Health and Religion

[CoinCube]

You are being childish says the guy who wants to abolish the first amendment of the US constitution. Freedom of religion must go of course if we are going to make it illegal for parents to share their religious beliefs with their children.

My moral standard is superior says the guy who insists his ideological opponents are not only without legitimacy but so crazy and dangerous that should be institutionalized so a team of "medical professionals" can teach them to think in the approved manner.

The secular legal frameworks will keep people in check says the guy who is proposing a road to government tyranny and dystopia so blatantly that it sounds like the prequel to Orwell's 1984.

Honestly I don't really know what to say.
I am baffled that you cannot seem to see the darkness in your dreams of secular utopia.

In my Argument for God I made the case that rejection of God starts a gradual but progressive slide towards totalitarianism.

You are a data point supporting my claim. Thank you for providing a real life example of how one can embrace tyranny after rejecting God.
 

You live in a carefully constructed bubble.  Why can't you answer questions about the Bible?  Too close to the foundation of your bubble?

Your 'claims 1-8' are laughable.  I answered them all.

Religion is all about coercion.  Coming from the guy who values freedom that is kind of ironic, LOL.

I have answered your questions about the Bible. However, I am far from an expert so I have also recommended you examine the works of others who have more expertise then I do.

I find it amusing that you now describe all of my claims as laughable when as far as I can tell you did not dispute any of my first four claims. You even stated you agreed with claim #4 in your comments here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg36251129#msg36251129

You also never really challenged my claims 5-8 an oversight I previously highlighted.

I think you might have missed a large portion of my reasoning. Please see claims #5-9
...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg36246134#msg36246134

I believe they answer most of your questions above. If you feel they do not please re highlight the area needing clarification.

My one liner moral system suppresses defection without reliance on a supernatural stick.  Not sure what is your point...

Your only argument was that somehow your single moral principle in isolation was sufficient making my overall position unnecessary.

With all do respect your moral principle is clearly insufficient and this is demonstrated by the conclusions you are drawing from it.

You claim that I am totally insane. So crazy that I need a team of professionals to help me learn to think correctly. You claim that because I will teach my children what I genuinely believe to be true that I am also a child abuser who's children need to be ripped from me and their home.

Yet what is my crime? I have committed none. I simply disagree with you about the nature of reality. For this thought crime you seek to turn the might of the state against me and use it to force me to accept your worldview at the point of a gun or see my family destroyed.

I realize you think this is all totally justified. Part of the unpleasantness necessary to bring about your dreams of secular utopia. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs yadda yadda yadda.

The Bible indeed has a lot of wisdom in it. It even talks about destructive ideologies like yours.

Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

My beliefs do not demand I force you to conform to my worldview. I don't make the claim that you need psychiatric help or that your children should be taken from you. Yet you accuse me of coercion when that is the very thing you seek to unleash upon the world.

You worldview is false and I believe that is clear enough to be obvious at this point to any objective reader.

[1714917631]

1714917631

[CoinCube]

Trans-formative? You better look up the definition of the word.

The Bible is opposite of being transformative. The ideas presented in the Bible kept women in servitude for millennia.

Any opposition to what the Bible said was swiftly dealt with burning on the stake, or chopping off heads.  This religion was introduced by force all across Europe and from there it spread by sword all over the world.  If this is what you mean by transformative, then I agree.  It transformed the world by killing millions.

Transformative
http://www.yourdictionary.com/transformative
adjective
"The definition of transformative is something, such as a lesson or experience, that inspires change or causes a shift in viewpoint."

I think you lack an understanding of human history and the arc of our progress over time.

You talk about the crimes of the ancients and try to apply modern standards of behavior and judge them. That is foolish. If you want to judge the ancient's be they Zeus worshiping vikings, Non-denominational Mongols, or Christian Europeans you need to judge them in the context of the world those ancients lived in.

There are reasons that the modern world rose up out of the heart of the west and not elsewhere. Those reasons are deeply related to the culture of the west and its religious traditions.

Progressive secular thought brought end of racism, improved human rights, abolishment of slavery, equal rights to both genders, gay rights etc.  Without secularism and scientific revolution we would not be having this conversation; you (and people like you) would simply come to my house and kill me.  

Progressive secular thought also brought us Communism, mass abortion, shattered homes where anywhere from 40-50% of children are born out of wedlock, divorce rates of 50% or more, huge increases in clinical depression in our youth with almost a 40 percent increase in clinical depression just the last 10 years and many other wonders of modernity.

I have already told you I respect the right of individuals to make their own choices even if I think they are bad choices. As an atheist you could have lived quite comfortably in the United States at any time from the founding of its constitution (where freedom of religion is codified) to the present day. No one is threatening to come to your house and kill you. You are the only one pushing a totalitarian agenda.

[CoinCube]

Ancient crimes?  Are you kidding me?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_executed_for_witchcraft

Thanks to scientific revolution and secular thought you guys can flush toilets...

From your link above

"It has been estimated that tens of thousands of people were executed for witchcraft in Europe and the American colonies over several hundred years. Although it is not possible to ascertain the exact number, modern scholars estimate around 40,000–50,000"

50,000 people dead pretty messed up I agree. Now let's look at the track record of secular atheism.

1) "In February 1989, two years before the fall of the Soviet Union, a research paper by Georgian historian Roy Aleksandrovich Medvedev published in the weekly tabloid Argumenti i Fakti estimated that the death toll directly attributable to Stalin’s rule amounted to some 20 million lives (on top of the estimated 20 million Soviet troops and civilians who perished in the Second World War), for a total tally of 40 million."
How Many People Did Joseph Stalin Kill?
http://www.ibtimes.com/how-many-people-did-joseph-stalin-kill-1111789?amp=1

2) "According to the authoritative “Black Book of Communism,” an estimated 65 million Chinese died as a result of Mao’s repeated, merciless attempts to create a new “socialist” China. Anyone who got in his way was done away with -- by execution, imprisonment or forced famine."
The Legacy of Mao Zedong is Mass Murder
https://www.heritage.org/asia/commentary/the-legacy-mao-zedong-mass-murder

So yes 50,000 is a big number but what you seem to be unable to grasp is that this is a drop in the bucket. Religion in the form of Christianity dramatically mitigates the murderous and evil nature of humanity. It does not eliminate it nor are religious institutions free of human evil and corruption. As humanity turned away from God in the 20th century that restraint was lost and the death toll unsurprising climbed from the thousands to the millions.

BTW, in the US it is a political suicide to be openly non-religious.  How many atheists do you have in your congress?

Talk about under representation, LOL.

We are very fortunate. There is still hope in my opinion that the US can halt its secular decay. People are starting to wake up to the downsides of the secular nihilistic worldview.

You keep mentioning the scientific revolution and the secular worldview in the same sentence in an attempt to give credit to the latter that belongs with the former. Those terms are not synonyms and science is entirely compatible with non secular beliefs.

[Astargath]

Ancient crimes?  Are you kidding me?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_executed_for_witchcraft

Thanks to scientific revolution and secular thought you guys can flush toilets...

From your link above

"It has been estimated that tens of thousands of people were executed for witchcraft in Europe and the American colonies over several hundred years. Although it is not possible to ascertain the exact number, modern scholars estimate around 40,000–50,000"

50,000 people dead pretty messed up I agree. Now let's look at the track record of secular atheism.

1) "In February 1989, two years before the fall of the Soviet Union, a research paper by Georgian historian Roy Aleksandrovich Medvedev published in the weekly tabloid Argumenti i Fakti estimated that the death toll directly attributable to Stalin’s rule amounted to some 20 million lives (on top of the estimated 20 million Soviet troops and civilians who perished in the Second World War), for a total tally of 40 million."
How Many People Did Joseph Stalin Kill?
http://www.ibtimes.com/how-many-people-did-joseph-stalin-kill-1111789?amp=1

2) "According to the authoritative “Black Book of Communism,” an estimated 65 million Chinese died as a result of Mao’s repeated, merciless attempts to create a new “socialist” China. Anyone who got in his way was done away with -- by execution, imprisonment or forced famine."
The Legacy of Mao Zedong is Mass Murder
https://www.heritage.org/asia/commentary/the-legacy-mao-zedong-mass-murder

So yes 50,000 is a big number but what you seem to be unable to grasp is that this is a drop in the bucket. Religion in the form of Christianity dramatically mitigates the murderous and evil nature of humanity. It does not eliminate it nor are religious institutions free of human evil and corruption. As humanity turned away from God in the 20th century that restraint was lost and the death toll unsurprising climbed from the thousands to the millions.

BTW, in the US it is a political suicide to be openly non-religious.  How many atheists do you have in your congress?

Talk about under representation, LOL.

We are very fortunate. There is still hope in my opinion that the US can halt its secular decay. People are starting to wake up to the downsides of the secular nihilistic worldview.

You keep mentioning the scientific revolution and the secular worldview in the same sentence in an attempt to give credit to the latter that belongs with the former. Those terms are not synonyms and science is entirely compatible with non secular beliefs.

You really need to go back to school if you think science is compatible with religion.

Science uses the scientific method to discover what is true, religion just states what is true.

A big difference.

Science discovered that your Christian ideology is wrong by discovering that the Earth is not flat and that Earth is not in the center of the universe, that humans evolved from the same common ancestor as did chimpanzees not from dirt in case of a man and rib bone in case of a woman.

Your comparison of atrocities done by Christians to those  done by Communists tells me you are scratching the bottom of the barrel for arguments.  I hope you are not justifying murders with other murders that will happen in the future.  This 'argument' is the same argument Islamists are using to justify atrocities done in the name of their religion.
"Look Christians did crusades so why are you singling us out?".

That is not a defence.  It is like saying to the judge: "Your Honor I killed the lady because my neighbor killed her husband.  I am not so bad you see..."

Lack of responsibility for the damage religion did in the past and is doing today is appalling.

You literally object when I say don't teach children nonsense from the Bible.  Not only you object, you think you are justified.  Your logic follows the same rationalization the prosecutors of Giordano Bruno followed.

Another big difference is that science is evolving, sometimes is wrong and scientists accept that, that's why some scientific theories are changed sometimes almost entirely. On the other hand religion is not evolving, it's the same books as before, there is nothing new to it and theists never EVER will admit they are wrong on ANYTHING. Even though it is proven beyond a doubt that ghosts, demons or witches are not real they still wont admit it.

[_Gajah]

I think health interest is the main goal in the world but if we / you believe in religion or god,
Religion is important because if we believe in religion we also believe that there is a world / nature after the world (the earth),
So from both options are equally important in their own nature.

[joebrook]

Ancient crimes?  Are you kidding me?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_executed_for_witchcraft

Thanks to scientific revolution and secular thought you guys can flush toilets...

From your link above

"It has been estimated that tens of thousands of people were executed for witchcraft in Europe and the American colonies over several hundred years. Although it is not possible to ascertain the exact number, modern scholars estimate around 40,000–50,000"

50,000 people dead pretty messed up I agree. Now let's look at the track record of secular atheism.

1) "In February 1989, two years before the fall of the Soviet Union, a research paper by Georgian historian Roy Aleksandrovich Medvedev published in the weekly tabloid Argumenti i Fakti estimated that the death toll directly attributable to Stalin’s rule amounted to some 20 million lives (on top of the estimated 20 million Soviet troops and civilians who perished in the Second World War), for a total tally of 40 million."
How Many People Did Joseph Stalin Kill?
http://www.ibtimes.com/how-many-people-did-joseph-stalin-kill-1111789?amp=1

2) "According to the authoritative “Black Book of Communism,” an estimated 65 million Chinese died as a result of Mao’s repeated, merciless attempts to create a new “socialist” China. Anyone who got in his way was done away with -- by execution, imprisonment or forced famine."
The Legacy of Mao Zedong is Mass Murder
https://www.heritage.org/asia/commentary/the-legacy-mao-zedong-mass-murder

So yes 50,000 is a big number but what you seem to be unable to grasp is that this is a drop in the bucket. Religion in the form of Christianity dramatically mitigates the murderous and evil nature of humanity. It does not eliminate it nor are religious institutions free of human evil and corruption. As humanity turned away from God in the 20th century that restraint was lost and the death toll unsurprising climbed from the thousands to the millions.

BTW, in the US it is a political suicide to be openly non-religious.  How many atheists do you have in your congress?

Talk about under representation, LOL.

We are very fortunate. There is still hope in my opinion that the US can halt its secular decay. People are starting to wake up to the downsides of the secular nihilistic worldview.

You keep mentioning the scientific revolution and the secular worldview in the same sentence in an attempt to give credit to the latter that belongs with the former. Those terms are not synonyms and science is entirely compatible with non secular beliefs.

You really need to go back to school if you think science is compatible with religion.

Science uses the scientific method to discover what is true, religion just states what is true.

A big difference.

Science discovered that your Christian ideology is wrong by discovering that the Earth is not flat and that Earth is not in the center of the universe, that humans evolved from the same common ancestor as did chimpanzees not from dirt in case of a man and rib bone in case of a woman.

Your comparison of atrocities done by Christians to those  done by Communists tells me you are scratching the bottom of the barrel for arguments.  I hope you are not justifying murders with other murders that will happen in the future.  This 'argument' is the same argument Islamists are using to justify atrocities done in the name of their religion.
"Look Christians did crusades so why are you singling us out?".

That is not a defence.  It is like saying to the judge: "Your Honor I killed the lady because my neighbor killed her husband.  I am not so bad you see..."

Lack of responsibility for the damage religion did in the past and is doing today is appalling.

You literally object when I say don't teach children nonsense from the Bible.  Not only you object, you think you are justified.  Your logic follows the same rationalization the prosecutors of Giordano Bruno followed.

Another big difference is that science is evolving, sometimes is wrong and scientists accept that, that's why some scientific theories are changed sometimes almost entirely. On the other hand religion is not evolving, it's the same books as before, there is nothing new to it and theists never EVER will admit they are wrong on ANYTHING. Even though it is proven beyond a doubt that ghosts, demons or witches are not real they still wont admit it.

Most of the research’s coming out mostly disprove what others brought and now we don’t even know what actually to believe because two research teams will do the same experimentation and come out two totally different results. The health of a person is more important than any religion out there.

[CoinCube]

Science discovered that your Christian ideology is wrong by discovering that the Earth is not flat and that Earth is not in the center of the universe, that humans evolved from the same common ancestor as did chimpanzees not from dirt in case of a man and rib bone in case of a woman.

Are you absolutely certain the world is not flat and humans cannot trace our common ancestor to dirt? If you are you may need learn more about science.

Scientists believe that we may have had our beginnings in dirt
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2488467/Scientists-believe-beginnings-CLAY.html

Scientists shows that the world may be 2-dimensional aka flat
https://m.phys.org/news/2017-01-reveals-substantial-evidence-holographic-universe.html

Your comparison of atrocities done by Christians to those  done by Communists tells me you are scratching the bottom of the barrel for arguments.  I hope you are not justifying murders with other murders that will happen in the future.  This 'argument' is the same argument Islamists are using to justify atrocities done in the name of their religion.
"Look Christians did crusades so why are you singling us out?".

That is not a defence.  

There is never a defense for evil it just is.

However, we can do things to mitigate evil and reduce its hold on the world or we can do things that strengthen evil making the word darker.

The evil is inherent in humanity. The religion be it Communism, Christianity, or Confucianism either suppresses that evil or gives it free reign to manifest.

Your error is one of judgement. You have misclassified one of the best tools for suppressing evil as the cause of evil.

History does not support this conclusion.

You literally object when I say don't teach children nonsense from the Bible.  Not only you object, you think you are justified.  Your logic follows the same rationalization the prosecutors of Giordano Bruno followed.

You amuse me af_newbie so certain in your self righteousness that you are willing to criminalize the views of your opponents.

On top of that you have the brazen audacity to imply that by objecting to your desire to impose totalitarian and ideological tyranny I am somehow persecuting you.

I have stated on multiple occasions that you should be free to believe whatever you want to believe and teach your children what you believe to be true. Your logic is twisted and incoherent.

[CoinCube]

Scientists believe that we may have had our beginnings in dirt
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2488467/Scientists-believe-beginnings-CLAY.html

Scientists shows that the world may be 2-dimensional aka flat
https://m.phys.org/news/2017-01-reveals-substantial-evidence-holographic-universe.html

You can cling to your Bronze Age myth all you want.

We have evolved not were made from dirt.
...

BTW, I am 100% sure we live on a globe not a flat disk as your scripture says.

And I am am 100% sure you didn't bother to read or understand what I just said.

[BADecker]

I  think, there are some reasons why people are religious but don't believe in God.

1. Ignorance. For some people it's very hard just to think about it. They were told that God existed and they had to go to church or mosque for praying or something like that. And that's all. They can't even make an effort to make their brain work and realize that God is working and showing Himself in nature all around them.

2. Weakness. Nobody easily accepts the fact that they will die someday and it will be the very end for them in this life. So, they don't look for a life after the death in the Heaven or in the Hell. Also, everyone encounters with problems and not everyone can solve them. Some people think that praying, going to church or something like that will miraculously help them. Sometimes such religion works like a placebo. But a strong or, at least, clever person clearly understands that even he, himself, cannot help himself, and the One his life depends on is God, alone... not he, himself, or even other people. Everybody should understand it - nobody,  but only God rules your life through cause and effect.

3. Hypocrisy. Some people don't do bad things only because they are afraid of God's punishment. Some people do good things just because they wait for be awarded by God. But many others realize that the only reason why they make good things, is because God "wrote" His laws in their hearts, and confirmed them in religious books, especially the Bible. And all you need for not doing bad things is your conscience and moral rules that God wrote in your heart starting with Adam, the first man He made, and handed down through procreation to all people, in their hearts and minds. But certainly not the rules that were written by people in governments, starting today, and going back to antiquity.

4. Indoctrination. People are born into religion of their parents. Religion is taught to them since birth. Culture and religion build a worldview that is unshakable for most people. Only intellectually strong individuals can break the chain, think for themselves and destroy the good morals taught by their parents and religion in the world, and start to follow the evil religion of their own imagination, and of the imaginations of others who think the same way they do.

[fernandoaleixo]

At last a topic not about spamming and mindless commentaries, as far I understand the bad aspects of modern life, I can't ignore the bad aspects of religion too, in the end all relies in the need of perfect balance.

[Astargath]

I  think, there are some reasons why people are religious but don't believe in God.

1. Ignorance. For some people it's very hard just to think about it. They were told that God existed and they had to go to church or mosque for praying or something like that. And that's all. They can't even make an effort to make their brain work and realize that God is working and showing Himself in nature all around them.

2. Weakness. Nobody easily accepts the fact that they will die someday and it will be the very end for them in this life. So, they don't look for a life after the death in the Heaven or in the Hell. Also, everyone encounters with problems and not everyone can solve them. Some people think that praying, going to church or something like that will miraculously help them. Sometimes such religion works like a placebo. But a strong or, at least, clever person clearly understands that even he, himself, cannot help himself, and the One his life depends on is God, alone... not he, himself, or even other people. Everybody should understand it - nobody,  but only God rules your life through cause and effect.

3. Hypocrisy. Some people don't do bad things only because they are afraid of God's punishment. Some people do good things just because they wait for be awarded by God. But many others realize that the only reason why they make good things, is because God "wrote" His laws in their hearts, and confirmed them in religious books, especially the Bible. And all you need for not doing bad things is your conscience and moral rules that God wrote in your heart starting with Adam, the first man He made, and handed down through procreation to all people, in their hearts and minds. But certainly not the rules that were written by people in governments, starting today, and going back to antiquity.

4. Indoctrination. People are born into religion of their parents. Religion is taught to them since birth. Culture and religion build a worldview that is unshakable for most people. Only intellectually strong individuals can break the chain, think for themselves and destroy the good morals taught by their parents and religion in the world, and start to follow the evil religion of their own imagination, and of the imaginations of others who think the same way they do.

1. Hiding in the bushes, right?

2. If god rules my life then I should not be held accountable for any of my actions

3. ''God "wrote" His laws in their hearts, and confirmed them in religious books'' God confirms that killing someone in the sabbath is ok, that's not on my mind. God confirms slavery is ok, that's not on my mind either. You sure about this badecker?

4. Or start by acknowledging that slavery is wrong or discrimination against homosexuals is wrong.

[BADecker]

I  think, there are some reasons why people are religious but don't believe in God.

1. Ignorance. For some people it's very hard just to think about it. They were told that God existed and they had to go to church or mosque for praying or something like that. And that's all. They can't even make an effort to make their brain work and realize that God is working and showing Himself in nature all around them.

2. Weakness. Nobody easily accepts the fact that they will die someday and it will be the very end for them in this life. So, they don't look for a life after the death in the Heaven or in the Hell. Also, everyone encounters with problems and not everyone can solve them. Some people think that praying, going to church or something like that will miraculously help them. Sometimes such religion works like a placebo. But a strong or, at least, clever person clearly understands that even he, himself, cannot help himself, and the One his life depends on is God, alone... not he, himself, or even other people. Everybody should understand it - nobody,  but only God rules your life through cause and effect.

3. Hypocrisy. Some people don't do bad things only because they are afraid of God's punishment. Some people do good things just because they wait for be awarded by God. But many others realize that the only reason why they make good things, is because God "wrote" His laws in their hearts, and confirmed them in religious books, especially the Bible. And all you need for not doing bad things is your conscience and moral rules that God wrote in your heart starting with Adam, the first man He made, and handed down through procreation to all people, in their hearts and minds. But certainly not the rules that were written by people in governments, starting today, and going back to antiquity.

4. Indoctrination. People are born into religion of their parents. Religion is taught to them since birth. Culture and religion build a worldview that is unshakable for most people. Only intellectually strong individuals can break the chain, think for themselves and destroy the good morals taught by their parents and religion in the world, and start to follow the evil religion of their own imagination, and of the imaginations of others who think the same way they do.

1. Hiding in the bushes, right?

God shows himself on the parts of the bushes that we can see. Now that we have microscopes, we can see more of God in the parts of the bushes that were hidden before we had microscopes to see them. There are still some parts of God hidden in the parts of the bushes that microscopes are not powerful enough to reveal to us.

To unbelievers, God is hidden everywhere. At the judgment, He will force them to see Him.

2. If god rules my life then I should not be held accountable for any of my actions

He rules your life according to the strength of your faith in Him, in which faith He allows you to exercise some free will. Every living person has some faith in God, even if they don't know it... just to remain alive.

3. ''God "wrote" His laws in their hearts, and confirmed them in religious books'' God confirms that killing someone in the sabbath is ok, that's not on my mind. God confirms slavery is ok, that's not on my mind either. You sure about this badecker?

God being the Owner of everything has the right to do with His property whatever He wishes. You, being an unbeliever, act like you know what God's wishes are, but you really don't.

4. Or start by acknowledging that slavery is wrong or discrimination against homosexuals is wrong.

Since God set down freedom for people to act in good ways, and then He told the people that homosexuality and forced slavery is wrong, He is right in making such rules and laws, because He set everything up, and He owns everything. He has the absolute right to do with everything that which He wishes to do, because He owns it all.

You, on the other hand, would attempt to take God's property away from Him, even if that property is simply to follow His laws that He has the right to make. God offers you some freedom for now. But ultimately, you will lose all freedom that is of any importance... if you don't turn to Jesus salvation in faith.

[BADecker]

Why are you so scared of Atheists?

They are rather nice people once you get to know them...

It's not "scared of atheists." It's "scared for atheists." When you see people drowning in a lake, you try to help them. Atheists are drowning in the lake of fire already, even though it is only being prepared for them. Scared for them. Don't want anyone to die forever in that kind of pain.

[Astargath]

I  think, there are some reasons why people are religious but don't believe in God.

1. Ignorance. For some people it's very hard just to think about it. They were told that God existed and they had to go to church or mosque for praying or something like that. And that's all. They can't even make an effort to make their brain work and realize that God is working and showing Himself in nature all around them.

2. Weakness. Nobody easily accepts the fact that they will die someday and it will be the very end for them in this life. So, they don't look for a life after the death in the Heaven or in the Hell. Also, everyone encounters with problems and not everyone can solve them. Some people think that praying, going to church or something like that will miraculously help them. Sometimes such religion works like a placebo. But a strong or, at least, clever person clearly understands that even he, himself, cannot help himself, and the One his life depends on is God, alone... not he, himself, or even other people. Everybody should understand it - nobody,  but only God rules your life through cause and effect.

3. Hypocrisy. Some people don't do bad things only because they are afraid of God's punishment. Some people do good things just because they wait for be awarded by God. But many others realize that the only reason why they make good things, is because God "wrote" His laws in their hearts, and confirmed them in religious books, especially the Bible. And all you need for not doing bad things is your conscience and moral rules that God wrote in your heart starting with Adam, the first man He made, and handed down through procreation to all people, in their hearts and minds. But certainly not the rules that were written by people in governments, starting today, and going back to antiquity.

4. Indoctrination. People are born into religion of their parents. Religion is taught to them since birth. Culture and religion build a worldview that is unshakable for most people. Only intellectually strong individuals can break the chain, think for themselves and destroy the good morals taught by their parents and religion in the world, and start to follow the evil religion of their own imagination, and of the imaginations of others who think the same way they do.

1. Hiding in the bushes, right?

God shows himself on the parts of the bushes that we can see. Now that we have microscopes, we can see more of God in the parts of the bushes that were hidden before we had microscopes to see them. There are still some parts of God hidden in the parts of the bushes that microscopes are not powerful enough to reveal to us.

To unbelievers, God is hidden everywhere. At the judgment, He will force them to see Him.

2. If god rules my life then I should not be held accountable for any of my actions

He rules your life according to the strength of your faith in Him, in which faith He allows you to exercise some free will. Every living person has some faith in God, even if they don't know it... just to remain alive.

3. ''God "wrote" His laws in their hearts, and confirmed them in religious books'' God confirms that killing someone in the sabbath is ok, that's not on my mind. God confirms slavery is ok, that's not on my mind either. You sure about this badecker?

God being the Owner of everything has the right to do with His property whatever He wishes. You, being an unbeliever, act like you know what God's wishes are, but you really don't.

4. Or start by acknowledging that slavery is wrong or discrimination against homosexuals is wrong.

Since God set down freedom for people to act in good ways, and then He told the people that homosexuality and forced slavery is wrong, He is right in making such rules and laws, because He set everything up, and He owns everything. He has the absolute right to do with everything that which He wishes to do, because He owns it all.

You, on the other hand, would attempt to take God's property away from Him, even if that property is simply to follow His laws that He has the right to make. God offers you some freedom for now. But ultimately, you will lose all freedom that is of any importance... if you don't turn to Jesus salvation in faith.

1. garbage

2. makes no sense

3. ''act like you know what God's wishes are, but you really don't.'' You claimed this: ''God "wrote" His laws in their hearts, and confirmed them in religious books'' You said god wrote his laws in our hearts yet we all know slavery or discrimination against homosexuals is wrong and yet the bible does not.

4. God, as you claim only leaves us with a really small amount of free will. ''in which faith He allows you to exercise some free will'' Therefore someone being gay is something he didn't choose, it was all written by god. Now if you really think that just because you ''own'' something you can do whatever you want with it, you are deeply misguided and have 0 morals. We don't allow people to kill their dogs or children just because they ''own'' them, didn't your parents teach you anything? You might be a psychopath.

[BADecker]

I  think, there are some reasons why people are religious but don't believe in God.

1. Ignorance. For some people it's very hard just to think about it. They were told that God existed and they had to go to church or mosque for praying or something like that. And that's all. They can't even make an effort to make their brain work and realize that God is working and showing Himself in nature all around them.

2. Weakness. Nobody easily accepts the fact that they will die someday and it will be the very end for them in this life. So, they don't look for a life after the death in the Heaven or in the Hell. Also, everyone encounters with problems and not everyone can solve them. Some people think that praying, going to church or something like that will miraculously help them. Sometimes such religion works like a placebo. But a strong or, at least, clever person clearly understands that even he, himself, cannot help himself, and the One his life depends on is God, alone... not he, himself, or even other people. Everybody should understand it - nobody,  but only God rules your life through cause and effect.

3. Hypocrisy. Some people don't do bad things only because they are afraid of God's punishment. Some people do good things just because they wait for be awarded by God. But many others realize that the only reason why they make good things, is because God "wrote" His laws in their hearts, and confirmed them in religious books, especially the Bible. And all you need for not doing bad things is your conscience and moral rules that God wrote in your heart starting with Adam, the first man He made, and handed down through procreation to all people, in their hearts and minds. But certainly not the rules that were written by people in governments, starting today, and going back to antiquity.

4. Indoctrination. People are born into religion of their parents. Religion is taught to them since birth. Culture and religion build a worldview that is unshakable for most people. Only intellectually strong individuals can break the chain, think for themselves and destroy the good morals taught by their parents and religion in the world, and start to follow the evil religion of their own imagination, and of the imaginations of others who think the same way they do.

1. Hiding in the bushes, right?

God shows himself on the parts of the bushes that we can see. Now that we have microscopes, we can see more of God in the parts of the bushes that were hidden before we had microscopes to see them. There are still some parts of God hidden in the parts of the bushes that microscopes are not powerful enough to reveal to us.

To unbelievers, God is hidden everywhere. At the judgment, He will force them to see Him.

2. If god rules my life then I should not be held accountable for any of my actions

He rules your life according to the strength of your faith in Him, in which faith He allows you to exercise some free will. Every living person has some faith in God, even if they don't know it... just to remain alive.

3. ''God "wrote" His laws in their hearts, and confirmed them in religious books'' God confirms that killing someone in the sabbath is ok, that's not on my mind. God confirms slavery is ok, that's not on my mind either. You sure about this badecker?

God being the Owner of everything has the right to do with His property whatever He wishes. You, being an unbeliever, act like you know what God's wishes are, but you really don't.

4. Or start by acknowledging that slavery is wrong or discrimination against homosexuals is wrong.

Since God set down freedom for people to act in good ways, and then He told the people that homosexuality and forced slavery is wrong, He is right in making such rules and laws, because He set everything up, and He owns everything. He has the absolute right to do with everything that which He wishes to do, because He owns it all.

You, on the other hand, would attempt to take God's property away from Him, even if that property is simply to follow His laws that He has the right to make. God offers you some freedom for now. But ultimately, you will lose all freedom that is of any importance... if you don't turn to Jesus salvation in faith.

1. garbage

Why in the world do you think science is garbage? Because it allows you to post your trash in the forum?

2. makes no sense

We are coming to understand that about you.

3. ''act like you know what God's wishes are, but you really don't.'' You claimed this: ''God "wrote" His laws in their hearts, and confirmed them in religious books'' You said god wrote his laws in our hearts yet we all know slavery or discrimination against homosexuals is wrong and yet the bible does not.

Some people have the need to be slaves. You would take their freedom away? You are missing a lot about Bible slavery.

Discrimination against homosexuals is right when it is done out of love. Why encourage them on their way to destruction in their homosexual sin by befriending them in it?

4. God, as you claim only leaves us with a really small amount of free will. ''in which faith He allows you to exercise some free will'' Therefore someone being gay is something he didn't choose, it was all written by god. Now if you really think that just because you ''own'' something you can do whatever you want with it, you are deeply misguided and have 0 morals. We don't allow people to kill their dogs or children just because they ''own'' them, didn't your parents teach you anything? You might be a psychopath.

It isn't the feelings of being gay that are wrong if they are part of a person's makeup. It's the carrying out of those feelings in the form of homosexual acts that is wrong.

If the gay person had faith in God just a little more, he would be given strength by God to overcome his homosexual urges. His life might be a life of "pain," somewhat. But God helps those who place their trust and faith in Him.

If you are talking about my ownership of something, why? God's ownership of everything is different than my ownership of things. I have no more right (even if I have the ability) to go against God's directions any more than anyone else. And because such isn't my intent, and because God uses my faith in Him to become a better person all the time, and because God forgives me for my mistakes because of my Jesus-salvation faith that He strengthens in me, I am forgiven for the wrong and helped to do the right more and more.

The thing you really need to do is to formally ask God to force you to become a believer in Him. Be serious, and ask it for real.

At the same time, if you have no Jesus salvation faith in you, you have understanding of what is right only because of the residual of the laws that God wrote in your heart that still remain in you. Certainly you have some rightness regarding how these laws make you act, but by not honoring God above everything, you are breaking the greatest of these laws. And it is intentional with you. Ask that prayer suggested in the previous paragraph.

[Astargath]

''Some people have the need to be slaves. You would take their freedom away? You are missing a lot about Bible slavery.

Discrimination against homosexuals is right when it is done out of love. Why encourage them on their way to destruction in their homosexual sin by befriending them in it?''

The definition of a slave is that they don't have freedom, that's why they are called slaves in the first place. You can't argue that a slave chose to be a slave because then he wouldn't be a slave. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/slave

''It's the carrying out of those feelings in the form of homosexual acts that is wrong.'' I'm wondering badecker, do you ever question your beliefs? Why do you think that carrying those feelings in the form of homosexuality is wrong, is there any objective argument for that? I don't see what's wrong with it.

''The thing you really need to do is to formally ask God to force you to become a believer in Him. Be serious, and ask it for real.'' I did when I was a believer and he didn't respond, so.. yeah.

[BADecker]

''Some people have the need to be slaves. You would take their freedom away? You are missing a lot about Bible slavery.

Discrimination against homosexuals is right when it is done out of love. Why encourage them on their way to destruction in their homosexual sin by befriending them in it?''

The definition of a slave is that they don't have freedom, that's why they are called slaves in the first place. You can't argue that a slave chose to be a slave because then he wouldn't be a slave. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/slave

The point isn't about slaves becoming slaves. The point is about free people volunteering to be slaves. Exodus 21:16:

Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper's possession.

See more at http://biblereasons.com/kidnapping/.

''It's the carrying out of those feelings in the form of homosexual acts that is wrong.'' I'm wondering badecker, do you ever question your beliefs? Why do you think that carrying those feelings in the form of homosexuality is wrong, is there any objective argument for that? I don't see what's wrong with it.

Everything in nature has a purpose. Even evolution says that. There is no purpose in homosexuality.

Leviticus 20:13:

If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Romans 1:26,27:

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

For additional Bible passages, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_homosexuality#Romans_1:26-27.

''The thing you really need to do is to formally ask God to force you to become a believer in Him. Be serious, and ask it for real.'' I did when I was a believer and he didn't respond, so.. yeah.

At that time you didn't have all the Bible training that you have received just in this forum, alone. Be serious about it, and try it again. Of course, why would you want to? You are locked in to your own self-destruction, all the while blaming someone else. But... if you don't change, God Himself, in the judgment, will prove to you that it was you, not He.

[Astargath]

''Some people have the need to be slaves. You would take their freedom away? You are missing a lot about Bible slavery.

Discrimination against homosexuals is right when it is done out of love. Why encourage them on their way to destruction in their homosexual sin by befriending them in it?''

The definition of a slave is that they don't have freedom, that's why they are called slaves in the first place. You can't argue that a slave chose to be a slave because then he wouldn't be a slave. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/slave

The point isn't about slaves becoming slaves. The point is about free people volunteering to be slaves. Exodus 21:16:

Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper's possession.

See more at http://biblereasons.com/kidnapping/.

''It's the carrying out of those feelings in the form of homosexual acts that is wrong.'' I'm wondering badecker, do you ever question your beliefs? Why do you think that carrying those feelings in the form of homosexuality is wrong, is there any objective argument for that? I don't see what's wrong with it.

Everything in nature has a purpose. Even evolution says that. There is no purpose in homosexuality.

Leviticus 20:13:

If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Romans 1:26,27:

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

For additional Bible passages, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_homosexuality#Romans_1:26-27.

''The thing you really need to do is to formally ask God to force you to become a believer in Him. Be serious, and ask it for real.'' I did when I was a believer and he didn't respond, so.. yeah.

At that time you didn't have all the Bible training that you have received just in this forum, alone. Be serious about it, and try it again. Of course, why would you want to? You are locked in to your own self-destruction, all the while blaming someone else. But... if you don't change, God Himself, in the judgment, will prove to you that it was you, not He.

And here I thought that killing was wrong. ''You shall not murder.'' yet the bible tells you to kill other people all the time, amazing.

''Everything in nature has a purpose. Even evolution says that. There is no purpose in homosexuality.'' Quoting evolution? Evolution does not say that everything in nature has a purpose. You are ok with killing homosexuals just because of that? Psychopath indeed. You never answered what's wrong with it, tho. You just said everything in nature has a purpose. Should we also kill people that are born with problems because they are not part of a good evolution? Maybe we should start murdering everyone with defects, what the fuck is wrong with your mind?

''Be serious about it, and try it again'' I can't be more serious now than I was back then when I truly believed in god and he didn't answer.

[CoinCube]

PROMISCUITY & CIVILIZATION
https://illimitablemen.com/tag/social-collapse/

“Civilization is like a thin layer of ice upon a deep ocean of chaos and darkness.” – Werner Herzog
...
2.) Individuals, Families & Civilization:

Property rights, law, marriage – all these things were invented to stabilise civilization by exerting environmental pressure on human instincts. Without such things, we revert to a base tribalism: violence and petty territorial barbarianism.

The family unit is a prerequisite for the functioning of more complex social order. One cannot have committees, courts, institutions, panels, religions or even nations without first establishing family.

As the individual bonds with the family, the family bonds with the civilization it inhabits. But individuals deprived the bonds of family by outcome of immutable social factors are often at odds with civilization. Such individuals give up on community, opting for a more parasitic survival strategy. They are the shameless narcissists, the angry barbarians and each and every shade of dysfunction there between. Scarcely do such people care for civilization. And how can we expect them to care for something as grand and abstract as civilization when such individuals were never fully subject to the bonds of family? How does one come to love something as grand as nation when they had not even the love of kin?

Far from statesmen interested in the public good, vagabonds and the estranged are typically apathetic to the plight of civilization...

Familial estrangement manufactures apathy. This is how promiscuity and divorce undermine social progress, and in turn, civilizational progress. The effects of such action cause pain, which in turn, promotes excessive individualism and a disdain for collectivism. And so the cosmic recurrence that is a need for balance is tipped too far in one direction. That is, an obsession with the self (individualism, narcissism) and a disregard for the whole (collectivism, abstraction.)

Naturally, this is bad for family. And what is bad for family is in turn bad for civilization. Each family represents a building block in the construction of civilization. Families (in the traditional sense of the word) contribute more value to society than lone individuals. Generally speaking, they have better mental health, a higher sense of civic duty, are more productive, and pay more taxes than broken homes or one person households. And this seems only rational. Family is bound by blood, civilization forms around the desires and needs of such bonds. People work harder and produce more when they care for and are cared for by others.

Familial social pressure urges individuals to excel, to make the family proud, not to disappoint. Of course, there are always exceptions. There are highly motivated self starters devoid of family married to nothing but narcissism and money, but such individuals are the exception rather than the rule. In general, the prevailing notion is that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, that families achieve more as units than they would if their members were autonomously estranged. This doesn’t mean that family life is suited to all; it simply “is.”

3.) Freedom & Human Instinct:
...
Civilization does not punish the individual out of sadism, but rather, it punishes destructive behaviour because that behaviour threatens the social order necessary to sustain civilization.
...
Civilization is a process of domestication, without it, we are more beastlike than man. For humans evolved far longer in a pre-civilizational state than in a civilizational one. One need only look at cases of feral children to see how without civil domestication a human becomes a beast. Your ability to indulge your curiosity and intellect to exponential heights, to grow, to expand your mind and to travel vast distances – these things are possible only by the discoveries and sustenance of civilization. As such, to enjoy the furnishings of higher civilization, we are required to, for better or worse, forgo some of our more primitive aspects. Unfettered hedonism is just one of these aspects, although it is popular to think this is a piece of the proverbial cake that can be eaten and enjoyed without consequence.

4.) Promiscuity Threatens Civilization:

Asserting promiscuity costs our civilization dearly. Indeed, in the pursuit of orgasmic pleasure, we have a higher national debt (welfare,) a burgeoning divorce industry, lost boys and girls growing up fatherless, increased mental illness, higher rates of crime etc. I could go on, but I think the point has been sufficiently made. This is more a statement of reality than it is a judgement on the behaviour of those who contribute to the decline. It is what it is and so what will be, will be.

And even in spite of moral considerations, it is most apparent that promiscuity diminishes the quality of a civilization by merit of its societal consequences. Should promiscuity not undermine family it would be all well and good. And so it appears that families cannot insulate themselves with an open-door sexual policy, just as nations cannot insulate themselves with an open-door immigration policy. Civilizations that do not protect their culture lose their culture. In truth, a family is a micro-civilization. It has its own rules, customs, politics and opinions distinct from the larger culture. A strong family, much like a strong nation, is therefore selective rather than liberal in who it allows into its domain.

And this is the incredible thing about the social engineers who compose much the intelligentsia of western civilization. They ignore the history of human social development in favour of pursuing ever-evolving obscurities dreamt up in the solitary detachedness of the ivory tower.

A man’s innate power is in his bodily strength and logic, a woman’s, in her bodily beauty and cunning. The social engineers ignore such immutable human intricacies in their egalitarian idealism. The social contract is the set of social rules that makes civilization possible, social engineers create and perpetuate ideologies which alter the terms of said contract, damaging civilization by swapping what works with what is desired to work. Swapping what is functional if imperfect, with what is dysfunctional and even less perfect. Then, quite satirically, it labels this regression progress.

5.) Religion Subjugates Promiscuity:

Almost every religious institution to ever dominate the hearts and minds of a society has preached quite mightily the importance of monogamy. Religion..., is therefore not only a pre-science way of explaining reality, but likewise a civilizational mechanism for social order... Human instinct is not without fault, and thus by merit of its destructive aspects will undo civilization if left unchecked. Religion inherently acknowledges the flawed nature of the human character.

[BADecker]

''Some people have the need to be slaves. You would take their freedom away? You are missing a lot about Bible slavery.

Discrimination against homosexuals is right when it is done out of love. Why encourage them on their way to destruction in their homosexual sin by befriending them in it?''

The definition of a slave is that they don't have freedom, that's why they are called slaves in the first place. You can't argue that a slave chose to be a slave because then he wouldn't be a slave. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/slave

The point isn't about slaves becoming slaves. The point is about free people volunteering to be slaves. Exodus 21:16:

Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper's possession.

See more at http://biblereasons.com/kidnapping/.

''It's the carrying out of those feelings in the form of homosexual acts that is wrong.'' I'm wondering badecker, do you ever question your beliefs? Why do you think that carrying those feelings in the form of homosexuality is wrong, is there any objective argument for that? I don't see what's wrong with it.

Everything in nature has a purpose. Even evolution says that. There is no purpose in homosexuality.

Leviticus 20:13:

If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Romans 1:26,27:

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

For additional Bible passages, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_homosexuality#Romans_1:26-27.

''The thing you really need to do is to formally ask God to force you to become a believer in Him. Be serious, and ask it for real.'' I did when I was a believer and he didn't respond, so.. yeah.

At that time you didn't have all the Bible training that you have received just in this forum, alone. Be serious about it, and try it again. Of course, why would you want to? You are locked in to your own self-destruction, all the while blaming someone else. But... if you don't change, God Himself, in the judgment, will prove to you that it was you, not He.

And here I thought that killing was wrong. ''You shall not murder.'' yet the bible tells you to kill other people all the time, amazing.

''Everything in nature has a purpose. Even evolution says that. There is no purpose in homosexuality.'' Quoting evolution? Evolution does not say that everything in nature has a purpose. You are ok with killing homosexuals just because of that? Psychopath indeed. You never answered what's wrong with it, tho. You just said everything in nature has a purpose. Should we also kill people that are born with problems because they are not part of a good evolution? Maybe we should start murdering everyone with defects, what the fuck is wrong with your mind?

''Be serious about it, and try it again'' I can't be more serious now than I was back then when I truly believed in god and he didn't answer.

Relax. It's okay. Jesus still loves you. He took a lot worse from the guys who nailed Him to the cross. And He arose on the third day just to conquer all evil.

Come on and place your trust in Him. His religion for you is the best... certainly a lot better than your own. You can do it, even though the diseases you have from your homosexuality are destroying you. Rather, destroy the homosexuality in yourself so that you live.

It's called health and religion. Don't sell yourself so short. Jesus loves you.