Butterflylabs Huge SCAM

[charleshoskinson]

Under the original plan a 5 Gh/s low wattage device I could just set and forget about made the ROI meaningless to me. I saw it as my contribution to bitcoin regardless of return. Under the price points, shipping schedule and TDP window, it makes no sense to me.

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[shatter]

wow nice thread

[mybitcoinid]

yes, it's fun

[charleshoskinson]

Like my recap?

[Inaba]

The burden of proof lies with you. You can't just say "false!" and move on. PROVE IT'S FALSE.
I was looking to purchase THREE of the BFL 50GH/s rigs, but from what I've gathered from this thread, by the time I GET a rig, It would be worthless to have invested the 8 grand to do it.

That's not how burden of proof works.  The burden of proof lies upon the person making the claim.  In this case, Charlie is making a claim but has nothing to back it up with.  The burden of proof lies upon him to prove his claims.  That's how burden of proof works.

To add insult to that injury, the fact that all of his questions have been answered (many times over, I might add) on this and the BFL forums just further bellies the fact that he is simply a troll instead of a "concerned citizen" as he tries to play himself off as. 

[Aahzman]

What about this guy? http://codinginmysleep.com/bfl-jalapeno-unboxing-and-demo/

He has one.

(1) This does not mean BFL is not a ponzi scheme. Just because they built a product in no way vets the company's operations
(2) BFL has never demonstrated a working 25, 50, and 1500 GH/s unit
(3) They accepted millions of dollars in preorder money and have yet to ship any units to the general public in the queue
(4) No reliability testing has been done on these units
(5) BFL has not been audited and thus we don't know if they have been using their ASICs to mine until it's no longer profitable and then ship. (Double dipping)

Filed your lawsuit yet, Chuck?

[charleshoskinson]

As I said before. I am going to wait and see both shipment volume and reviews from members of this forum as they receive them.

[Richy_T]

(1) This does not mean BFL is not a ponzi scheme.

No, what means that it is not a Ponzi scheme is that it does not have the essential aspects of a Ponzi scheme even if it turns out they are commiting some other kind of fraud or incompetent or simply unlucky or whatever else you might want to ascribe their tardy delivery schedule to.

[saberu]

BFL most likely did premine with all the devices they are sold. They most likely did use pre-order capital to buy the stock in the first place.

But FFS guys, what do you expect? There is NO MORAL CODE in capitalism, it's about profit. You are all just way too trusting.

I have to be trusting too when I deal with people, but I much prefer dealing with people directly than dealing with companies. Especially companies that expect pre orders months in advance.

BFL is not a scam. But are they very shady and profiting from everyone else at their expense? Damn right they are.

Almost anyone couldv made a flashy website, paid a company to design an FPGA then start getting in pre-order money to pay for the FPGA's in the first place. I bet this company started on almost no capital.

And every step of the way they are relying on the desperation of the Bitcoin community to fund their business startup with pre-order money.

What they are doing is/was very immoral, but is anyone going to stop them? No.

Does the wider community still like BFL? Yes because of the promise of ASIC's sold to the wider community, but it seems BFL could be premining with everyone's orders and no one would even know.

BFL are like the Umbrella corporation. They sell a bunch of devices to everyone but in the end only they are profiting. Just like Umbrella making viruses and selling them to all the countries, then when a virus takes over the world Umbrella has the power to control the world.

BFL have become very rich off this scheme, there is no doubt about it. On their way to a billion dollars off the back of all your pre-order money.

[charleshoskinson]

Ponzi schemes can and often do have a product. Even if an asic exists if they spent our preorder money on developing it they would need new preorders to service the original preorders. That is a ponzi scheme. Bernie madoff paid a lot of people. He just couldn't do it without continuous new money

[Richy_T]

First line of Wikipedia

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation.

[hippylabrat]

Maybe these apply:

FERENGI RULES OF ACQUISITION
---------------------------------
Once you have their money ... never give it back.
Never pay more for an acquisition than you have to.
Never allow family to stand in the way of opportunity.
A man is only worth the sum of his possessions. (From Enterprise, episode "Acquisition"; sloppy script-writing, as rule 6 (see above) was already given in DS9)
Keep your ears open.
Small print leads to large risk.
Opportunity plus instinct equals profit.
Greed is eternal.
Anything worth doing is worth doing for money.
A deal is a deal ... until a better one comes along.
A contract is a contract is a contract (but only between Ferengi).
A Ferengi without profit is no Ferengi at all.
Satisfaction is not guaranteed.
Never place friendship above profit.
A wise man can hear profit in the wind.
Nothing is more important than your health--except for your money.
There's nothing more dangerous than an honest businessman.
Never make fun of a Ferengi's mother ... insult something he cares about instead.
It never hurts to suck up to the boss.
War is good for business.
Peace is good for business.
She can touch your lobes but never your latinum.
Profit is its own reward.
Never confuse wisdom with luck.
Expand, or die.
Don't trust a man wearing a better suit than your own.
The bigger the smile, the sharper the knife.
Females and finance don't mix.
Never ask when you can take.
Good customers are as rare as latinum -- treasure them.
There is no substitute for success.
Free advice is seldom cheap.
Keep your lies consistent.
The riskier the road, the greater the profit.
Win or lose, there's always Hyperian beetle snuff.
Home is where the heart is ... but the stars are made of latinum.
Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies.
Beware of the Vulcan greed for knowledge.
The flimsier the product, the higher the price.
Never let the competition know what you're thinking.
Ask not what your profits can do for you, but what you can do for your profits.
Females and finances don't mix.
Enough ... is never enough.
Every man has his price. (DS9 season 6, episode 19 - "In the Pale Moonlight")
Trust is the biggest liability of all.
Nature decays, but latinum lasts forever.
Sleep can interfere with profit. (DS9 season 2, episode 7 - "Rules of Acquisition")
Faith moves mountains ... of inventory.
There is no honour in poverty.
Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
Treat people in your debt like family ... exploit them.
Never have sex with the boss's sister.
Always have sex with the boss.
You can't free a fish from water.
Everything is for sale, even friendship.
Even a blind man can recognize the glow of latinum.
You can't make a deal if you're dead. (DS9 season 7, episode 8 - "The Siege of AR-558")
Wives serve, brothers inherit.
Only fools pay retail.
There's nothing wrong with charity ... as long as it winds up in your pocket.
Even in the worst of times someone turns a profit.
Whisper your way to success. (DS9 season 7, episode 9 - "Covenant")
Know your enemies ... but do business with them always.
Not even dishonesty can tarnish the shine of profit.
Let others keep their reputation. You keep their money.
Hear all, trust nothing.
Never cheat a Klingon ... unless you're sure you can get away with it.
It's always good business to know about new customers before they walk in the door.
The justification for profit is profit.
New customers are like razortoothed grubworms. They can be succulent, but sometimes they can bite back.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer.
Employees are rungs on the ladder of success. Don't hesitate to step on them.
Never begin a negotiation on an empty stomach.
You can't free a fish from water.
Always know what you're buying.
Beware the man who doesn't make time for oo-mox.
Latinum lasts longer than lust.
You can't buy fate.
Never be afraid to mislabel a product.
More is good ... all is better.
A wife is a luxury ... a smart accountant is a necessity.
A wealthy man can afford anything except a conscience.
Never allow doubt to tarnish your love of latinum.
When in doubt, lie.
Deep down everyone's a Ferengi.
No good deed ever goes unpunished.
--------------------------------------------------

If you replace "Ferengi" with Bitminer, and "Latinum" with Bitcoin... that about sums it up.

[massnerder]

To add insult to that injury, the fact that all of his questions have been answered (many times over, I might add) on this and the BFL forums just further bellies the fact that he is simply a troll instead of a "concerned citizen" as he tries to play himself off as. 

I can see what you're saying, but still think pasting a link or 2 is way easier than even typing out that sentence.  What's the problem?

What about newbies like me or others that will see this thread but may not have the time to go searching for the answers you say are out there?

Would it not be easier to just post the links that back up your stance, even if it is beating the dead horse?  That way everyone who sees the thread will have more to go on than 2 guys slinging shit at each other.

I still agree with the hippie above, you can't just say "FALSE!" and expect people to take it at face value.  Beat the dead horse.  Repost the links.  Make it easier on your potential customers to make a decision.  It looks a whole lot better than sitting here arguing about it.

[Inaba]

First line of Wikipedia

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation.

Dude, don't try to use facts and logic to convince Charie; Charlie is immune to logic and facts just bounce right off him.

[charleshoskinson]

Replace money with product. If I sell something that doesn't exist and I spend all my money trying to develop it, then I don't have enough money to actually built it once its finished. Thus I need more money to service the original orders. And then I need more money to service the new orders. The circle doesn't stop. Unless you make enough money in profit to recoup the original R&D cost. But they are committed to developing the minirig which will likely put them further in the red.

[Richy_T]

Replace money with product.

You can't as it's part of the definition. It's like saying stealing an apple is grand-theft-auto if you replace "Car" with "fruit".

[charleshoskinson]

Wikipedia's definition isn't cannon:

http://www.sec.gov/spotlight/enf-actions-ponzi.shtml

If I promise you something for amount XYZ and I need a future investor to deliver it and then another another for that investor, I have committed fraud. You can code it anyway you like, it isn't self-sustaining nor ends well for the vast majority of people involved.

But I'm done with this debate. I've had my say and so did Josh. I won't post in this thread anymore.

[lemonys]

Saw this eBay listing for "use" of his BFL...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-GH-s-Bitcoin-Mining-for-3-months-24-7-BitForce-Butterfly-Labs-/151034831885?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item232a60a40d

This seems to be some dude trying to hedge his bet against his BFL being shipped to him after it has become unprofitable.

Note at the bottom:
"9) Your mining will start when we get our equipment all set up and working "

Gotta love it.

[jordaninthesky]

First line of Wikipedia

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation.

Dude, don't try to use facts and logic to convince Charie; Charlie is immune to logic and facts just bounce right off him.

If the item was paid for using a customer's money who is after in queue, then effectively, it is a ponzi scheme.  Jut because there is snake oil in the equation does not mean that there is not fraud.  Of course nobody would want to hear what a lawyer has to say.

[ScaryHash]

There have been pictures of people unpacking the jalepenos and stuff.

So, I doubt it's all vaporware.

I'm thinking of ordering one myself, once I get my rigs all stable.