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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26390361 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
Karartma1
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June 16, 2018, 07:39:09 AM

(snipped for relevance)

I don't see exchanges, devs and users complaining how flawed Segwit it, nobody lost money ore saw critical errors.  I only see that bullshit in the Bcash camp.

Can you provide me technical arguments/proof why Segwit is 'flawed' ore show it at the Github?

Yes. Fungibility.
What's the issue with fungibility that's so specific to segwit?

As I posted between there and here, Segwit creates three classes of Bitcoins. Each with distinctly different exposure to security vulnerabilities.  
1) Those that are completely free of any Segwit taint all the way back to their constituent coinbase transactions;
2) Those that are not currently output from a Segwit transaction, but have Segwit taint between here and their constituent coinbase transactions; and
3) Those that are the output of a Segwit transaction.

Quote
Quote
Reliance on miners not to revert to 'anyonecanspend' - an incentive for which only increases over time.
That is, reliance on miners not to try a 51% attack. Does this imply the chain without segwit is invulnerable to 51% attacks?

No. But without Segwit, all miners were able to do with a 51% attack is roll back transactions. They were unable to steal funds. If miners choose to revert to considering Segwit transactions as anyonecanspend transactions, then they can claim every one of the outputs of all those anyonecanspend transactions for themselves. As over time, transactions tainted by Segwit is a monotonically increasing count, the incentive to roll back to Satoshi rules is ever-increasing. And the funny thing is that this would arguably not be stealing. After all, Segwit is said to be compatible, right? All the miners would be doing to claim these funds is to revert to the previous rule set. That's compatible.



The risk you are mentioning here is somewhat "real" but it is decreasing as more funds get moved to segwit addresses. It was a real concern in the beginning as it would have been a (remote) possibility that miners would do as you say. In fact, even if I believed Segwit was a favourable upgrade I was very cautious to NOT move my funds to Segwit addresses until many months later.

Currently, with so much funds already moved into Segwit addresses IF miners decided to stole any Segwit address this is what would happen:

- A fork between the consensus chain and the stolen one.
- A drop in price to almost zero on the stolen one.
- A considerable drop in price on the consensus chain too.

... And basically a major drop in ALL cryptocurrency market as confidence and trust on the main cryptocurrency and its foundations would be severely harmed.

Or maybe it would just be that noone would give any value to the forked (stolen funds) chain and the crisis would not be as deep... but, in any case, whomever carried out that sort of attack (necessarily a main player in crypto mining) would end in a useless (no value) chain and be economically harmed in every way on its core business.

Also take into account that exchanges can be hit by a 51% attack in the sense of double spending BUT they are not vulnerable to this type of attack. Why? Because their wallet software would NOT acknowledge the "anyonecanspend" spoofed tx's no matter how many hashrate decides to support the rogue chain. (If I am wrong in this point please enlighten me).

So, still a 51% "double spending" attack -while hugely improbable in Bitcoin for many reasons- is a (orders of magnitude) bigger "vulnerability" than a segwit "anyonecanspend" attack right now.


Thanks both, interesting. Now I remember why I waited before using SegWit like addresses.
JayJuanGee
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June 16, 2018, 08:22:51 AM
Merited by doc12 (1)

(snipped for relevance)

I don't see exchanges, devs and users complaining how flawed Segwit it, nobody lost money ore saw critical errors.  I only see that bullshit in the Bcash camp.

Can you provide me technical arguments/proof why Segwit is 'flawed' ore show it at the Github?

Yes. Fungibility.
What's the issue with fungibility that's so specific to segwit?

As I posted between there and here, Segwit creates three classes of Bitcoins. Each with distinctly different exposure to security vulnerabilities. 
1) Those that are completely free of any Segwit taint all the way back to their constituent coinbase transactions;
2) Those that are not currently output from a Segwit transaction, but have Segwit taint between here and their constituent coinbase transactions; and
3) Those that are the output of a Segwit transaction.


Get the fuck out of here with your BIG BLOCKER distraction talking points - now trying to pervert the concept of fungibility.

Just because a coin is being used in a specific way that does not make such coin more or less fungible than if such coin is used in another way.

The concept of fungibility goes to a kind of blacklisting of coins that cause some coins to be less spendible than others, and there is no fucking blacklisting going on through segwit or through lightning network...

So once again.. get the fuck out of here with your nonsensical misleading assertions.





Why don't we focus upon these issues first, before moving on? Note that these are all recognized as attack vectors by all who have studied the matter. The only controversy is in the probability of these flaws actually ever being invoked.

The primary attack vectors on bitcoin have been bcashers and big blocker nutjobs.  Segwit was adopted through consensus mechanisms, and lightning network is voluntarily being worked upon in a quasi-test phase, and surely utilizing the features of segwit in order to be more powerful... There seems to be a lot of consensus behind building upon lightning network that will likely be voluntary for a considerable amount of time, that will likely become bigger and BIGGER as adoption increases and as it continues testing and working out any possible bugs.  Sure some BIG BLOCKER nutjobs are going to continue to exaggerate negative speculation, like you seem to be doing, and to spread disinformation about supposed catastrophes of lightning network in order to pump their stupid-ass and largely non-substantiated negative talking points.
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June 16, 2018, 08:31:09 AM

Quote
What is intrigueing me for some time already is the name of the ceo of finexed and Tether : "Van De Velde". That is so Flemish as can be, so I wonder... .


I actually tought he was Dutch.

Price seems to have stopped climbing...stabilizing? Huh
El duderino_
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June 16, 2018, 09:34:46 AM

WHO would be ready for weeks and weeks of green dildo's ?? ?? Huh
alevlaslo
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June 16, 2018, 10:35:18 AM



https://forklog.com/zanimatelnaya-geometriya-na-rynke-kriptovalyut-obzor-populyarnyh-patternov-tehanaliza/
Ludwig Von
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June 16, 2018, 11:23:36 AM
Merited by jbreher (1)

Quote
What is intrigueing me for some time already is the name of the ceo of finexed and Tether : "Van De Velde". That is so Flemish as can be, so I wonder... .


I actually tought he was Dutch.

Price seems to have stopped climbing...stabilizing? Huh

A Hollander with a Flemish name, ok we will see them try to do the same trick again... .  Grin
BTCMILLIONAIRE
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June 16, 2018, 11:52:47 AM

WHO would be ready for weeks and weeks of green dildo's ?? ?? Huh
The GODL frog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31N892GN4Yk
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June 16, 2018, 12:10:03 PM

Quote
What is intrigueing me for some time already is the name of the ceo of finexed and Tether : "Van De Velde". That is so Flemish as can be, so I wonder... .


I actually tought he was Dutch.

Price seems to have stopped climbing...stabilizing? Huh

A Hollander with a Flemish name, ok we will see them try to do the same trick again... .  Grin

lols, he must have run away during the spanish inquisition
d_eddie
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June 16, 2018, 12:10:17 PM
Last edit: June 16, 2018, 01:44:59 PM by d_eddie

(quotes snipped and cherry-picked for manipulation) /s

Can you provide me technical arguments/proof why Segwit is 'flawed' ore show it at the Github?

Yes. Fungibility.
What's the issue with fungibility that's so specific to segwit?

As I posted between there and here, Segwit creates three classes of Bitcoins. Each with distinctly different exposure to security vulnerabilities.  
1) Those that are completely free of any Segwit taint all the way back to their constituent coinbase transactions;
2) Those that are not currently output from a Segwit transaction, but have Segwit taint between here and their constituent coinbase transactions; and
3) Those that are the output of a Segwit transaction.
Only type-1 coins have a special status. Turning any coin into type-2 or type-3 is trivial. So does that make blacklisting easier?

Reliance on miners not to revert to 'anyonecanspend' - an incentive for which only increases over time.
That is, reliance on miners not to try a 51% attack. Does this imply the chain without segwit is invulnerable to 51% attacks?
No. But without Segwit, all miners were able to do with a 51% attack is roll back transactions. They were unable to steal funds.
I think @bitserve addressed this point better than I could.


Why don't we focus upon these issues first, before moving on?
So I assume that's it. I wanted to assess the full import of the terrible peril we've chosen to stick our heads into, so I could cry a little doom before getting bogged down in hairy technical discussions. Discussions that will be disrupted by friendly invitations such as the following.

Get the fuck out of here with your BIG BLOCKER distraction talking points - now trying to pervert the concept of fungibility.
(snip)
get the fuck out of here with your nonsensical misleading assertions.

I would have liked to include some quote with "nutjob" or "ratt's ass". Maybe next time. You still get the picture  Tongue
gembitz
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June 16, 2018, 02:30:51 PM

Smiley



^dogeshit coins are best.. doge base markets are steaming pile =) weeeee


    MAYBE [DOGE:BTC] COULD HELP PUT AN END TO THE GRUESOME ORIENTAL DOGMEAT FESTIVALS !!?  

Tongue Cry Shocked

https://www.onegreenplanet.org/news/join-movement-stop-yulin-dog-meat-festival/

===> JOIN US!!
xhomerx10
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June 16, 2018, 02:42:54 PM

I was in Toronto at the beginning of the month. Had a great meal at Hy's downtown. Don't know why I didn't think to look any of y'all up.

 Nice.  Hy's is a classic.  When I used to live in TO (Yonge and St. Clair area), I would not have had the money to eat there.  Well, I might have but I would have had to forgo a few necessities... such as rent money Wink  I guess I'll be dating myself but I paid $50 a week for a room with a private bath and shared cooking facilities; needless to say, I ate out frequently.  If I splurged, it would have been at The Old Spaghetti Factory, The Pickle Barrel or Mr. GreenJeans (Eaton's center).  The one time I went to a steakhouse in Toronto, I took a girl (before we went to the Queen/Billy Squier concert), and the maître D' looked at us and said (after looking down at my running shoes) "This is a dining room you know!" to which I replied "Yes, I know."  In hindsight, I wish he had said, "You really can't afford this, my friend", because I had to spend my souvenir t-shirt money on dinner.  It was a good steak but the bill and tip was nearly two weeks rent money - I ate a lot of peanut butter sandwiches over the next couple of weeks.


 It would be difficult for me to get downtown on a whim since I'm in the GTA, I work a weird continental shift and my wife has enrolled my daughter into every extracurricular activity known to man (and possibly some unknown to man) but I could try.  I think it would be cool to meet some of the faces behind the names.
Ludwig Von
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June 16, 2018, 02:43:25 PM

Quote
What is intrigueing me for some time already is the name of the ceo of finexed and Tether : "Van De Velde". That is so Flemish as can be, so I wonder... .


I actually tought he was Dutch.

Price seems to have stopped climbing...stabilizing? Huh

A Hollander with a Flemish name, ok we will see them try to do the same trick again... .  Grin

lols, he must have run away during the spanish inquisition

Aha, you know about our history... . And that subsequent the Hollanders became fameous as pirates, sea robbers and mercenaries and that they still have that in their genes... .  Wink Wink
gembitz
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June 16, 2018, 02:46:26 PM

Quote
What is intrigueing me for some time already is the name of the ceo of finexed and Tether : "Van De Velde". That is so Flemish as can be, so I wonder... .


I actually tought he was Dutch.

Price seems to have stopped climbing...stabilizing? Huh

A Hollander with a Flemish name, ok we will see them try to do the same trick again... .  Grin

lols, he must have run away during the spanish inquisition

Aha, you know about our history... . And that subsequent the Hollanders became fameous as pirates, sea robbers and mercenaries and that they still have that in their genes... .  Wink Wink

^we came for your BTCBTC tulips =)
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June 16, 2018, 03:07:47 PM


 I like to have at least 3 points touching the lines I draw and if I zoom out on a 3 day trend, I see this:



 Which looks like a 4th of July fireworks in conjunction with a Carolina Country Music Festival followed by the New Moon on July 6th! ymmv
 
edit: shrinking the quoted image
edit2: removing extra space
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June 16, 2018, 03:34:46 PM
Merited by STT (1), Wekkel (1)

Good morning all.

Bitcoin has been trading in a increasingly narrow range over the last 24 hours as volume has fallen. This is usually a indication of approaching higher volatility, however with market sentiment down I am unsure how much upside potential there is going to be. A key resistance point is still at $6.95k and Bulls have been unable or unwilling to challenge this area. On the flip side..Bears appear to have run out of steam to push prices down past a key support level of $6.25k, leaving traders stuck in a fairly shallow channel.


1h
Sideways in the short term until late Sunday, early Monday morning.


4h
Still clinging to the tenkan-sen but well below cloud cover, there was a downward breakout from a pennant this morning. Again, bears seem to be low on ammo to drive the price down farther.


D
In what I would call the short to mid-range time frame, bitcoin's price appears to be heading for a slight uptick over the next couple of weeks. Indicating that at or around the beginning of July will most likely be our summer time high.

#dyor
UnDerDoG81
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June 16, 2018, 03:43:15 PM

Edit: I'm adding this quote from Eric Meltzer of INBlockchain because its a slow day here:

Quote
As a jew, I find the existence of basically unseizable money outside of state control massively comforting. To jews, the state is an unpredictable monster that flips out every century or so. Having the ability to leave without leaving everything behind is key.”

What a joke of a quote.  The Jews always attempt to form a state within a state of their host nation (5th column) and enslave the native inhabitants through usury.  This is why the Jews have been kicked out of every single country they've ever attempted to infilitrate.  

They're not like Italian, Irish, Asian, or any other type of immigrant.  Their goal is not to integrate, it's an evil cult whose imaginary, made up beliefs claim it's their divine right to rule over and enslave all other humans. Allowing Jews in is the same thing as allowing termites to walk into your house on purpose.  They must always be expelled from wherever they attempt to infest.  For the same reason you do not invite the Charles Manson cult into your house, you do not allow the evil Jewish cult in either.

The scumbag Jew in your quote is pulling the typical Jew lie claiming it's IMPOSSIBLE for Jews ever to be in the wrong and if anyone ever does or says anything against them, the Jew is always the victim and it's never possible the Jews is just receiving blowback for his heinous crimes.  There's no such thing as a Jewish "man".  They do not act like men whatsoever.  They all pull this wretched, extremely female-like 'woe is me, I'm a SJW victim' scam while always being the aggresor against everyone else.

Besides, even if you are a religious nutjob who follows everything from scripture, then if Jesus was legit, that makes Christians the real Jews, and these evil Ashkenazi cult members claiming to be Jews but not the anti-christ. That's why they're referred to as "the synagogue of satan" in religious texts.  It would make sense from a religious point of view since many Satanists and feminists claim Satan is actually a woman representing matriarchy and the Jew displays nothing but the worst of female traits (being weak, pathetic, lying, manipulative) with disdain for anything resembling patriarchy.

Amen. Unfortunately they are already in every country. There were three left. North Korea seems infiltrated, Syria is destroyed. Last none jewish country is Iran.
Ludwig Von
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June 16, 2018, 04:10:13 PM

It 's that time again : holding up the bottom. (Now, I think the previous one, from Infofront, was a bit too heavy, so the upholder would get crushed under it... . What of course, under the right circomstances could be a rather pleasant experience).  Wink Wink
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June 16, 2018, 04:15:08 PM

As I posted between there and here, Segwit creates three classes of Bitcoins. Each with distinctly different exposure to security vulnerabilities. 
1) Those that are completely free of any Segwit taint all the way back to their constituent coinbase transactions;
2) Those that are not currently output from a Segwit transaction, but have Segwit taint between here and their constituent coinbase transactions; and
3) Those that are the output of a Segwit transaction.


now trying to pervert the concept of fungibility.

Just because a coin is being used in a specific way that does not make such coin more or less fungible than if such coin is used in another way.

Geeze, JJG - you need to look up the definition of 'fungible'. Within the three posts preceding yours, 2/3 of them stated that they were cautious of accepting Segwit transactions until they gained some confidence in it. That is definitively a lack of fungibility. A lack of fungibility is in no way limited to some sort of centralized blacklisting.

Quote
Sure some BIG BLOCKER nutjobs are going to continue to exaggerate negative speculation, like you seem to be doing, and to spread disinformation about supposed catastrophes of lightning network in order to pump their stupid-ass and largely non-substantiated negative talking points.

If you want to argue the facts of the matter, step up. I made some assertions of fact. Pony up some counter-arguments. If what I said is 'disinformation', then it should be a simple matter for you to put forth proof that they are false. And I am in no way exaggerating nor claiming catastrophe. I made no value judgement on the matter, and even pointed out that the current debate is how significant these flaws are. All you are doing is bloviating. Buck up or shut up.
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June 16, 2018, 04:26:06 PM
Last edit: June 16, 2018, 04:36:17 PM by jbreher

(quotes snipped and cherry-picked for manipulation) /s

...
I would have liked to include some quote with "nutjob" or "ratt's ass". Maybe next time. You still get the picture  Tongue

So you cede that these issues exist. Great.

This branch of the thread started with someone asking me to name some specific attack vectors which led to me being a Segwit skeptic. You don't seem to think they are significant. I think they may very well be fatal at some future date. Now we understand each other.

Peace out.







(I wonder if we can unroll that stack back to the speculation about paid shillery that prompted my claim of Bitcoin* believer / Segwit skeptic? Thread kind of veered off-course from that)
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June 16, 2018, 04:28:07 PM




Might have some relevance.

Were it not for DOGE's legacy as a joke coin, and its infinite emission schedule.
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