Butterflylabs Huge SCAM

[Richy_T]

First line of Wikipedia

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation.

Dude, don't try to use facts and logic to convince Charie; Charlie is immune to logic and facts just bounce right off him.

If the item was paid for using a customer's money who is after in queue, then effectively, it is a ponzi scheme.  Jut because there is snake oil in the equation does not mean that there is not fraud.  Of course nobody would want to hear what a lawyer has to say.

Moses was a man, all men are mortal, therefore all men are Moses?

Just because there is fraud* doesn't not imply a Ponzi scheme. Do words mean anything to people anymore?




*This is a generalization. I am not saying there is or is not in the case of BFL.

[1714911780]

1714911780

[jordaninthesky]

The part of the fraud is the part of the Ponzi.  In this sense, it is an aspect of potential BFL schematic.  But it doesn't mean it isn't going to contribute positive too.  The less the better, obviously.

And because Moses is can man see through his eye, and who knows the limits of empathy?  Only infinite possibilities of expression.  Who is not "I am"?

[kevcoins]

they are using the client money for their own investments and for their own mining.

[roy7]

they are using the client money for their own investments and for their own mining.

According to you (and many others). There's no factual evidence of that I've ever seen someone share in these threads yet. Just assumptions and opinions. (Or maybe projecting what they would do themselves in BFL's shoes.) Maybe the people who can't understand the definition of a Ponzi scheme should look up "libel" and see if that one is more clear.

[firefop]

they are using the client money for their own investments and for their own mining.

According to you (and many others). There's no factual evidence of that I've ever seen someone share in these threads yet. Just assumptions and opinions. (Or maybe projecting what they would do themselves in BFL's shoes.) Maybe the people who can't understand the definition of a Ponzi scheme should look up "libel" and see if that one is more clear.

HA! very nice point. such statements could very possibly be libel... but that would be up to a court to decide. :p

[DM90]

Buy the Avalon ASIC chips. Problem solved.

[Miklosh Balsa]

I'm sure the people standing in line at Jonestown for their cyanide-laced Flavor-Aid had similar hopes.

[larry17]

As long as there is some profit to be made I will mine...to cover my hardware costs.

[testie]

There is just too much 'unknowns' with BFL.. The fact that all 'reviewers' that received their units, also have 'pre-order now' links does not give much confidence!

[BitGlory]

So, Butterfly Labs wants to convince us that with 5 of these toasters:

https://products.butterflylabs.com/homepage/50-gh-s-bitcoin-miner.html

We can produce the hash rate of pyramining, that use this hardware:

https://www.bitcoin-italia.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=85

lol

[Chuck Finley]

HA! very nice point. such statements could very possibly be libel... but that would be up to a court to decide. :p

Even if the statements were defamatory you'd have to prove damages if you expected to get anything out of it. Given the cost of taking a lawsuit to trial (not even considering the fact that there would likely be conflict issues) and that even if they obtained judgment they'd be unlikely to collect anything significant from the average person (ie: not a company with lots of money/assets to seize) I highly doubt the average keyboard commando has to worry about a big defamation suit.

I mean besides porn isn't slander and misinformation what the internet is all about? 

[jordaninthesky]

Okay.  So Josh made a bet for a 1000 BTC, lost, and is now doing his usual spin.  BFL is donating 100,000 to BTC "charitY".

I do not know how they aren't under full investigation right now.

[jordaninthesky]

Oh look, a BFL thread on Bitcointalk with the same old tripe and baseless arguments by trolls. I don't think many of you claiming they are a Ponzi scheme actually know what one is and I'm not sure the people who claim they have been mining with your orders know how to read the network hashrate charts. It would be completely transparent if they were mining as it would add a crap-ton of hashing power to the network. Sure, BFL has experienced delays but calling them incompetent is one thing, but calling them a scam/Ponzi is an entirely different and more serious charge. If you own a BFL preorder and don't feel comfortable with it, ask them for a refund and they will most likely comply as they have been doing for everyone else, from what I've seen. If you don't have a BFL preorder, then quit repeating the same baseless accusations over and over again. It's really as simple as that.

The only way we could prove it is to have BTC break, then everyone will demand a refund.  And BFL would be able to refund each and every one of them. =)

Btw, I'm a "sucker" who got into it July-October.  As uncomfortable I am with having made an investment that has yet to show promise, I'm more uncomfortable in taking it back, after the fact.  It's a catch-22 where I get to watch Josh molest my "investment" before I get what I might have paid for.

[SolidSnke]

true

[0150r]

I think many of you are confused as to what a ponzi scheme is...in order for it to be a ponzi scheme, initial investors would be making money off of later investors money. Being that no one is making any money (other than reviewers), it's not possible for this to be a ponzi scheme.

Here's how it would have to be for BFL to be a ponzi scheme:

BFL wouldn't sell you a product...they would have to charge you to build and operate one for you. This would be a "magic box" that makes you money that you don't get to examine (it just "works" and you have to trust it).

Group A invests money into it.
Group A is given some of their investment back.
Hearing the news that people are making money, Group B invests.
Group A and B are getting returns off group B's money.
Group C invests.
Groups A, B, and C get some of group C's money.
....
....
....
The scheme works until they can't find enough new money to pay out the profits of everyone before it. ( Hey, doesn't Social Security work this way?   )

That is how a ponzi scheme works. Being that no pre-orders have made any money, there is no possible way for this to fit the description of a ponzi scheme.

A ponzi scheme is a type of fraud, but not all fraud is a ponzi scheme.

[jordaninthesky]

It's worse than a ponzi scheme because people who aren't investors are profiting off of investors money.  lol duh.

It is classy how they are doing it in front of everyone's face.  Here's one for public copulation.

[massnerder]

As a newbie who has done many hours of research, I can't say very much about BFL in general.

What is pretty obvious is that these things probably won't be worth the investment by the time people start to actually get them, assuming they do ship.  We can debate whether they are fraudulent or just incompetent, but IMHO it really doesn't matter one way or the other.  If I invest some money into a BFL device and actually get it someday, the mining difficulty will have risen so much that it won't be worth running for anybody other than the very first few who get them, except of course for the 'cool' factor.  Whether they are legit or not, it seems that either way I would lose.  At least, that's what I have gathered from the last week or trying to catch up on the issue...  Am I wrong?  Why / Why not?

Two factors that drove my decision (sofar) against throwing any money at BFL were the highly unprofessional conduct of the poster in this thread (like it or not, you represent the company)- his arguing, name calling, and refusal to simply post links to the answers to many folks questions.  All because he claims these questions have been answered many times and the answers are out there for all to see.  Nobody is asking that he sit there and type out the answers again, but posting a link would be far more effective both for the company as a whole and for his position in the discussion while requiring much less effort on his part than arguing with people.  The more links there are out there to the same answers many people seek, the less people will be asking, and less people would be speculating on the alleged shady nature of their operation.  Not to mention that it is just bad customer service to make folks go out and search for those answers when a simple copy/paste would make many readers happy.  Secondly, these devices are bitcoin specific and won't be much good for mining others like litecoin.  So assuming I did get a unit and mine with it, once the maximum amount of bitcoins have been mined I now own a really fancy paperweight.

[RAVENCROW]

anyone know what the estimated difficulty will be once all there orders ship out apparently tho if you didn't order big your gonna be sol?

[jordaninthesky]

As a newbie who has done many hours of research, I can't say very much about BFL in general.

What is pretty obvious is that these things probably won't be worth the investment by the time people start to actually get them, assuming they do ship.  We can debate whether they are fraudulent or just incompetent, but IMHO it really doesn't matter one way or the other.  If I invest some money into a BFL device and actually get it someday, the mining difficulty will have risen so much that it won't be worth running for anybody other than the very first few who get them, except of course for the 'cool' factor.  Whether they are legit or not, it seems that either way I would lose.  At least, that's what I have gathered from the last week or trying to catch up on the issue...  Am I wrong?  Why / Why not?

Two factors that drove my decision (sofar) against throwing any money at BFL were the highly unprofessional conduct of the poster in this thread (like it or not, you represent the company)- his arguing, name calling, and refusal to simply post links to the answers to many folks questions.  All because he claims these questions have been answered many times and the answers are out there for all to see.  Nobody is asking that he sit there and type out the answers again, but posting a link would be far more effective both for the company as a whole and for his position in the discussion while requiring much less effort on his part than arguing with people.  The more links there are out there to the same answers many people seek, the less people will be asking, and less people would be speculating on the alleged shady nature of their operation.  Not to mention that it is just bad customer service to make folks go out and search for those answers when a simple copy/paste would make many readers happy.  Secondly, these devices are bitcoin specific and won't be much good for mining others like litecoin.  So assuming I did get a unit and mine with it, once the maximum amount of bitcoins have been mined I now own a really fancy paperweight.

It is hard to say, but it seems like we might go through another phase where we have to pay for power at some point.  It might be possible that people will take on litecoin as btc 2.0 because of all the shit associated with key-BTC players.  I could be totally wrong, but I like speculation.

[shapemaker]

anyone know what the estimated difficulty will be once all there orders ship out apparently tho if you didn't order big your gonna be sol?

Pretty much anyone without a significant hashrate investment near the end of the year (when BFL might be close to finished shipping the current orders) won't be making much BTC. Caveat emptor of course, but if DIY Avalon chip boards start becoming online around august, difficulty will skyrocket by then.