence because they don't know what to do is rather insulting. What if english is not someone's first language? How are they able to follow this maze of information?

Point me to that post.

These are just two that I found quickly, but there are more:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=654845.msg9369257#msg9369257

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=654845.msg9298104#msg9298104

I agree that things are confusing. It would be nice if we could update the homepage to clearly list redemption info.

This page that xtester put together should help simplify, though, so please spread it around: https://medium.com/@xtester/updated-phase-2-redemption-guide-401e63b43344

Deadline is Nov 22 for stake redemption.

a Deadline  is must for all of us to be ready for the official launch.

[makoto1337]

What profit was there for CfP holders?  I can't do much with a thousand bucks.   Most of us have probably lost money on $hitcoins sometime in the past and for a lot of people (without knowing their trade history) that would offset any unrealized gains from holding NEMstake.  Not speaking from experience as my unrealized net gains are in the green but it's nothing life changing and I don't see why somebody would be envious.  No envy movement.


CfP and Asset exchange buyers are pretty much the same people.  My only regret is NEMstake isn't more cheaper because that would probably help distribution (note I said cheaper and not cheap or free)

Yes. Simply redistributing/burning unclaimed stakes/socks will be the equivalent of us walking or crawling a little faster.

NEM needs to transcend walking or crawling and grow wings to fly. That can only be done with a clear vision for an end game and the participation of many diverse people working together. That is what a movement is all about.

[jabo38]

Do we actually have to keep on downloading these things or does our monitor update?

Already lost a testnet account with like 8 million NEM in it.   

It should auto-update but webstart still seems to have some problems on some systems.

Great update by the devs!

I am using Windows 8.1 and I double clicked on the NOM icon in Metro.  NEM started with a single cick, updated to 0.4.17 automatically, and is running smooth.  All my coins and transaction history are there exactly as before.  I can confirm that I was able to switch to pirate language and other languages and back to English just fine. 

[Kmonk]

In what context does the statement correlate to Stockholm syndrome reaction? Care to elaborate?

I was referencing the numerous calls for banker involvement in this discussion, not makoto1337's statement.

Have you ever felt that you're being held hostage by the banking system or think it possible to identify with your aggressor in an attempt to defend one's ego?

On a side note... has a vote by stake holders in relation to unclaimed stakes been discussed yet?

[rockethead]

In what context does the statement correlate to Stockholm syndrome reaction? Care to elaborate?

I was referencing the numerous calls for banker involvement in this discussion, not makoto1337's statement.

Have you ever felt that you're being held hostage by the banking system or think it possible to identify with your aggressor in an attempt to defend one's ego?

On a side note... has a vote by stake holders in relation to unclaimed stakes been discussed yet?

OK point taken on the Stockholm Syndrome. I would use Rockethead approach. Work with them usurp them and then reign over.

The unclaimed stakes are still actively being discussed in the NEM forum. You may want to hop over there to see what have been discussed. The direction is to take these out of the control of Devs and the general consensus appears to be leaning towards ecosystem development and building beyond what the devs are delivering.

https://forum.nemcoin.com/index.php?topic=2501.0

[TaunSew]

In what context does the statement correlate to Stockholm syndrome reaction? Care to elaborate?

I was referencing the numerous calls for banker involvement in this discussion, not makoto1337's statement.

Have you ever felt that you're being held hostage by the banking system or think it possible to identify with your aggressor in an attempt to defend one's ego?

On a side note... has a vote by stake holders in relation to unclaimed stakes been discussed yet?

OK point taken on the Stockholm Syndrome. I would use Rockethead approach. Work with them usurp them and then reign over.

The unclaimed stakes are still actively being discussed in the NEM forum. You may want to hop over there to see what have been discussed. The direction is to take these out of the control of Devs and the general consensus appears to be leaning towards ecosystem development and building beyond what the devs are delivering.

https://forum.nemcoin.com/index.php?topic=2501.0

Bankers are not popular on this forum but most of this is about commercial bankers like Goldman Sachs and government central banks.   Granted our neighbourhood banks are also producing some inflation but we ordinary persons at least get some tangible benefit from them like financing & credit and safe accounting.


While you are being a sour grape it seems like most people are welcoming this Fidor development on other websites I've read.  As Rockethead wrote: 2 million unhappy people want decentralized accounts while 7 billion are content with centralized accounts.


The biggest hiccup with digital currencies is people think it is unsafe and they'll lose their funds to a hacker, a hard drive crash or the theft of their computer by a burglar.  Heck what if your phone is your wallet and you lose that to a simple street mugger or you accidentally dropped your phone into the river?

This fear is essentially removed if a regulated reliable bank will hold your coins, has more SSL than the SS themselves and will reimburse you in event of a freak hack or fraud.

This is in nutshell why the original banks were formed, to protect people's money and later on they evolved to provide services.


When I think of digital currencies only having these 2 million users (at best) when the technology should be used by 100 million to 1 billion, I think it's worth a chance to give these third party crypto banks a chance.  It's quite possible mainstreet will never come into digital currencies until they think it is a 110% safe to deposit their earnings and that level of safety / guarantee is likely only possible through a regulated crypto bank.

[Chris001]

Let's do this.

What kind of person, or groups of people, would be inclined to further research crypto if they heard about it?

Where are those people?

How do we get in touch with them?

This is a very simplified version of what every company that successfully gains new customers does.

This information needs to be broken down.

Does someone out there have any experience in this?

For NEM to be successful, it needs a superior product. This is done.

NEM needs capable leaders. Again, "check"

For NEM to be successful it must bring in people that have no idea about crypto into its community.

This is a discussion we should start having.
Let's not jump all over each others case, and just freely brainstorm. How do we target those who are the type that would be interested.

Like I said.

Who are they?
Where can they be found?
And what will be our approach?

[Kmonk]

While you are being a sour grape it seems like most people are welcoming this Fidor development on other websites I've read.  As Rockethead wrote: 2 million unhappy people want decentralized accounts while 7 billion are content with centralized accounts.

Not wanting to appear sour, but could you please explain to me how 7 billion people can be content with centralized accounts when approx 2.5 billion don't even have a bank account?

[TaunSew]

While you are being a sour grape it seems like most people are welcoming this Fidor development on other websites I've read.  As Rockethead wrote: 2 million unhappy people want decentralized accounts while 7 billion are content with centralized accounts.

Not wanting to appear sour, but could you please explain to me how 7 billion people can be content with centralized bank accounts when approx 2.5 billion don't even have a bank account?

Apparently content enough that they cannot be bothered to get a Bitcoin wallet.  I've been to several developing countries and even in the towns and villages there was somebody with internet access and a computer.

You can even find pictures online of makeshift internet cafes in refugee camps and squalors.

[Chris001]

While you are being a sour grape it seems like most people are welcoming this Fidor development on other websites I've read.  As Rockethead wrote: 2 million unhappy people want decentralized accounts while 7 billion are content with centralized accounts.

Not wanting to appear sour, but could you please explain to me how 7 billion people can be content with centralized bank accounts when approx 2.5 billion don't even have a bank account?

Apparently content enough that they cannot be bothered to get a Bitcoin wallet.  I've been to several developing countries and even in the towns and villages there was somebody with internet access and a computer.

You can even find pictures online of makeshift internet cafes in refugee camps and squalors.

Where are you guys trying to go with this discussion?

Please tie in where this debate can lead us that would make a positive impact on NEM.

Thanks because Im not being sarcastic, it just seems to be taking am argumentative tone, and Im sure that was not the intention when it started.

[xtester]

Guys, how about sending out PM's, so that stake holders actually know that phase 2 has started? I only found out through FaceBook that phase 2 started

i mailed pat about that already(about half an hour ago actually..) if he doesnt have time i should be able to send out.

OK, thats great.

Just for the info, Pat is sending PM's to NEM stakeholders right now.

[rockethead]

Who are they?
Where can they be found?
And what will be our approach?

Who are they? - Great programmers
Where can they be found? - Through our NEM Network
And what will be our approach? - Incentivize these great programmers with reward using unclaimed stakes, support AltNemo

If the above cannot be done, then we can talk until the cows come home and watch the world pass by us.

Amidst fuds and trollers, there are enough leaders and visionaries in NEM. We need "Indians" to work on projects.

[Kmonk]

Where are you guys trying to go with this discussion?

Please tie in where this debate can lead us that would make a positive impact on NEM.

Thanks

The basic jist is about how far we want to involve NEM with centralised institutions.

The causal bandying around of inaccurate statistics unchecked certainly won't help produce anything positive!

[makoto1337]

Who are they?
Where can they be found?
And what will be our approach?

Who are they? - Great programmers
Where can they be found? - Through our NEM Network
And what will be our approach? - Incentivize these great programmers with reward using unclaimed stakes, support AltNemo

If the above cannot be done, then we can talk until the cows come home and watch the world pass by us.

Amidst fuds and trollers, there are enough leaders and visionaries in NEM. We need "Indians" to work on projects.

Indians aren't the only programmers

Everyone wants to be a chieftain.

But yes, we need programmers at the beginning to build things on top of NEM. I think finding CSC students at universities is a great way.

[TaunSew]

Yes & No, at the current capitalization that is likely true.  On the other hand Bitcoin is $4.4 billion and Gavin is only making $180K-$200K as its' lead developer.  Technically a pittance as his counterpart in an actual $4.4 billion company would be getting all sort of equity options and other compensation pushing him way past that figure.

 Of course if NEM is a success and is worth $billions then it's possible the current developers (if they stayed on) would volunteer to take a $1 salary without alternative compensation just like Steve Jobs from 2003 until his passing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-dollar_salary

[makoto1337]

Yes & No, at the current capitalization that is likely true.  On the other hand Bitcoin is $4.4 billion and Gavin is only making $180K-$200K as its' lead developer.  Technically a pittance as his counterpart in an actual $4.4 billion company would be getting all sort of equity options and other compensation pushing him way past that figure.

 Of course if NEM is a success and is worth $billions then it's possible the current developers (if they stayed on) would volunteer to take a $1 salary without alternative compensation just like Steve Jobs from 2003 until his passing.

Yes, if the NEM mkt cap were in the billions, then it would pay off for us devs.

Despite the constant talk of 25% for the dev team, it is really broken down like this:

- 10% for devs up until V1 (this is shared by all of us for more than 1 year's work)
- 5% for ecosystem and marketing
- 10% for NEM, post-V1 (unclear what this will be used for)

So the core devs are only getting at most a few percent per dev. Compare that to Satoshi or other similar mysterious figures in AltCoins that won't be mentioned

[rockethead]

Who are they?
Where can they be found?
And what will be our approach?

Who are they? - Great programmers
Where can they be found? - Through our NEM Network
And what will be our approach? - Incentivize these great programmers with reward using unclaimed stakes, support AltNemo

If the above cannot be done, then we can talk until the cows come home and watch the world pass by us.

Amidst fuds and trollers, there are enough leaders and visionaries in NEM. We need "Indians" to work on projects.

Indians aren't the only programmers

Everyone wants to be a chieftain.

But yes, we need programmers at the beginning to build things on top of NEM. I think finding CSC students at universities is a great way.

You seem to mean Indians from India. My connotation is Chief Sitting Bulls vis-a-vis Red Indians. Too many chiefs, no warriors. ;-)

[Chris001]

Who are they?
Where can they be found?
And what will be our approach?

Who are they? - Great programmers
Where can they be found? - Through our NEM Network
And what will be our approach? - Incentivize these great programmers with reward using unclaimed stakes, support AltNemo

If the above cannot be done, then we can talk until the cows come home and watch the world pass by us.

Amidst fuds and trollers, there are enough leaders and visionaries in NEM. We need "Indians" to work on projects.

Indians aren't the only programmers

Everyone wants to be a chieftain.

But yes, we need programmers at the beginning to build things on top of NEM. I think finding CSC students at universities is a great way.

Ok, this is a great start.

Programmers. How do we find programmers from outside the crypto community? Do we go to other forums theyy frequent and let them know how they can be a part of our movement? Are there organizations they are a part of that we can approach? Where else can we find them?

CSC students. How do we approach them? What groups are they a part of? Do we have a CSC student that is part of the community now that would have an interest in helping out with this?

These are two great ideas of how to grow the community past those that already are involved in crypto.

What are some others that in general are not involved in crypto, but would be the type that would be interested if approached correctly?

Two big ones so far, who else?

[TaunSew]

Who are they?
Where can they be found?
And what will be our approach?

Who are they? - Great programmers
Where can they be found? - Through our NEM Network
And what will be our approach? - Incentivize these great programmers with reward using unclaimed stakes, support AltNemo

If the above cannot be done, then we can talk until the cows come home and watch the world pass by us.

Amidst fuds and trollers, there are enough leaders and visionaries in NEM. We need "Indians" to work on projects.

Indians aren't the only programmers

Everyone wants to be a chieftain.

But yes, we need programmers at the beginning to build things on top of NEM. I think finding CSC students at universities is a great way.

Ok, this is a great start.

Programmers. How do we find programmers from outside the crypto community? Do we go to other forums theyy frequent and let them know how they can be a part of our movement? Are there organizations they are a part of that we can approach? Where else can we find them?

CSC students. How do we approach them? What groups are they a part of? Do we have a CSC student that is part of the community now that would have an interest in helping out with this?

That is two great ideas of how to grow the community past those that already are involved in crypto.

What are some others that in general are not involved in crypto, but would be the type that would interested if approached correctly?

Two big ones so far, who else?

I think Makoto can be a bit of an idealist.  In practical terms nobody is going to scour the universities to shake up students who are busy with assignments, midterms and finals.  This is something that already had been in *cannot be mentioned* alternate which has been hitting up Prague's universities for talent and hasn't had any success.


Given the current capitalization and funding the best way to get funding is to advertise actual employment to developers in cheaper cost of labour countries which Nemsters have connections.  This means countries like Vietnam, Philippines, China, Ukraine or even Latin America.    This means online job postings and somebody would have to play human resources.

No boiler room (slave labour) developers as this is the new economy movement and we should be supporting "fair trade developers" (like fair trade coffee) and it doesn't cost that much to provide a middle class livelihood in a lot of those countries.